automatico

"Back in the early days there used to be some sites which sold higher priced reps- maybe half scam, half semi legitimate- I remember ubi talking about buying one of those $1000 reps before he caught on, but that was way back pre-2005 or so." I remember seeing scam sites with different grades of replicas offered at different prices in late 1990s...going up the price scale they called them Asian, Japanese, Italian, and Swiss. I bought a few 'Italian' models for $99. They had DG 28xx or ST6D works and pretty good steel cases with better than average dials and bracelets. 'Swiss' models were $500 and up. 'swisstime.sr' must be the swiss models.

"I have not yet tested to see if a gen 1520/1530 movement will fit." Look at the MBK sticky above, it tells what's what (in my experience).

I hope it brings them to their knees. "Supply & demand..........the cure that works." You are right. Supply and Demand basically rules the world.

...the watch world that is. The RWG Regulars know I am always harping about the "No Parts For You" policies from the major (and minor) watch companies and it seems parts will truly rule the watch world sooner than later. For example, look how much this 1970s rolex movement went for...eBay item number 272311807484 I bought a complete running watch (ref 1500) a few months back with the same movement for less than half that much. Check the asking price for this movement: eBay item number 371691224177 Another example...I have a tutone rolex 15053 'oyster perpetual date' aka 'OPD' (cal 3035) time head on a strap, fresh cleaned with new crystal, mainspring, crown, and hands, no case corrosion at all...I was asking $1250 for it and I often see bare movements (that probably need cleaning) on eBay selling for that much or more. I do not look for vintage parts prices to drop because rolex is rapidly cutting off parts for older models while at the same time vintage models are more popular than ever since rolex went Bling! with their later designs. Imho most of the new stuff looks like Fido's azz. Parts is Parts... Crowns for instance...I still have 80 or 90 nos genuine rolex crowns in blister packs from 1990/2000, mostly steel 5.3mm and 6.0mm plus a few gold in the same sizes. They cost $20 for steel and $35 for gold back when I bought them and now they are going for around $100 each for steel and $125 for gold because rolex no longer sells to shops except for a select few. I saw somewhere that they force 'authorized' repair shops to supply serial numbers for watches they need parts for so they can not sell parts 'out the back door'...do not know if this is true or not but I would not doubt it. As for 7mm submariner crowns, I have 6 or 8 in ss (cost $35 new) and 2 or 3 in gold ($65 new). Now the ss crowns are going for around $125 and gold for $200+. Also have over 150 used crowns aka 'take offs' from years past and now they are going for $25 and up. It's a Good Thing I kept them. Besides simply cutting the parts supply back more and more, it seems they (rolex for example) are raising service costs every year. With the world wide downturn in watch sales, I look for the majors to cut back more and more on parts and keep jacking $ervice price$ forcing watch owners to use 'official repair depots' because of their NPFU policies. Since I bought the crowns, rolex made a design change to what they call 'monoblock' style crowns that are solid ss or gold and not caps over a nickel silver base like older models. So now if someone wants a nos crown to keep their vintage watch 'original', I have the parts. Bend 'em over. No Parts For You and ever rising watch prices are what drove me to F-steins/replicas and now I am rapidly tiring of the hassle of working on mechanical watches in general. Maybe after years of it, I am finally wising up. Any comments on the parts situation?

"..or do like Rolexes & are too embarrassed to acknowledge that they cannot afford to own 1." The truth is I am embarrassed to wear a genuine rolex now. If and when I ever wear a genuine rolex watch (a rare occurrence), I look down at it and tend to see the watch as an overly expensive and famous timepiece but the attitude of the company behind it absolutely kills any thrill. It makes me want to pull a sleeve down over it.

It's a good idea to first try the dial and movement you plan to use in the case (with any original spacers) and see how the stem lines up inside the case tube. You do not need hands, date parts or anything, just the movement, spacer, and dial. Most cartel cases are made for eta 2836/46 in my experience. "Maybe I'm confused but why would thickening the movement ring/ spacer not address stem height?" A thicker dial spacer can make a 2824 as thick as a 2836 to line the stem up but the canon pinion/hour wheel may be too low and the hands will be too close to the dial. The date wheel may also be too far from the dial depending on the DWO thickness. The TC 2824 comes with higher cp/hour wheel etc. "I've searched high and low for a 2846 and low beat 287X and I have pretty much given up." I used a nos swiss eta 2879 a while back and it worked Ok in place of a 2846 with dial foot holes in the same location and same hand sizes...at least it worked for a no date project '1016' using genuine 16220 case. I have not tried one with a DW overlay yet but the DW spacer on a 2879 is made on the top plate (not removable) and the dial might be too close to a DWO. There are still two nos 2879 on eBay as of today but they will need c/o. Item number 172211526543

"Should note that I've had this for a couple years now and have never had any problems until recently." Without the screws the aw assembly usually will not stay in place for long. Look around inside the watch and see if they are somewhere in the guts...or maybe they dropped out when you opened the back. It's a mystery.

It looks like it. http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=484054 Pretty good read. Edit 7-15...now it has spread to VRF: http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1468508903/last-1468584086/View+All

"The PCG 5512/13's mid cases are also slightly thinner (thickness from dial side to caseback side) than the rounded crown guard 5512/5513 mid cases." I measured the thickness of some mid cases (in the center of the case) and a Yuki 5513 was about 5.0mm, an MBK 5513 was about 5.0mm and a DW 5513 was 5.25mm. The DW case did not have a bezel, the other two did so these measurements were not as precise. Funny thing is DW cases look thinner because the tips of the lugs are a little bit thinner than Yuki and MBK cases.

"the cartel sub cases are also a very decent buy these days after they fixed the whole stubby CGs issue" +1 Totally agree. They are a good choice for Eta projects but do not know if a rolex 15xx no date or date movement will fit. If anyone wants to send me an empty (no movement) later cartel case, I will try a rolex 1575 date with 26.5mm Yuki dial and 1520 no date with 26.0mm Yuki dial in the case. They both will not fit the same case but I can see which one might. ...or if anyone is ordering a watch, maybe they can get an extra one for me and I will pay them and post what I find out, I'm in the USA. I tried to order one a few times but my CC would not work on a foreign order.

"Now, you might ask where I got that lovely sacrificial midlink to cobble in there?" I keep a lookout for them on used bracelets of all kinds at yard sales and flea markets. Sometimes you can snag a bracelet with them for $3 or so.

It seems that information on these watches is a closely kept secret. I have read all I could find on the 'net about them and found some info on another replica forum (do not remember which one) about the MBW guy 'George' who was around 10 or so years back and he was one of the main sellers of these watches. 'George' is long gone and the next main source was the shop in the MBK Center and now it seems maybe their watches are not the same as in the past. Looks like the last 'genuine' MBK stock available to RWG members was from 'rolexfinder' but it appears he is having trouble with delivery etc. I bought two MBK 1680 from 'Reggie', and two from members over the past three or four years (5512 and 5513). The base watches (mid case/case back) are all identical, POLEX and all except for the case numbers, dials, and crystals...and the 5512 had a SD bezel. The quality was the same on all of them and I measured the case necks of them all and they were within a couple hundredths mm of genuine spec (28.2mm) and they all have the gasket groove under the crystal retainer bezel. Since the MBK watches are getting so hard to find, I will go with a Yuki case if I need a case for another Frankenstein project with rolex movement or 'higher grade' Eta project. With MBK what you are getting is basically a case, case back, bezel assembly (right or wrong), and a medium quality dial and bracelet with what is now usually an Eta clone. Both my 1680s had new looking swiss Eta 2836, fair dials, and good bracelets but Reggie hand picked them. The 5513 was a case only deal and it was fine, the 5512 had an Eta clone, fair dial, so-so bracelet, and the wrong SD bezel. Since you will need a dial, crystal, case tube/crown, slower beat movement, and probably a bracelet when using an MBK, the Yuki case will not cost much more, if any more after the project is finished. Imho an MBK watch is Ok 'as is' for a daily wear watch as long as the movement is Ok and it has a good bracelet but for a Frankenstein or project needing an 'in spec' case/dial combo, something else would probably serve better. I doubt the new breed of cartel vintage watches have reached the level of MBK but they are a lower cost option. Otoh, if all you can find is the 5514, it might be a good buy if the price is not too high and you can always sell it on the forum.

I made up a couple 5512/13 using DW '5513' cases and took them back apart because the 26.0mm oem spec dials were a bit small in the DW cases leaving a small space between the dial and the 'dial seat' at the front of the case (about .5mm). Today I saw this on VRF about early PCG 5512 and some of them must have had the same space: http://www.network54.com/Forum/207593/thread/1468292473/last-1468326320/View+All So...if some genuine watches were made this way, the dial was only kept in place by the dial screws and were not held down by the dial seat, same as with my DW projects. In the DW cases there is a ledge machined inside the case (same as oem) where the top of the movement plate mounts and this holds the movement securely (along with the case clamps) but the dial is held only by the dial screws. So...maybe anyone with a DW case who wants to make a PCG 5512 out of it can now justify the space around the dial. There is enough meat in the CG to make PCG out of them and the rounded case sides can also add to the 'high mileage' look of an old vintage watch. I'm probably the only fool left with any DW cases though.

"I suppose a service replacement case would be a possibility..." I have seen quite a few of these acrylic quick set cases that were badly corroded so there might be some replacements floating around. The replacement cases are 44----- and 47----- iirc. Since it is a 'Frankenstein' the origin of the case (original or replacement) does not have a whole lot of effect on the value and if the bezel is solid white gold as this type of bezel on a steel watch should be, it will boost the value. I have a high mileage 16014 and I just now looked at it but the serial number is worn off. It still has ORIG ROLEX DESIGN showing on the other end though. Looks like it had a hard life but not much corrosion, I guess that is why I saved it. Since Frankensteins have no papers or history, this type of watch is basically what the seller says it is within reason and the case looks Ok to me too.

"Why not use a Yuki 3135?" I would rather get away from a mechanical movement to something more reliable and does not need constant babysitting to keep it running. Imho the Y3135 is at the lower end of the mech movement scale because of the high buy in price and no parts (same as the genuine item). After all, parts make the world go 'round. Affordable parts that is.

At least buy something like this and fabricate a sturdy case holder of some sort...

...is a Bulova Precisionist type movement with stem position, hand sizes, date offset/font, and dial foot holes same as a rolex 3035/3135 (and maybe one for the Eta 28xx). Then you could store the rolex movement somewhere and wear the watch without having to worry about $1000 tune ups/repairs, running down, dropping it, not keeping time etc. I doubt it will ever happen because it makes too much sense. Guess I'll just have to buy an Accutron II.

Much of the time with replicas, 'gold wrapped' is really just heavier than usual gold plating. Real 'wrapped' gold is a thin layer of gold much like what was used on older 'gold filled' cases, bracelets etc. There is no way to tell what you are getting unless another member recently bought a similar watch from the same seller. There used to be some very good gold and steel bracelets with gold wrapped center links but I do not know if they are still being sold or not. As for cases...most of them today are either heavy gold plated or maybe with a high genuine priced name brand, you might still find some gold filled or gold capped cases. 'Gold capped' is a thin layer of gold pressed and soldered over a base metal case, usually only on the top side. The 1980s rolex 15505 is one example and they had solid gold bezels.

Do not miss out on this bargain... http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROLEX-OYSTER-PERPETUAL-DATEJUST-WATCH-CASE-16013-/262502967930?hash=item3d1e656a7a:g:OzsAAOSwGIRXaNXE The owner worked in a battery acid factory.

I had a few 3035 movements that had the hs get hung up. The 3035 is famous for hung up hs, broken top rotor jewels, and hair springs coming loose from the collet (no fix for detached hs, need a new balance complete). Had quite a few with broken balance staffs too. A lot of rlx stuff ain't that hot imho. In a sane world, quartz watches would have put rolex out of business 35 years ago.

My advice (for what it's worth) is to stay away from these movements. Why? No parts. The only good things about them: 1...a genuine 3035/3135 rolex dial will fit the movement 2...they look somewhat like a 3135. That's it. 'Look somewhat like a 3135' is not much good in a watch with a solid case back so imho the only thing going for them is the genuine dial will fit. The 'old reliable' (Ha!) Asian time and date 21 jewel movements are bad enough but at least you can buy another one for $25/$35 or fix one with parts from another movement. I put parts from three different Seagull ST16 together yesterday to make a knock around runner for a friend. Total cost was $0 because all the movements came from free doa junk. You can't do that with a 3135 clone. The one Yuki sells seems to be the best of the two however. No parts is what eventually kills them all, clone and genuine. The automatic rolex bubbleback was killed off because of no parts and NPFU is quickly killing off the rolex 1030 automatic and 12xx manual winders. Next to go is the rolex 1530/60/70.

"the only solution should be buy 2 dial from Yuki ( one for gen 1570 movement and one for eta 2836 ) choose the better one and sell the other" It's a slippery slope. After a few years of these projects, I have 3 or 4 runners and maybe a dozen in parts. Talk about being $$ under water in faux divers... ...but I am the only 'DW case expert' that I know of.

"I have read that the Cartel dial diameter is 26,2mm and the Yuki ( and Gen ) is 26,5, so i have to mill/shave the dial_seat_rehault for .3mm." You will need to remove the movement, measure the dial and then see how much 'dial seat' is machined into the case. Dial seat = the flat area where the front of the dial mounts inside the case. The dial 'window opening' of a genuine spec 1680 is approximately 26.2mm. 'Dial window' = the hole in the front of the case where the dial can be seen. Some cases may have a dial window opening that is oem spec of 26.2mm +/- but the dial seat may be as big or bigger inside the case than what is needed to accommodate a 26.5mm dial so no modification is needed for an oem spec 26.5mm dial. If your dial is 26.2mm in diameter, the dial window opening will probably be closer to 26.0mm than oem spec 26.2mm. This is why everything has to be measured on replicas because there are no standards. If the dial in your case turns out to be 26.2mm and the dial window is 26.0mm...you can go with a Yuki 26.5mm 1680 dial. Catch 22...if the dial window is 26.0mm, a 26.5mm oem spec 1680 Yuki dial may work but too much of the outer edge of the dial will be covered up and the dial window may need to be slightly enlarged etc, etc, etc, (read the sticky above 'Building an MBW Sub' where it discusses and cusses DW cases). It's all a hellofamess and I have gone through this many times. One very important tool needed in these projects is a precision digital caliper. Yuki dials will be the correct oem diameter and date window offset on rolex spec dials. Not sure about vintage rolex type Yuki dials for Eta 28xx movements. Here is a discussion on date window offsets: http://rwg.cc/topic/184464-anyone-know-where-to-get-a-127-crystal-with-correct-cyclops-position#comment-1472835

"The UK has been ruled by unelected and unaccountable officials in Brussels for far too long. As for immigration equaling racism, I've rarely heard such crap." +1 (from the USA) Almost every problem in the free world today was caused by politicians. Otoh, one big problem 'the people' brought upon themselves is overpopulation. (imho)

508's post is very enlightening and "...would you wear it on the bus? " is a winner. Most of the 'Big Time' watch guys I know/knew are past their prime in the market and when I was trading watches, a super nice 5513 or 1680 was $1500 or $1800 to buy. I am behind the times now due to lack of interest (and $$) but I can tell when prices are getting out of bounds. I bet most of the dealers mentioned above have a 'secret mechanic' who swaps parts around from watch to watch and puts 'high dollar' watches together out of the best parts, all the guys I knew did. Out of all the 'Big Time' watch guys I knew...only one was basically honest and he had a professional 'detail guy' who turned average (mostly rolex) watches into 'near mint', a common practice. Imagine the expertise a 'vintage rolex specialist' is willing to employ when turning a $4k lemon/lime 1680 into a $15k creampuff. Laser welding?? 'Aged' replica parts in genuine vintage bracelets?? For sure. Thanks for the replies.