Steve G

Well I spent most of today busy and away from the board for the majority of the day...this was a first in long time. I was well...surprised to see this thread as after last night was thinking along these lines. I spent some a while in the "cartel" thread last night, which when it was over reminded me of a mosh pit from long ago...I voiced my opinions, played some devils advocate and in the end inadvertently [censored] off the Admin team (we're good now Offshore got your PM), and had to take [censored] from someone with 13 posts and 12 minutes as a member here. Now I'm no one special here...by any means. I can't fix watches...I can't do mods and I probably still can't tell whether the CGs are right or wrong on the latest Sub...even after a year and a half as a member here. But...what was once a place to go to chill and learn has now become something completely different. I'm really not sure what's changed I haven't been able to put my finger on it, but it started long before the cartel thread. What's made this place special for me has been the people here...far too many to name but seeing there posts and reading and learning from them has what's kept it fun for me. Hell when I first stumbled here I was in search of not the perfect sub...but a Navi...one of the last reps I finally got ironically. I never heard of Panerai, I now own 7, Vacheron Constantin...what???, I love my Overseas...and I really dig the AR some guys have recently put on that watch. I've spoken to and in a way met people from all over the world...really cool if you ask me. But lately its not fun anymore...sure I love the new reps...love my BCE my new Pam 199...they came at a much higher price than what the dealer was selling them for. I feel the innocence is over for me here..I couldn't even direct the newest newb with certainty where to go for that perfect sub...as the dealer selling it may not be honest after all. And the hardest thing to come to grip with is one of the four in question Ive used repeatidly without incident...but to know they've screwed with some here...well let's just say it's now sort of tainted. So...for now I'm done... not with watches...I still love those...I'm done here for now... Maybe I wear my heart on my sleeve too much...at least that's what my wife tells me...I'll check back and hopefully when the smoke clears the things I've enjoyed here will rise above...The Zigmeister's wonderful movement reviews and teardowns...Bytor's excellent reviews...Pug's humor and wit....and of course Randy's two beautiful Daytona's sitting majestically a top marble Peace and thanks What happened to our innocence --- Did it go out of style? Along with our nivette No longer a child Different eyes see different things Different hearts Beat on different strings

I still agree with you..just playing a little devils advocate. The day they stopped posting product but still paid their "dues" to have dealer status is the day the mods should have thrown them out. I think their might be other politics involved which grant them safe passage here. I can only imagine what kind of influence looms over this very forum and others just like it.

Agreed..Andreww but the Admins and Mods have obviously condoned this, as they have ultimate say...so it's safe to say that the very people that run and moderate this forum are equally as guilty for adding and abetting these dishonest dealers and giving them the opportunity to screw us?

I think the problem with that is the "cartel" in question haven't posted a watch for sale here since Nov 2006, at least Josh and Andrew haven't. They have a website now...they might as well be Replica House we trust them because they once posted and used RWG to sell their wares.

All my automatics have come running...never was the date or time what it should be. And yes the asian movements when working properly are every bit as good as their ETA counterparts. In some cases my Asian 21 J movement Power Reserves outlast ETA off the wrist

The only problem I see with this is that the dealers in question do not hawk their ware here anymore...they have websites. They might still contribute to RWG...but I can't remember the last time Andrew or Josh posted anything for sale here.

yes its there...very nice...could be the first time i've seen this watch and really liked how it looks...could be the nice white dial

Wow...I'm really starting to thing too much about this topic...in my offtime so to speak. We have one real strong point: 1. Accurately represent what it is your selling. Period...that's the issue at hand. If you say Swiss ETA 2824, it better have it. But there is also a lot of other stuff floating through these 21 going on 22 pages...smashing a cartel, [censored] off over the higher prices of reps, who doesn't use their sir name but a western americanized name.... Someone please explain to me if we could snap our fingers and make Josh, Andrew and the others vanish...where would we get these beloved treasures. I know there are other dealers and I'm not naive to think that these "makers" or factories aren't accessable to everyone at some point. But how many people on this board really knows what goes on over in China, in an illegal rep trade which is just one microcasm of a large counterfeit world. I certainly don't and I'd be willing to bet outside of speculation most of us here don't either. Josh, Andrew and the like are there and they are providing our fix for our drug of choice...no different than other illegal drugs. Supply demand...greed and profit. For all we know these guys have "pull" over there able to be the first to supply us or get us supplied. The reps have been getting better, much better in the year alone I've been here. Maybe just maybe they have had something to do with that. Previously we all bitched about QC and flaws, and BAM a recent string of rep home runs...ahhh but at a higher price. [censored] a year ago there wasn't hardly an option for a swiss 7750 or asian 7750 now we have that...but at a higher cost. Now advertising a watch to have X movement and misleading the customers is dead wrong...again speculation as to who knew... dealers or makers... or both in cahoots perhaps. We do know some of us have taken trips to China and come up empty finding these sweet precious reps. Let's also not forget Precious Time's claim to "all solid gold center links"...another dealer that was "mislead" and then mysteriously dissapeared from here with all the others. What happens when the price goes up...do we still buy...well folks if you are going to pony up and pay $1000 for a fake that still has the same old flaws, that's the day I'm out. There is a ceiling. Just because Josh and Andrew now offer "real diamonds in the bezel", is anyone really buying a $1,500 rep...if so please speak up so I can direct you to a doctor Remember there are still people out there paying $1000 for a $50 Rolex Sub...we're spoiled here....real [censored]ing spoiled and sometimes I think we act like it. I digress...I'm still onboard with full honest disclosure of the movements...that's really where the true cost of these watches can really be evaluated...everything else is just aesthetics.

I don't have a large wrist and have the PO Ultimate in Black and one in Orange. I had a 4th Gen 42mm that I sold because I could not stand the gap in the bracelet any longer.

A lot of good points...bottom line is tell the truth and represent the product accurately. I personally haven't had any issues with Joshua, he being my main go to. We have what I feel as a honest business relationship. He's even sent out watches prior to me paying for them. Hell he's even discouraged me from buying some. It's a shame it's come to all this and maybe after 20 pages of comments some change will come....or at least until one of these dealers unveil the new IWC Cousteau....then this thread will dry up real fast as a lot of us will reach for our wallets.

I assume you mean Angus of PureTime, not Precious Time, because his word is not good as gold (literally) as some may recall the TT solid gold [censored]. He may have apologized but never issued any refunds to the best of my knowledge.

This is where I call [censored]. Andrew's right..we don't know all that goes on in this business, lead times to source movements, etc. BUT..when the factory is finally complete with the watch, the DEALER is now obligated to inspect and represent said watch on his respected website accurately. I know some will say...yes but how do we know that the whole lot is reflective of the sample...and I'm assuming there is a sample..I have a feeling that Andrew or Josh may never even see the final watch..I'd like to think they do. But if I buy a watch from a dealer that has some 21 jewel asian movement...then try to unload it on a member claiming it's an ETA, because that's how it was sold to me...I'd be cast out of here, called a liar and a thief. I the seller has to know what I'm selling, I am responsible for representing my wares accurately. It should be no different here.

I will thank Andrew for speaking up and taking part in this discussion. He's always proven to be reasonable and "trusty". We do need these guys to communicate with us..otherwise we really have no way of knowing how it works on the "other side". But The Zigmeister is correct...just accurately describe what's in the watch and take an accurate photograph....seems this would correct a lot..no?

WOW..3 pages since Edge posted less than an hour ago. I think this tread has legs and obviously might just be what's needed to cut through some of the [censored] and pandering. Well done Edge

I for one miss the dealer's input and responses on this board. Once they had the ability to converse among themselves, they seemed to vanish all together. I've personally had no issues with the "cartel", but for the good of the hobby would like to see some change and a move back to honest representations of the watches. Honesty in an illegal business, the irony.

It takes balls to say it, or write it in this case. I kind of agree though...there has been an air of change in the year or more I've been here.

Well an example would be the small school buses that can be seen in the US...they are sometimes referred to as "tart carts" because they usually transported the "special kids" back and forth to school, while the others rode in regular buses. They were also referred to as "taking the short bus" Not very nice and I'm not trying to insult anyone...just clarifying the "tart" expression from what I know. Not sure many woman here would enjoy being called a tart.

Thanks Pug...I actually used wikipedia to look right after I posted that...so I guess I figured correctly...but I sort of new it wasn't choice to use it as a pick up line.

I never really was sure what the term "tart" meant. In the US it's sort of deragatory as an abbreviation of retard. I thought the British meaning was sort of either a tramp or [censored]...

I used to work in NYC on 5th Ave for nearly 10 years. I've seen the guys with the briefcases and even before I knew about our high end reps, i would always regard them as junk. But on two occasions I have had a guy approach me with a white bag and inside was a rolex green box containng a black sub w/papers. he claimed it was just stolen and he was looking to get $300, too good to be true, but of course it looked so real. He eventually would settle for $200. Now the better mind says it isn't real. And today I'm convinced at best it was a high end rep. But that's the closest thing in NY i've ever seen to what we can get here.

It's possible that not all the Navi's are the same..mine came from josh, which is probably the same as andrew's..there is a light AR on it. It's just not as noticable as the planet oceans or some of my panerai's.

Actually your Navi does have "light A/R". I have the same one..well not the serie specialte, but a newer navi nonetheless. If you hold the watch in strong light...actually flourescent light works better for some reason, and tilt it back and forth, you can faintly notice a bluish ring near the outer edge of the crystal. My PAMS have a more obvious light A/R coating, but the Breitlings do have it...just isn't really that noticable.

Actually, if you've done some searching, you'd might come across By-Tor's review of these PO's. The crooked logo is one of the "potential" flaws that occur with this model. Some have it, some don't, and some can just live with it. All the reps have some sort of flaw, some more glaring than most.

Well I've avoided this watch based on all the negative reviews, both by members and movement specialists. I've read all about the issues with the running seconds at six, freeze ups, stoppages, etc. But for some stupid reason I'm still drawn to having one...the meteorite dial no less. So I'd like to hear if any members own any daytonas with a 7750 and actually have some mileage on this movement without suffering any ill effects, thus rendering them with a $300 paperweight. So either sway or persuade me...looking for honest opinions. thanks

I'll just say I don't like it. Even if it was repped with 100% accuracy, I just don't like it.