mezzanine

I'm still not sure if I like the '07 Cousteau better or the '06 version.... The lume looks excellent. I've never owned a watch that had Superluminova, so I'm still ignorant to it's subjective effect.

The Seawolf is one watch that I would love to have. Except my interest is exclusively with the titanium one. What's interesting, though, is that when I first started out on the forum, the idea of tracking down one of these 'legendary' discontinued reps was a really exciting notion. Now, with the increase in the quality of reps, generally, I'm not nearly as interested in reps like the 'holy grail' SMP with the correct He valve or other such watches...and I suspect that other members aren't either.

This started out as a response to another thread, but it quickly diverged into something different, and instead of derail that topic, I felt it might warrant it's own discussion. I'm surprised at the lag that has occured in the production of new models, and have spent some time trying to figure out why. I'm not sure if someone with more history or experience could chime in, but in my relatively short amount of experience here, I haven't observed this type of drop-off, in terms of the release of new watches. I think maybe I was spoiled with my timing of entering the hobby. It was before the on-slaught of new 'super reps' around last christmas, and there was so much in the way of older watches for me to look at as a newb, that I wasn't hurting for new options early on. The market has shifted from wanting a bulk of options...in terms of wanting every possible variation on an average watch...to wanting extremely high fidelity, high quality single watches. That's why these types of releases which tend to be variations on existing models are anti-climactic for me. If the rep maker who does the super-reps was to release the 'black steel' Skyland, the Graham Chronofighter (sp?), a ceramic Ingy, a ceramic bezel 1:1 Rolex GMT, a seconds@ 12 AP ROO, or another watch that would push the limits of the reps in the same way that the HBB/Evo/Cousteau did, I think the hobby would get a jolt or a shot in the arm...and there would be a jump in sales revenue for the makers/dealers. Especially if you think about how the release of a truly 1:1 high quality 'super' rolex rep could effect the rep game. We haven't seen one, really- and there are a number of theories as to why, but there's no question that the market for something like that would be tremendous. One theory I've had for a while is that they've decided to cut-off communication about what may be in the pipeline is an effort to avoid sabotaging their ability to price current 'super reps' at the premium that they've been commanding. The idea is that the maker times the releases of new watches so as to best maximize his ability to run with that product line throughout the following year while keeping his price premium for as long as possible on 'this year's' collection of offerings... What tells me that we're near to another 'run' of watches is that the 'life cycle' of the current super reps are starting to enter into a different phase. The reps that were priced at a premium are starting to have value options, like the 'lite' version of the HBB, etc... I think they may view their sales model in terms of a yearly cycle now. I've long believed that the rep business best mimicks the technology industry, in terms of their respective governing value characteristics. It's conceivable that they try to extend the life cycle of their current line-up of price premium watches before undercutting them with a new generation of watches. Basically, you price the super reps at the same price as they're priced at when they're released for as long as possible- without introducing anything that would sabotage that margin. If you were to release a high quality series of reps in a trickle down way, it might be harder to keep the prices and demand inflated on the current generation. Instead, you clam up and don't release your new generation until you're ready to accept that production on your previous generation is no longer going to command the profit margin that the market would initially bare, due to the fact they've been around long enough to have saturated your customer base. It happens in technology all the time. Companies have a product that is pretty much ready to go, but if they were to release it, they would mess up the timing of the sales cycle of their previous generation of product and make it 'out-moded' before the customers necessarily would naturally feel the need to upgrade. If you had the option of buying a Tag Link Chrono or an ultimate PO or a SS Ingy, with the availability of the super-reps, I would think that it would be hard to justify paying super-rep type prices for those watches. That's where we were at approximately a year ago this time. A lot has changed between then and now...but I can't help but wonder if the maker sits down at the end of each year, and thinks about what he's going to do in the following year along these types of lines.

edited to be included in a seperate thread. I think that the bling models are a sign that we're reaching the end of the year.

That's one quality of the watch I really like too. On the 'black steel' version, with the red markings on the black rehaut, with the depth of the rehaut- it's a really cool effect. I think there was a good point made about the problem the rep makers could have in trying to do the subdials properly. One thing that they seem to struggle with is trying to get the depth of the 'grooves' right on the dials of these breitlings that have the circular 'engraved' type of dials. I guess the steelfish is probably as good as the gen, but I don't think the Evo is. I think getting dial textures right is still one of the problems with our reps. Even the super-reps. With the Big Bangs, the 'carbon fibre' dials don't live up to the gen standards, as far as the finish of the dial and the detailing.

It's interesting how some folks like the fact that the steelfish is a less expensive gen, while others see it as a detraction. Personally, I don't like the idea of buying a rep that's 25% of the used value of the gen. I buy reps with the idea of getting watches that are way out of range of what I would realistically afford at this point in my life. That's just me, though...I can see how others would see it as a discounted way to get gens that they would otherwise buy at their more moderate gen prices.

You bastards that live in tropical climates. You better not be complaining about this phenomenon. Or else you're coming to Canada, where the area under your watch is actually darker than the rest of your arm. Yes, reverse tanning. That's what we do here.

I wish they would do the ceramic bezel Ingy.

If they were still as 'rare' as they used to be, I would suggest that MBW's be restricted to the 'supporters' part of the forum. The mystique around those watches for the casual members are a strong pull. If they were only available for sale on the exclusive part of the site, then it could incentivize users to upgrade. In terms of the restriction of The Zigmeister's articles, that's entirely his perogative. Personally, I'm not for the restriction of information- but I understand the rationale.

Regardless of the relative level of fidelity, the MBW subs are better in my mind. It's all about 'pet' issues...and for me, the conical and shallow rehaut of the noob and cheaper subs is the biggest flaw on the reps, IMO. I hate the way it looks with that shallow rehaut.

Very nice. I like the representation of Omegas. I am thinking about getting a 42mm Planet Ocean and having the crystal AR'd. I wish that the SMP's were better than they are- because that is one of my all time favourite watches. The rep makers should do a super-rep of one of them. I like the Chrono SMP, but haven't felt inspired to purchase it. The titanium pams are my favourite of the Panerai's.

When I first received my stainless steel Big Bang, I gave serious consideration to selling the rest of my reps and calling it a day. I couldn't imagine finding another watch that would match it's quality and synchonicity with my personal style. I'm still not sure that there will be another rep releaesd within the next couple of years that will rival what the HBB did for reps this past year.

HBB

Cool...I think I am going to pick one of these up for my noob.

$50

Yeah- that's my feeling as well. The 'super reps' are close to perfect and allow watch nuts like ourselves to be able to have a collection of awesome watches, rather than having to limit our collections to less watches.

I'm not super happy with my collection right now. I've got some pieces that are not being worn, and some that I'm not as excited about as I used to be. Probably going to scale things down slightly in the next few weeks. I don't like having more than 5 reps...that's my magic number.

This one's growing on me... I wasn't too inspired about it at first. I would still prefer a Skyland black steel, but between this and the Evo, I'd probably go with this.

I think it's important to recognize that everyone here is on the same side- that's one of the reasons why I hope that there can be a solution that maintains the positive, friendly atmosphere that the site has cultured over it's existence and has become known for. To me, that's the most valuable aspect of the site, and I know that's true for most of the people that use the site, donating or non-donating members alike. That's the only atmosphere that I believe encourages new members to stick around, and see the value in helping the site to continue on. There's no question that this has got to frustrating to the admins/mods. I think it's a matter of where best to channel energy. Instead of channeling energy towards the group of people who aren't donating, and causing fracture and an attitude of division to spread throughout the culture of the board, my personal choice is to try to channel my energy towards helping to brainstorm possible solutions. I realize that my ideas are probably largely irrelevant or misguided. That's not why I'm taking the time to write them out, though. I'm aware that most of it is probably stuff that the admins/mods have covered long before I probably was even a member of the site. The reason myself, and others too, are trying to work in that direction is precisely because it offers a way of trying to look at this problem that does not put the focus on trying to change the average behavior of message board users. Rather, it identifies and accepts that behavior, and seeks to change the system so as to be able to better reflect the realities of the mindset of the average forum user. There are things you can control, and there are some things you can't really control. Complaining about the stuff you can't control...or even trying to change it, is not energy well spent, IMO. The fact is that a significant % of forum users do not donate willingly to the maintenance of the site. Debating the logic of whether that 'fact' is justified, in terms of whether those people are exploiting the services of others, is not really a step towards a solution, IMO. Even if it's deemed that they are not justified to continue to use the site without donating, where does that put us? The admins shut down the site to non-paying users? I personally don't have a problem with that...but there are definite consequences to it. For one, members could only conceivably sell their used reps to other members...which represents a minority of the current market of buyers for used reps. Not only that, but one of the distinct values of becoming a VIP member is the ability to sell unwanted watches on the forum. My personal opinion is that the same casual users of the site that are not currently paying for a membership would simply re-direct to other message boards that do not require that they pay. This is, of course, an acknowledgment of the psychology of those members, who by their very nature will seek the path of least resistance. It's a matter of investment. I believe it's hard for rep enthusiasts to really understand the mindset of a non-enthusiast. The percentage of people who find this site, that go on to become the type of hard cores that post in this thread and who donate to keep the site going is proportionately small. Say, 5% of the people who discover the site become actual rep collectors. The majority might use the site to find a single watch and then check back occasionally. The site, in the eyes of that type of user, does not warrant the type of commitment that is required to donate. If I'm not a huge fan of replica purses, but I go on the site to see where there's a good deal to find a purse for my girlfriend for christmas, the mindset I'm bringing to my participation in the site is not one of a commited member. In order to generate that type of interest, it would require there to not be a free alternative elsewhere for the information I'm seeking, or there would need to be a tangibly perceived value for buying a membership- one that put the value of the membership in clear monetary terms that outlined why it is advantageous for a 'newb' to purchase a membership as a relatively disinterested buyer. Other businesses generally achieve this by offering a discount off of the price of watches, if the user possesses a membership. For example, you buy a membership to get 15% off of your purchases from forum dealers.

I hear you eddhead...the question I would ask is: IF the current format of the board is not working, in terms of being able to self-sufficient using the present system, then there is going to have be some change to the way the board finances it's existence, or it will no longer be tenable as a website. There are not a lot of ways that this can be done. Either the cost of the infrastructure has to be reduced, or there needs to be increased revenue. I'm not technologically savvy enough to be able to offer any ideas regarding the possibility of reducing these costs without sacrificing the desired level of security. If this is an option for the admins, I'm sure they either have already investigated it, or will further investigate potential options. If we accept that the security of the site requires the present level of infrastructure cost to provide the admins with the layer of protection necessary for maintaining a website of this nature, then that leaves us with the second alternative...generating increased revenue. Personally, I don't believe that the current system is going to be able to keep the site going. It relies too much on volunteer donations. It has worked in the past, though. I would need a clearer picture of how the current conditions differ from the conditions that were present when the system was implemented. What changed between the economics of running the site a year ago that is different now. This may have already been addressed- so I probably need to go back and look at what has already been said to get a better picture of the changing conditions that has brought the problem to a head the last couple of months. I believe that part of it may be the result of paypal shutting down the admins accounts, and thereby freezing the donations that had been made prior to the last couple of months. If that's so, then it could be possible that the old system will work again if enough members re-up their donations. However, that's not my impression. My impression is that it's more expensive to run the site than it was in the past. If that's the case, then something different is going to have to be done. It may require the site to operate under a different set of parameters than it has in the past, if it's going to survive. That may mean some concessions will have to be made. The possible concessions seem to center on either closing down the site to non-paying members, or finding a way to keep it open by changing the format of the membership system so as to incentivize users to join.

The AR issue is a tough one- I prefer AR on any watch...I think it adds to the 'genuine' appearance, regardless of whether the actual watch uses it to as strong a degree. I also feel that crystals are decieving- they're not like a wrong dial print or something- they generally have an unconscious effect. I could see if the AR gave off a reflective hue that was wrong in colour- but I strongly doubt if the presence of anti-reflective properties within the crystal itself would be sufficient to cue anyone of it being a rep. Especially with the supposed variance in the AR used on the gens.

She's a beauty...no doubt. The SS version isn't half bad either- especially considering only 100 PVD Skylands were released for sale in the US.

The 'black steel' Skyland is one of the more striking watches I've seen since taking up the hobby- by far my favourite Breitling. I would kill for one of those watches, properly repped. We need to get the rep factory on this- it would be a great seller...

There's talk that the more recent 21k 7750 asian movements is actually a 'new' movement- presumably more reliable than the old notorious version. If it is indeed the older 7750, then the issue of 'value' becomes highly suspect. How good a deal is a cheaper version of a watch that is less accurate (no AR) and not reliable?

I've been trying to follow the issue of the fiddy and the mystical question of what the AR should look like on the fiddy crystal. Is davidsen's AR'd crystal 'real' AR....for example, on the cheaper Chopard GTXL, there is what 'appears' to be AR on the underside of the crystal, but I think it's a type of 'fake' AR film that some of the rep makers use in place of real high quality stuff. k222 is willing to do a customized AR run for panerai's...possibly using the yellowish colour found on some of the crystals, and I can't help but wonder if it would be worthwhile to send the davidsen crystal in for a coating job. It seems to be one of the only outstanding issues left on that watch. If the AR on the davidsen is truly high quality, then I probably wouldn't bother, regardless of the colour. There's still ambiguity about whether Fiddy's even have AR. It's strange that it's so vague- but I guess Panerai may have changed their colours and all of that over the years. Some have speculated as to whether it's double-coated, single coated, or even coated at all.