RWG Technical

I don't think you scrolled down far enough...have a look at the last 2 pics... @specialvat Yes, the hour hand is spun around the hour wheel post, it's twisted and pointing at the "6", you can see it in the first picture.

If you have a handwind PAM with a 6497 and the running seconds removed, please read the following. BACKGROUND The 6497 comes from the factory with an extended 2nd wheel post on which the seconds hand is attached. This is a close up picture of that post, it fits through the dial hole, and the hand is secured to it. If your PAM doesn't have a seconds hand, this post has to be removed so that it doesn't interfere with the dial. Removal is not a problem, if it's done correctly... PROBLEM The removal of the post is not being done correctly, and as a result, your watch is in effect a ticking time bomb...read on to see why... The posts are either being removed at the factory, or they are being removed by modders - modders who don't know what they are doing. Here are examples of factory fresh movements with the post removed. Example 1 On this one they disassembled the movement and removed the 2nd wheel (the way it should be done), but instead of cutting off the post and leaving it long enough to have a proper pivot, they ground down the whole pivot right to the pinion gear, leaving an unfinished and rough pivot, not only is it unfinished, it's sitting in the jewel, not above it. Here you can see that the cut off section is below the jewel face, it should be above the jewel face This is a picture of how a pivot should look, nice rounded top, and it sticks above the face of the jewel. Here I have disassembled the movement and removed the 2nd wheel. And here is a close up of the 2nd wheel and the cut off post, there is no pivot to rotate in the jewel This is how a good pivot should look,this is the pivot on the other end of the 2nd wheel. Example 2 The person at the factory who assembled this watch, was a bit lazier than the first fellow, and he didn't have as much time available as the first one, so instead of removing and grinding off the pivot, he simply bent the post over until it snapped off...with disasterous results for the owner... The result is a very jagged, sharp edge,as the watch runs, this jagged edge will effectively act as a cutter and grind down the jewel, eventually the 2nd wheel will disengage from the rest of the gears... What will happen if left as-is and not fixed... If you own a handwind PAM, you know how many turns are needed of the crown to fully wind it up. You also know how much force is needed to wind that big 48 hour power reserve mainspring. All the mainspring power is held back by the escapment and of course the train gears. The mainspring can only unwind slowly over 48 hours. If something happens to cause the train gears to disengage, the mainspring will unwind in a milisecond. WHEN the 2nd wheels in the above examples finally grind down the jewel enough to cause the gear train to disengage, the mainspring will unwind fully and take with it the minute hand and hour hand and everything else...kiss your watch good bye... Here is an example of this happening, this particular watch had a 3rd wheel failure, but the 2nd wheel failing will do the same damage as you see here. Not only are the dial and hands destroyed, the force has also stripped and damaged all the gears in the movement. RESULT Dial is ruined Hands are ruined Movement is destroyed SOLUTION 1 Don't buy any handwind PAM that doesn't have running seconds, unless you are going to fix it 2 If you do buy one, have it serviced/repaired as soon as you get it 3 If you use the services of a modder to remove your seconds post (FGD dial install for example), make sure it's done correctly - ask for pictures of the workmanship, ask if they own a DREMEL PROBLEMS 1 There are NO SPARE parts available for ASIAN 6497's, so if you have a A6497 and need a new 2nd wheel, you have to buy a complete movement to get a replacement gear 2 For the ETA movements, replacement parts are available, so repair is not a problem As you can see from the pictures, it's simple for you to check this out yourself - as long as your comfortable removing the dial and hands... Modder workmanship Have to at least mention what I have seen...no names...so far I have identified two distinct types of modders... Modder 1 - these fellows don't disassemble the movement, they simply cut the post off with cutters, leaving a jagged eged, but it's above the jewel face so that's good, the jewel won't be ground down. On the downside, the jagged edge is wider that the jewel hole and it won't allow the 2nd wheel to pass through the jewel and be removed, so you can't service the watch. Modder 2 - these fellows are the POWER tool users...the post is ground off with a grinder, probably a Dremel tool...on the good side these modders are too lazy to actually disassemble the movement, so like Modder 1 they leave a post that is above the jewel face. On the BAD side, they don't realize that grinding creates metal fillings, of course metal fillings and mechanical gears don't get along. Clean UP, what's that?? these types don't clean anything, not even their fingerprints, so they leave all the metal fillings everywhere, fillings get into the oil in the jewels, and all over the various parts and pieces, with disasterous results. So there you have it, something to consider and think about... Thanks for reading, hopefully this will save someone from disaster.

Make sure to factor in and get the movement correctly serviced before you put it into use. I have seen and worked on a number of these, and given the age, the fact they are found in mostly lower end watches, the reality is that the owners didn't bother to have them maintained. All were very gummed up and dry, and in dire need of attention. Think of it as buying a 1950's car and driving it around with no oil or fluids or lubricants, that's your movement's condition, use it and damage it more.

Priceless, absouletely priceless......too funny... That is the "Standard" grade ETA, the lowest of the low, cheapest model made, wholesale cost would be less than $50.00. Most of the responders are missing the point, focusing on the fact that the movement is not "engraved", engraving is nothing more than lipstick on a pig and misses the point, the point is that it's a run of the mill surplus ETA. Every watch manufacturer does this, TAG has a $4000.00 model with a $16.00 plastic quartz movement inside.

If you don't know who he was, you should... The leading horologist of the 20th century has died at 85, a great loss. His legacy will live on with Omega. Sad day for sure.

There is indeed no cure...but your way beyond normal with your addiction. Only solution is to dump those 240's and break free.....

Excellent collection, not many score 1 - one A240, you go and score 2 of them...greed, simple outright greed... Thanks for this, very well done.

Thanks for the positive feedback everyone. @krpster, should not be a problem to make a pusher, as long as I have the old one as a guide or exact dimensions...let me know if you are interested. @PeteM, the rule of thumb would be, if the gen crown has o'rings on it's stem pipe (like yours does), then you need a smooth bore case tube to allow the o'rings to seat and do the sealing. If the stem pipe is smooth, then you need a tube with an o'ring in it, to provide the seal. I would love to have an apprentice, it's just too bad we all live so far apart...

If you are going to install a genuine crown onto a PAM case, you need a matching tube. I have seen a number of genuine crown installs where the original tube was retained and simply drilled out larger to fit the gen crown pipe, that is not a good solution, in fact it's a horrible solution. Why? well simply because the rep tubes typically have an o'ring on them and the o'ring is inserted into a notch cut out of the inner edge of the tube, the notch in the tube for the o'ring damages the o'rings on the gen crown, the damage means that the seal is non existant and the case is allowed to breath with long term damage to the movement. Also, the majority of the rep tubes do not fit correctly against the vertical crown o'ring which provides the seal when the CG lever is closed. Basically by installing a gen crown in a rep tube, you end up with a case that is open to the atmosphere and that is sucking in dirt and moisture everytime the watch is worn, eventually the watch will be ruined. The correct way to install a genuine crown is to fabricate a matching tube, a tube that fits the case properly, and more importantly, fits and makes full use of the 3 crown o'rings (2 on the pipe and 1 on the crown) and provides the required seal. First part of the work is to drill the hole in bar stock, the hole is for the crown to fit into, the drilling is done in stages from small drill to large drill... Next up, I cut the tube down so that it will fit into the case. This is done carefully and the final dimension is to have a slight taper to the finish so that the tube can be press fitted tightly to the case. Once that is finished, I have to cut the tube away from the bar stock so I can fit and finish it. The tube is flipped over and re-installed in the lathe. The crown is test fitted, the pipe fits the tube correctly but if you look closely the tube is too large in diameter and doesn't seat properly against the 3rd o'ring in the crown. So I reduce the diameter of the outside of the tube until it just fits into the crown, you can see the slight gap between the crown and tube, a perfect fit, a fit that will provide the correct seal once the CG lever is closed. Next the tube gets a polish. The tube is ready to be press fitted into the case. And a quick look at the inside shows that it's the correct length and fully seated. With the crown installed, the crown o'ring is touching the new tube and there is just enough of a gap between the crown and the case to allow the CG lever to press the crown home and flush against the case and seal it all up. When done correctly not only is the crown supported laterally so you don't get a wobble, the pipe o'rings provide a constant seal, and the crown ring does the final sealing when the CG lever is closed. All in all a professional installation. Total time for fabrication of the tube is just under an hour. Thanks for reading.

I do have a milling attachment, but I don't use it for this procedure. The squared section is done with a file and then a arkansas stone using a roller rest as a guide. It has to be done carefully and exactly, or it simply won't work...

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I wasn't sure if there was any interest in these types of posts anymore, seems as if there is so that's good. @PeteM, look closely, you will be seeing this particular stem and the other I made for your case sets...they are yours. Next up will be the case tube fabrication, stay tuned. @redwatch, all work is completed on a watchmaker 8mm lathe. @db2,

Many want to install genuine crowns on various PAM models. When it comes to handwind models, most of the genuine crowns are designed for automatic's, and therefore the stems are sized at 0.90mm. The problem is that handwind 6497 stems are only available in 1.20mm size. So why not re-thread the 1.20mm stem down to 0.90mm? Short answer is that it can't be done, the stems are so hardened that they can't even be cut with a carbide graver. If you can't cut it with a carbide graver you have no chance to re-thread it to 0.90mm with a HSS die. Why not simply use a stem adapter from 1.20-0.90mm? Can't be done. Handwind movements are very large and the thickness of the case is very small, so small that the genuine crown touches the movement when it's installed. You don't have enough thickness to install the stem adapter as it takes up too much room. The only solution is to fabricate a complete stem from scratch. Here I fabricate a new stem from high carbon steel, these are some of the steps required to accomplish that task... Up first, a picture of the genuine crown and the original 1.20mm stem. I am using a high carbon steel rod of 2.50mm, here you can see the original stem next to the bar stock. I take 1.10mm off the rod and turn it down to 1.40mm diameter, the overall diameter of the original stem. Here is the comparison of the original stem next to the rod. The first part that needs to be cut is the tip, here is the start of that operation. All done the tip. Genuine on the right, rod on the left. Next I have to fabricate the square section of the stem, this is the part that the clutch wheel rides on and allows handsetting and winding. All 4 sides have been cut down, the overall dimension is within 0.01mm of the required 0.90mm dimension accross the flats. I check my work by test fitting the clutch wheel. Next up I have to make the notch for the set lever pin, this is the pin that holds the stem in place and allows switching from timesetting to winding. Notch has been fully cut to the required depth. Next the stem is removed and flipped over. I trim it down to be able to thread it to 0.90mm and start the treading process. Overall view after full threads cut. And here you can see the results of my labour, a hand made custom stem, fitted for a 6497 with a 0.90mm thread, it is test fitted into the genuine crown, all that remains is to trim the stem to length so the crown fits up nicely against the case. Overall the process takes over an hour to complete. As you can probably appreciate, it takes a lot of skill to be able to make such a small part to such exact dimensions, and actually have it work and fit the genuine movement clutch and crown gears. Definetely not for the faint of heart or wannabe watchmakers... Thanks for reading.

Wonderful photo's, thoughtful insight into each watch, and a good variety of watches in your collection that anyone would be proud to own. Thanks for sharing.

Looks good, well done. Certainly a good worthwhile improvement.

Sorry for the late reply, been one of those days at work... Thanks for the feedback, interesting to know that others have seen this particular model. Initially after servicing the timing was way off, but after adjustment it's working just fine. @hackR, the hairspring is manupilated with offset tweezers and some hairspring tools, you need to find out exactly where the problem is, and then bend the hairspring in the right direction and amount to eliminate the error. @watchmeister...you asked for it...

This is the first time I have come accross this particular version of the venerable Asian 6497-2. There seem to be more variants than I can keep track of. Specs: 18,000 BPM 18 Jewels (normally 17) Lettering is not engraved, printed only PROBLEMS Overall view, note that some of the lettering has disapeared following cleaning: First odd item, do you see the extra sets of holes in the mainplate for the pallet cock, the two holes are an alignment pin hole and a threaded hole as well. Not sure why there are extra holes, if I was to guess, it appears as if this mainplate was designed for a pallet bridge which is fastened on both sides and includes a built in set of banking pins. Maybe this mainplate started life as a Unitas 6497... the other oddity if you look closely is that the banking pins are a long ways back towards the balance wheel than they should be, normally the pins but up against the pallet arm, in this case they are butting up against the pallet forks, very odd indeed... Next problem, the crown is fully in the winding position, but notice how the set lever has not fully switched to the winding position, the set lever alignment pin should be fully seated in the notch of the keyless cover, it's only partially seated. The reason for this is that the stem is too short and will have to be replaced with a correct length longer stem. This is not a problem that the owner would detect and was caused by whoever sized the stem to the incorrect length. If I didn't note this problem and left it as it is now, the result would be that the sliding pinion and the crown gear would not engage fully, and since this is a handwind, winding would eventually damage both the pinion and the gear. This just goes to show once again that until someone has a detailed look and services the movement correctly, you never know the condition, another reason for a servicing and detailed inspection of a new movement. IMPROVEMENTS Lets look at some improvements, they added a jewel to the top of the winding barrel arbor, a good idea since this is the pivot with the most stress. Another problem, and this is not unique to the A6497, hairsprings defects exist on 99% of Asian movements. Before photo, you can see the uneven gap between the coils, if not repaired, the timing would be inacurate and cause the movement to run fast, slow, even, all over the place. It is a fairly easy repair, I manipulated the hairspring and corrected the uneven spacing. Another timing problem, the hairspring is at rest, this is the regulator arm and pins, you can see that the hairspring is touching the inside of one of the arms only, the hairspring should be centered between the two brass arms. BEFORE I moved the regulator pins and now you can see that the hairspring is centered between both pins. AFTER Overall a good movement, but I wonder why we have gone back to 18,000 beat rate from the normal 21,600 rate... Thanks for reading, if you have any questions or comments please ask...

Very interesting, thanks for this much appreciated.

Very nice combination, well done.

My question would be, do you want it flat, or do you want the pin flush with the CG. There is a noticeable difference, a truely flat pin can't be modified in place and needs a lathe, a flush pin is simply blended into the shape of the CG. You can make the pin flush quite easily by using a fine sharpening stone, and then brushing it or polishing it to match the CG finish. To make a truely flat pin, you need to remove it, place it in a lathe, turn the face flat and exactly 90 degrees to side of the pin, and then polish it. To do either, you need to remove the CG from the case, the pin is easily pressed out with a small punch and light hammer blows. I find that most pins are poorly made, my normal procedure is to make a completely new pin. Not one of my better pictures, but you get the idea... BEFORE AFTER

I guess it all depends on where he is sourcing the parts, the reality is that he's putting together a genuine watch, with genuine parts and pieces, I am not sure what he is doing that is not acceptable... I would have thought that this type of post on that forum would generate much more reaction, but it seems to be a non-issue. Now, if that was posted on Time Zone, look out, the majority of those folks are wacked in the head...

4 replies, and the post died in a day with no further comments, seems as if it's a non issue, best to leave it alone... And anyway, what's the big deal, there is a huge Grey Market for everything out there, from Camera's to Watches, it's all very silly how they go on like drama queen's... I wonder how many of these folks drive a high end car.....that...wait for it....has AFTERMARKET parts on it...like an oil filter, or brake pads...and maybe even the muffler...so does that make the car a "fake", not at all, and neither does making up a watch with a mixture of genuine parts, don't like it, go to the AD and buy it new, and then you know for sure.

It's obvious that you received a movement designed for the other side of the earth, where the time is 12 hours ahead of your time. I would suggest you either move to the new location, or maybe someone living in that time zone has the same problem with their watch, and you can switch watches/movements.

I saw you read the info...having a difficult day with bad movements, my comments were excited, so I removed them. Good luck with the repair, and get a new watchmaker, a good one.

Very important point, totally slipped my mind. Suppliers are not stocked with Sellita parts, so unless you want to buy a complete movement for spares, good luck getting parts.