automatico Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 After looking at rolojack's super finestein '1016' and a few others for sale I thought I would say that what used to be a scorned hobby may be becoming more of an accepted (but not yet respected) 'art' of a sort. I know that publicly, no card carrying VRF etc member would be caught doa wearing a Frankenstein rolex (with his pants pulled down) but these watches are getting too good to hide and/or ignore. Maybe there will soon be a category for these watches other than the common term Fake! that all the rolex purist squeal when they see one (while peeing down their leg). I have a few F-steins that I wear now and then and I will say that I really like them because other than the genuine movement (mine are 1530 base), the watch is not too expensive and gets me into the vintage realm for not much $$. I still have a few all genuine rolex watches but hardly ever wear one because, well...I just do not like them as much as one I put together myself. Besides that, there is no way I would pay $6 or $7 thou' for a ratty 5513 with a corroded all to hell case, splotchy dial, and worn out bracelet. If there was some way to keep them from being sold as genuine after we pass them on, I think they might be more or less accepted (maybe) in a few years after the genuine stuff gets too expensive to wear or repair. I know that many of what we call 'Frankensteins' are put together to be sold to buyers walking sideways as 'all genuine' but this is out of my control. If anyone does not believe Frankensteins have gone mainstream, just go to a NAWCC etc watch show and look around. Any comments? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) I have always said and felt this way - replicas of modern watches are just that - replicas, copies, knock offs, etc. They are fun but they have a stigma. I think Frankensteins and vintage pieces put together and aged using gen and aftermarket parts are works of art, similar to kit cars and auto restoration. They are a different animal entirely. When assembling something yourself, you have the choice to use factory OEM parts OR you can use aftermarket parts that were built to OEM specs. Nobody would fault you for replacing a hose or component of a car that you drive for fun with an aftermarket part. Only the really purist, show-worthy collector cars require all original parts. If you own the same car but don't show it in those purist shows, then you are free to use any parts you want during repairs and restoration. Not a single person on the planet would snub you or look down on you for that. Also, auto lovers think kit cars are really cool. It doesn't matter if it is a kit or not, it's a cool car. I think these vintage pieces are the same way. A client of mine is bringing back the Duesenberg automobile using modern technology, including the Corvette LS6 engine. It sounds like they are going to be doing the production down in TX. It would be fun to drive that while wearing a nice vintage build on the wrist! Edited March 29, 2016 by Mendota Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadowsweet_ Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 (edited) Here here R, totally agree! Just one example: look at the proliferation of used/faded gen inserts sold on places like VRM. It's obviously now more than acceptable for the "purists" to openly swap out, say, a service insert on their 1675 for a faded fat font Pepsi to make their watch more "original" or "vintage" (and pay an exorbitant amount of money in the process of doing so lol) and not many seem to turn their up nose at such a swap. And "gen" watches with refinished dials, hands, etc. even pop up in major auction house catalogs from time to time; though they may fetch significantly less (and the real intense purists won't touch them). Personally, the reason why I decided to embark upon building a few frankens was not to labor over something that would just sit in a watch box, but to build something that I could actually wear (frequently) and enjoy without dropping close to $10K and constantly fretting over its use (and lest we forget, these are for the most part TOOL watches). Also, the depth of knowledge attained by those who build frankens is immeasurable, and there is enjoyment to be had not only from building such a watch, but also knowing every last minute detail about it; many "purists" who would scoff at these builds could not tell you nearly as much about the same watch on their wrist that they just happened to pay the $10K/$20K/$30K for because it's "factory gen". And i think as long as deceit or a nefarious sale isn't the objective, then there should absolutely be great pride in building an uber franken, because as many of us know, it takes a lot more blood sweat and tears to build your grail than it does to merely hit "Buy It Now" on eBay. Edited March 29, 2016 by meadowsweet_ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sub007 Posted March 29, 2016 Report Share Posted March 29, 2016 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highoeyazmuhudee Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 at some point in the future most vintage rolex watches will have to be a frankenwatch. if you dont use genuine toyota parts are you driving a franken toyota? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanuq Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 Well said. I've rebuilt my 1963 Land Rover from the front bumper to the back. There's not a bolt or hose or gasket on it that's more than 5 years old. It's loaded with aftermarket parts from all over the world. I think the only original parts left are the Lucas ignition switch and some glass and sheet metal. So is it still a Land Rover? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 ^ You bet it is! It is something you enjoy and use. Hellz yeah it is. With that said, if a Land Rover convention were to come to Anchorage, and they were doing a big display, yours might not be allowed to be in the show because of all of the aftermarket parts used, but it wouldn't change the fact that other owners and enthusiasts would still give you high fives and head nods for owning and loving such a cool beast! Vintage watches, cars, and boats are all the same in my mind. If you are enjoying them yourself then who cares? Nobody. If you are showing them at special shows, then it matters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 23 hours ago, automatico said: Maybe there will soon be a category for these watches other than the common term Fake! They have been called frankens (or some variation of that) -- a term describing the space that lies between 100% genuine & 100% fake -- for decades. The 1st time I heard the term was back in the late 1970s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revere Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 The franken question is a real "Ship of Theseus" type situation. I recently completed my 6538 build and some collector friends love it. They understand it was a personal investment for me, not something that I'm building to sell or try to pass off as the real deal. IMO, transparency is key. If projects like these are ever to be embraced by the mainstream collectors, it'll have to be with transparency, right? Maybe that's where the key between franken and counterfeit lies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
droptopman Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 @automatico, I agree. The main problem is that too many people try and pass off builds as something they are not. You see frankens show up at high end auction houses and on Ebay all the time. Seen plenty of frankens on reputable gen sites, but they are frankens comprised of all genuine parts. So the scammers that try and make a profit by misrepresenting what they are selling influence the view of franken watches. Generally this view is negative--at least by the genuine collectors. Talking about the general watch collecting public outside of the rep forums. That view tends to paint anyone who does franken builds as doing something wrong or that they/we are up to no good. Had a long discussion with a collector the other day about this. He could not understand why I would invest so much time and money into something that was not all original. I could not explain it to him effectively. The funny thing is that most of the people I have met on the rep boards and especially those that are doing franken builds are some of the nicest and most honest people I have met. In general most of us lose money on these builds and it is really for the enjoyment of the process and clearly not for profit or to try and fool anyone. But you try explaining that to a regular collector and they generally do not get it. I know I lost money on every build I did. A couple of them I lost a lot of money.... However, I did learn a lot from the experience and education costs. Over the last several months I sold all my builds and have started a pretty nice vintage genuine collection. I find much of the same satisfaction finding a genuine vintage reference that I did doing builds. It is not like I can go down to the AD and purchase a mid 60's gilt Sub. It takes much time and effort to find a specific example in the specific condition you are looking for. At this point, I do not have any builds going, but I will again in the future. I have a couple of old crappy watches that I am working on to learn. I have been acquiring more tools and setting up my workbench so that I in the future, I can do a build from start to finish on my own. At some point as these vintage watches become harder and harder to find parts for, you may see a shift in the view of using aftermarket parts. Much like we have seen with muscle cars. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomhorn Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 ^^ well said DTM ... From spending all the time I have on the forum over the years, if you throw out the would be poseurs who just want a fake watch to fool their friends and colleagues with, I see a regular progression during people's tour through our hobby on the various message boards. The trend I seem to see a lot of in people is: 1) Bought a few reps to start. Mostly of the 1:1 or very good quality variety. 2) Interest in "modding" begins. 3) Plateau reached. 4) Move from "modding" to building frankens. 5) Plateau reached. 6) Selling off of the project watches. 7) Purchase of gens. 8 ) Return to #4. I am at step #5 myself. Went through building several frankens, and haven't felt the energy to do much new for a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 at some point in the future most vintage rolex watches will have to be a frankenwatch. if you dont use genuine toyota parts are you driving a franken toyota? I believe you are absolutely correct. As the prices for genuine parts increases almost exponentially every year, and the quality goes down, read "worn out", more and more folks will be forced to use aftermarket parts, or confine that lughole sub to the sock drawer. To reinforce this idea, i really believe that it is going on and has been going on for years. I know that supply houses like Startime and Orfei have catalogs full of aftermarket parts, and they sure as heck aren't there to assist us in building frankens, they are there to supply parts to the thousands of people with genuine Rolexes that cannot or will not spend the exorbitant prices that Rolex charges. I have a perfect example, back in 2002, i sent my late wife's Rolex Gold/SS datejust to Bob Ridley in Arlington, TX. Now if you don't know, Bob is pretty much considered "Mr Rolex" by most vintage Rolex guys. Bob overhauled the watch replaced the bezel and crystal (genuine), but the bracelet was really worn out. A new one from Rolex, even back 14 years ago was well over one thousand USD. Bob, suggested an aftermarket 14k gold and S/S bracelet, made in Italy, for about half that. Now here is a guy that is a confirmed Rolex person, but he had no qualms about suggesting a lower cost alternative to the expensive Rolex bracelet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seacraft Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 18 hours ago, Nanuq said: Well said. I've rebuilt my 1963 Land Rover from the front bumper to the back. There's not a bolt or hose or gasket on it that's more than 5 years old. It's loaded with aftermarket parts from all over the world. I think the only original parts left are the Lucas ignition switch and some glass and sheet metal. So is it still a Land Rover? Do you have factory wiring harness Lucas replacement smoke or did you use aftermarket? I think some are works of art, and the skill that goes into some is superb, but they are still not real and authentic - which makes a difference. A Factory Five Daytona Coupe is a BadAss car - it is still not a Shelby, badge or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike_G Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 On 3/29/2016 at 0:41 PM, Mendota Explorer said: I have always said and felt this way - replicas of modern watches are just that - replicas, copies, knock offs, etc. They are fun but they have a stigma. I think Frankensteins and vintage pieces put together and aged using gen and aftermarket parts are works of art, similar to kit cars and auto restoration. They are a different animal entirely. When assembling something yourself, you have the choice to use factory OEM parts OR you can use aftermarket parts that were built to OEM specs. Nobody would fault you for replacing a hose or component of a car that you drive for fun with an aftermarket part. Only the really purist, show-worthy collector cars require all original parts. If you own the same car but don't show it in those purist shows, then you are free to use any parts you want during repairs and restoration. Not a single person on the planet would snub you or look down on you for that. Also, auto lovers think kit cars are really cool. It doesn't matter if it is a kit or not, it's a cool car. I think these vintage pieces are the same way. A client of mine is bringing back the Duesenberg automobile using modern technology, including the Corvette LS6 engine. It sounds like they are going to be doing the production down in TX. It would be fun to drive that while wearing a nice vintage build on the wrist! I have read some pretty nasty posts on other boards about "fake Rolex" watches and the people who wear them. I have come to think it, especially when it comes to vintage watches, as no different than a Cobra replica. The original is a rare and expensive sports car and a whole industry has developed around replicas of the Cobra. They're accepted and admired and no one calls them "fake" Cobras. The same is also true of classic cars. Its rare to find a 100% original muscle car for example. Many are restored to original condition while others are "resto-mods" and may be fitted with modern components. I think the work being done by the modders is indeed art and the purists / watch snobs should accept it for what it is. I wouldn't drive an original '67 Cobra 427 thats worth a million (at least not often) likewise I wouldn't be inclined to wear an original vintage Comex Submariner too often. THe replicas allow an opportunity to enjoy these classic without the fear of putting a sizeable investment at risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I have read some pretty nasty posts on other boards about "fake Rolex" watches and the people who wear them. I have come to think it, especially when it comes to vintage watches, as no different than a Cobra replica. The original is a rare and expensive sports car and a whole industry has developed around replicas of the Cobra. They're accepted and admired and no one calls them "fake" Cobras. The same is also true of classic cars. Its rare to find a 100% original muscle car for example. Many are restored to original condition while others are "resto-mods" and may be fitted with modern components. I think the work being done by the modders is indeed art and the purists / watch snobs should accept it for what it is. I wouldn't drive an original '67 Cobra 427 thats worth a million (at least not often) likewise I wouldn't be inclined to wear an original vintage Comex Submariner too often. THe replicas allow an opportunity to enjoy these classic without the fear of putting a sizeable investment at risk. This is so true. In fact, even owners of gen Cobras own kit Cobras. Case in point- I was at a bachelor party for a friend when we were right out of college. We went to pick up a buddy of his whose dad is the lawyer for one of the richest billionaires here in MN. He was a famous corporate raider back in the '80s. Anyway, we were picking up the buddy at his dad's house and in his garage were 3 Shelby Cobras. One was an all original and fully restored gen, and the other 2 were kit Cobras. He said his dad would never just take the real one out for a spin, so he had his mechanic build him 2 kit Cobras that he could drive whenever he wanted and not have to worry about dings or miles. He said the kits were equally as much fun to drive as the real one was. This was coming from a car collector who showed his gen Cobra and also owned other cars, as well. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcardoza Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Of course a lot depends on how the owner presents the replica, be it a watch or a kit Cobra. I live close by Factory Five which is one of the top kit cobra Manufacturer's in the USA. Every one of those is built with Factory Five badging. I'm not aware of anyone trying to pass one off as a gen. In the rep watch world, there are a lot more scumbags out there trying to pass today's higher end reps off as gens. Or showing off their wrist and trying to pass their reps off as gens. That causes the black marks on our hobby that other products don't have to deal with. I never hesitate to admit my reps are just that. I'm proud of my collection and of the fact that I paid 10% of the gen price for these amazing pieces. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seacraft Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 47 minutes ago, pcardoza said: Of course a lot depends on how the owner presents the replica, be it a watch or a kit Cobra. I live close by Factory Five which is one of the top kit cobra Manufacturer's in the USA. Every one of those is built with Factory Five badging. I'm not aware of anyone trying to pass one off as a gen. In the rep watch world, there are a lot more scumbags out there trying to pass today's higher end reps off as gens. Or showing off their wrist and trying to pass their reps off as gens. That causes the black marks on our hobby that other products don't have to deal with. I never hesitate to admit my reps are just that. I'm proud of my collection and of the fact that I paid 10% of the gen price for these amazing pieces. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk When I grow up I want a Factory Five Daytona , I mean 65 Coupe. Saw one in Newport a few years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Some real sense being talked here. I second Droptopman's statement that the modders and Frankenstein builders are some of the finest people. A lot of forums can be real shark pits with regular feeding frenzies. RWG is a breath of fresh air in that respect. Im also a car guy. Twenty years ago anyone with a fake car would be seen as less than human. Times have changed there. Rods regularly feature in classic car mags, manufacturers are building replicas of their own historic models and a lot of the cars racing are replicas to a greater or lesser extent. Originals are too valuable to risk in racing and too fragile in some cases. I feel the same about good watch replicas. If you wear a watch to be someone you are not, well that's your choice and others might make a judgement on how secure you are as a person. If like a lot of us you wear a replica because your like the style, history, retro looks and do it for your own pleasure, then I see that as a diffent thing. I wear one or other vintage Rolex everyday. I have a couple of nice fakes for normal wear, I have a couple of beaters for the workshop and anything where it might take a knock. I have a couple of genuine vintage Rolex too. I don't wear them much because if I damage a part and have to replace it I'm loosing authenticity. I imagine if I had a genuine 5517 or 5514 I'd keep it in a safety deposit. Perhaps a great investment, but not really a watch anymore. it takes a little while to get the message out that fake and fraud are not the same thing. I don't think this community has much tolerance for fraud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 dtm: "Seen plenty of frankens on reputable gen sites, but they are frankens comprised of all genuine parts." Imho a watch made up of all genuine parts is not a Frankenstein (maybe an 'undocumented alien' Ha!). I have owned quite a few genuine rolex watches in the past and had papers for maybe 20% of them. The rest could all have been made from parts as far as I know...but they were 100% genuine. I figure as long as they are 'catalog items' (no Explorer dials in DJ cases etc) and 100% genuine, they are legit. One good thing about vintage Frankenstein 1016/5512/13/1680 etc is that it is harder to pin down what exact band/dial combo came on these watches so there is a lot of leeway to mix and match parts. About 20 years ago there were assorted tutone rolex 16013, 16233 etc with various dial flavors for sale everywhere and many sellers swapped the best dials/movements into the best cases with the best bracelets to be able to sell them for more $$. With no papers there was no way to tell which movement came in what case so they could make guarantees of being 'all genuine' but no guarantees or claims of originality ('originality' being exactly the same as it came out of the factory). There were also hundreds (thousands probably) of steel quick set DJ changed over to tutone using genuine and aftmkt parts because tt was hot back then. I would probably have to call a steel watch converted to tutone with all genuine parts a Frankenstein because they are not a catalog item but a conversion using aftmkt parts would require a lower class designation of some sort imho. Back then all these conversions were called 'bastard watches'. Swapping parts was common practice before the internet made secrets hard to keep and now a steel DJ will go for as much or more than a tt example so not much of this takes place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sogeha Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 I can second that. My watch smith is Rolex trained. Back when he first went self employed he got a contract to service secondhand Rolex for a Bristol dealer. The dealer basically got his stock from pawn shops and gave them to my guy for a service and as much aftermarket bling as possible to be fitted. Diamond dials, zircon dials, gold cases. The dealer ended up shot dead in Spain by his ex girlfriend. My watch smith wishes he kept all the genuine parts he removed and I wonder where all the bling Vegas watches went. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwatch Posted April 1, 2016 Report Share Posted April 1, 2016 The most beautiful and incredibly accurate vintage watches I´ve seen them on here. Immense research and detail go into building them with the looks they had when they were factory-fresh and original. And it´s a real pleasure again and again to see them. This is nothing like what the RSCs are doing. From a contrarian point-of-view, the ones who started building Frankenstein-watches (although they are not called so) were the RSCs themselves. By always restoring any watch to a "factory-fresh" and "updated" look along the years, reshaping casesets and crownguards, replacing crowns, tritium-dials and hands, worn inserts etc. by what was available 20, 30 and 50 years later - not necessarily by the original pieces. Too many original vintage watches nowadays just look like any Submariner, Seadweller or GMT from the mid-nineties. The original, unrestored and unserviced ones are really rare - or are new builds that You could only find on here:) Crownguards and crown of a 1680 Comex sub after leaving the RSC (original condition on the left) http://doubleredseadweller.com/comex_1680.htm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted April 1, 2016 Report Share Posted April 1, 2016 Why did RSC mess with the crown guards? I don't get that. They took so much metal off. Was it to fit the new, modern crown they put on? Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted April 1, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2016 "Why did RSC mess with the crown guards? I don't get that." Imho most of their current batch of drones simply can not do very good work. They supposedly have machines to contour case sides/tops/bevels but probably do the crown guards by hand. I would not trust them with anything vintage worth much $$ at all...maybe an old 1500 that fell into the meat grinder at the sausage factory. Since they have a cod lock on dials, cases, and bracelets, owners have no choice when they need something in this category. What gets me is most of the dedicated rolexophiles will defend this 'official rolex' case destruction..."as long as rsc does it, it is Ok with me, no matter how bad it is". I guess if someone raised enough hell about a botch job like the watch above, they might comp them a '444' case making the watch worth not much more than the average Frankenstein. The next evening one of the drones would stick the botched case in his pocket and take it home to be joined with the original COMEX dial he changed out a while back 'because the tritium was flaking off'... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cod%20lock Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mendota Explorer Posted April 1, 2016 Report Share Posted April 1, 2016 Cod lock. Love it! Seriously, where would any of us be without these forums? I think the only safe avenue is to enlist the aid and support of all of the dedicated Rolex lovers right here on the forums. From what I've read, it sounds like Bob Ridley and ABC Watch Werks are way better options than RSC. Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revere Posted April 1, 2016 Report Share Posted April 1, 2016 Man that's a tragedy. You gotta wonder who would send a Comex 1680 to an RSC, except for maybe an original Comex employee. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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