Devedander Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 TJ the only part I was referring to as noob bashing was the part you discredit him due to low post count and assumed lack of knowledge of the subject... the irony being you yourself did not know about the B&R fiasco that has appeared in this thread (and others) in the form of a huge picture of a really ugly cheap movement. 1:1... if we were doing drafting then I would say ok, it's just size. But outside any other limiting standard, I think it's pretty safe to say most people think of 1:1 as measureably equal in all (non explicity excluded) ways. I personally don't own any watches I know to be glass instead of saphire, that will have to be up to someone else to clarify. That said I don't know that none of mine aren't glass... why? Because I don't have a diamond tester and the fact they MIGHT be glass scares me from doing the screwdriver test... the irony I was sure I was paying extra to not have to fear that sort of thing. As good as it gets? I don't doubt that... but it sure would be nice if it stayed that way and kept moving in that direction wouldn't it? I think this type of post is an important step in ensuring that it does just that. As for dealers lying and not labling their reps as reps... well to be fair that is a sticky point as I can see how doing so might bring a lot of heat on them. Is it reasonable to expect they tell us a movement is an ugly asian copy? Yes. Is it reasonable for them to put a big sign on their forehead that says "come get me I am selling fakes"? Not so much so... Basically I do look at it from both sides, and I see where they have their hands tied on certain subjects or reasonably don't want to risk it... but when it comes to labeling parts of a watch things they are not, things which you could charge a premium for (and then do charge that premium) that aren't in any way related to a necessity of doing business then that's getting bad. I do believe Silix when they say they do not misslead and they are still around. And people please, stop bringing up the language thing... if this was river or king or something, ok, but several of our dealers have proven they have VERY GOOD English skills and I don't think any of the things being referred to could really be counted as nuances of the language... they are in the rep watch business... they know their stuff... it's silly to say "could you say it in Chinese"? If it was my business to sell watches to Chinese people and I had demonstrated strong Chinese skills in areas like answering emails and responding to posts on forums... I would think I could. I don't want a lynch mob either... I TRULY appreciate the luxury we have of being able to send our money to these guys with the expectation of not being ripped off. But I suspect it's very much the same as pug... the water is getting pretty deep. I honestly hope the movement issue is a good sign... a sign that factories will be cranking out ETA copies after ETA stops selling to the general market... and if these early and somewhat crappy looking movements are the first few steps in a long journey... well then that would be a silver lining. But that's a big if and it still does suck for some people now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldeCrow Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 You know Pugs I was going to reply to this over on the other site but it steered in a slightly different direction and I kept typing pages of crap before I was done so I never posted in it there. When I first started back into reps and found these forum sites I was determined to review every rep I bought but it quickly became obvious that I was going to spend all my time complaining about every single one for these kinds of issues on every single watch and that was before I got to the actual problems with the watches! I also realized that if people really wanted to admit and hear that these reps were still canal street garbage with a little more spit shine there wouldn't be any need for these forum sites so my complaints would fall on deaf ears, kind of like yours. To date I have not had a bad transaction with any of the dealers but the product remains terrible at any price and they are very overpriced! I still get drawn into the latest great rep and regret it every single time but I am a sucker and remain eternally hopeful that someday I really will see a one of these "high quality" reps people spend so much time lying about. the pessimist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 And people please, stop bringing up the language thing... if this was river or king or something, ok, but several of our dealers have proven they have VERY GOOD English skills and I don't think any of the things being referred to could really be counted as nuances of the language... they are in the rep watch business... they know their stuff... it's silly to say "could you say it in Chinese"? If it was my business to sell watches to Chinese people and I had demonstrated strong Chinese skills in areas like answering emails and responding to posts on forums... I would think I could. For my part, comments regarding language are meant to illustrate that for non-native speakers cultural differences in the way language is used including idioms, slangs and colloquilisms, represents a significant challenge. Anyone who has regular exposure to non-indigenous speakers, including myself, can attest to that. This board represents a virtual, global market, and although the rules specify that English be used exclusively I beleive we should be willing to make allowances for globality and the difficulty non-native speakers might encounter with respect to the use of language. I agree with the rest of your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 23, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I beleive we should be willing to make allowances for globality and the difficulty non-native speakers might encounter with respect to the use of language. As someone who works in a language that's not my maternal tongue, I can tell you, you play the language card when it saves your ass. I doubt, having read some of the dealers' posts, that they are unaware of what they're putting in their adverts. There's only one way to interpret "ETA 2892" no matter what the language. They expect us to play Sybil Fawlty to their Manuel. "It's ok, he meant mineral Glass. He's from Barcelona." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 As someone who works in a language that's not my maternal tongue, I can tell you, you play the language card when it saves your ass. I doubt, having read some of the dealers' posts, that they are unaware of what they're putting in their adverts. There's only one way to interpret "ETA 2892" no matter what the language. They expect us to play Sybil Fawlty to their Manuel. "It's ok, he meant mineral Glass. He's from Barcelona." I'm not hearing any language from the dealer side (TTK exception) good or bad in this thread. The silence is deafning....and a bit incriminating. If these were honest mistakes in language barrier based miscommunications...that would be very easy to clear up. I'm not hearing a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 To date I have not had a bad transaction with any of the dealers but the product remains terrible at any price and they are very overpriced! I really am at a loss as to how you can say that....you must be one of the unluckiest members here......I've been buying reps since 1986.....and have watched the quality and variety improve year upon year.......! I've also acquired many excelent quality reps since they introduced the Asian 7750.......the Breitling SA that I posted a few days ago....Panerai 196....both chronos which have run perfectly......and both watches that you DEFINITELY could not buy a genuine alternative at the same price.....$300+.......for that amount of money I could buy a Sector or Fossil.....or Armani......but not with an automatic chrono movement and the looks and presence of either of those watches....same with my 187....and IWC's....GST......Portuguese.....and lastly Planet Oceans....Railmasters and Seamaster Chronos.......I've sold dozens of them......in fact in the last year ...I sold almost 250 LV and Subs......and have had approx 10 returned......i think that's a great percentage......and testament to the fact that they are finally building good quality watches.......and at great prices......$100 buxxx for a really good copy Sub...that doesn't turn your wrist green and looks the biz......! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 As someone who works in a language that's not my maternal tongue, I can tell you, you play the language card when it saves your ass. I doubt, having read some of the dealers' posts, that they are unaware of what they're putting in their adverts. There's only one way to interpret "ETA 2892" no matter what the language. They expect us to play Sybil Fawlty to their Manuel. "It's ok, he meant mineral Glass. He's from Barcelona." Sometimes yes, and sometimes no. For instance, it may very well be customary in China to refer to an Asian copy of an ETA movement as an "ETA movement" ... what we see as a brand could also have an idiomatic defintion or generic use we are not familar with. We do it all the time here in the states... refer to "Kleenex" generically to denote tissues, "Google" as a verb and "Advil" to denote all forms of Ibupropen. "Xerox" is another example.Remember these guys are dealing with a diverse multi-tongued global market. Having said that, I will admit that to having a hard time rationalizing the use of "ETA 2892" or any other ETA brand generically, and the absence of input from one or two of our more notable dealers is not helping. I can certainly see where you would consider 'generisizing' the ETA brand as a streatch, and I agree with chrystal cranium, the term "copy" really needs to be used here. I also have to admit that I love the Fawlty Towers analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I'm not hearing any language from the dealer side (TTK exception) good or bad in this thread. The silence is deafning....and a bit incriminating. If these were honest mistakes in language barrier based miscommunications...that would be very easy to clear up. I'm not hearing a thing. Well said. That troubles me as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 I'm not hearing any language from the dealer side (TTK exception) good or bad in this thread. The silence is deafning....and a bit incriminating. If these were honest mistakes in language barrier based miscommunications...that would be very easy to clear up. I'm not hearing a thing. Let's not forget Silix chimed in and put their money where their mouth is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 Let's not forget Silix chimed in and put their money where their mouth is... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldeCrow Posted January 23, 2007 Report Share Posted January 23, 2007 Neil perhaps you are right, maybe I am one of the unluckiest ones here. I don't think so though, when some of the other quiet ones on these forums (I've even heard forum moderators get a little too honest a time or two) get loose lips they sing the same tune so either there are a lot of people around here who just have low standards or there are a few more people around here who just don't bother to complain. I did report and my review my first several rep purchases last year (on trc) before my fingers got tired. To your credit Neil the PO I got from you early last year was one of the best reps I have had. At least I didn't have to rebuild your watch like a snap together model and it ran flawlessly and had all the gaskets where the should be and the bracelet was the best quality of any I have seen so far. I did not mean to imply that the quality has not improved, I have a drawer in my watch toolbox just for the old reps to remind me how far they have come but they really are still no where near even a cheap genuine brand name watch. to make matters worse I have many brand name watches that came with nice boxes paperwork and warranty that are Swiss powered, assembled in Asia, and cost less than reps. Sometimes half as much especially when you start talking about Swiss 775x chronograph powered reps. So where is all this money going? not into making a rep that is as good as a genuine. I'm not saying that the reps should be as good as the watch they copy but they should at least come with sapphire when they say they are not sapphire coating and they should at least be real 316 stainless when they say they are and they should have all the gaskets they are supposed to and they should have all the screws tightened and they should not have tool marks on them that look like a three year old has been working at it with a pair of pliers and they should not have foundry dust, leftover lunch, and other crap inside them with the movements either. All of these things I have seen in replicas I have bought from the majority of our dealers in the last year! If I had had this kind of experience from just one dealer I would be inclined to dismiss it but I have bought at least one watch from just about every dealer and the problems are pretty much spread evenly so I am inclined to believe it is a systemic problem. I would love to buy ten or fifteen reps this year and have better than 50 percent garbage rate! Maybe 2006 was just a bad year for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotoman Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 We have. They don't listen, hence the point of this thread. So far, I get the impression that a few people think we're being naive and/or hypocritical to complain about dealers misleading us, but on the whole, the majority of people are relieved that this thread was started. Also, a few people haven't posted for fear of reprisal or whatever. On the whole, reception to this thread has been positive, especially from a few high-profile members, and in that respect, I refuse to accept the minority opinion that we're just naive hypocrites. My friend there is no doubt at the popularity of your topic, the numbers don't lie and if i were a dealer i would have some concern. - I never said you were naive or a hypocrit. but - i still wanted to put forth my opinion think if you take a step back and look at the larger picture we are lucky to have what we do - and i think that the non-seasoned members will see this bout of negativity and not take it in the same perspective as some others of us have. I'm happy to sign on with any issues re: mislablings of movements Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Are Andrew or Josh going to reply? I was expecting to hear something back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Are Andrew or Josh going to reply? I was expecting to hear something back... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMK000 Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Has anybody double checked that they (the dealers) know about this topic and issue ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craytonic Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 It is hard to miss a 15 page thread.... I waited patiently but would like to hear their side. I understand Josh probably won't see it or reply due to internet problems; hopefully Andrew knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 24, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 It is hard to miss a 15 page thread.... I waited patiently but would like to hear their side. I understand Josh probably won't see it or reply due to internet problems; hopefully Andrew knows. They both read the thread yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fitmic Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 They both read the thread yesterday. Why the silence then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Silence is golden.... golden.....!!!! ( Or at least ...plated!) Offshore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Actually they have been following the thread daily Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Well, friends - here just a "copy'n'paste" of what I've written about my newest watch, a Bell&Ross: This is the best example of the difference between the advertisement and the final product you receive. By the way: something like this NEVER happened to me before - I'm one of the guys who are not so picky about the "Dealer-Language" and mixed or copied movements. But getting something COMPLETELY different and then even trying to convince you with the beat-rate and the number of jewels..? That's like buying a Mercedes and finding a hyundai engine in it. When you complain to the dealer he just says: "hey man, whats your Problem ? This is a 4-Cylinder Engine - you can check that !" Yeah, really nice watch - an "eye-catcher" on your wrist. I have bought this one too - and I am very disappointed... The watch is advertised to have ETA-2892 movement and Super Luminova applied to the Dial and markers. Well, the Lume is just standard - far far away from SL ! It dosn't even glow as bright as SL when looking at it **immediately** after charging it. And after 20 seconds it's as low as we all know it from our other reps... Movement ? Well, that's the next joke. Like Finepics said (and he showed some quick pictures of the movement in another Thread) the movement is very very crappy and nowhere near an ETA-2892 and nowhere near a 2892-Copy !!! An example for 2892-Copy-movements is FM-2892 and Omega AT 2892 just look through the pictures of our Dealers to see how they should look like. By the way: the rotor of this movement is loud and the winding (IF you wind it manually) feels crappy. But now comes the hardest disappointment for me: I contacted the Dealer about this, his comment: I can replace you the watch but you'll get one with the same movement. It's 28'800 bph and 21J - you can test that... Well, so we are in a completely new situation meanwhile... It was ok to get copy-movements, mixed-movements, pay sapphire and get mineral (you remember this issue with the 47mm panerais ?). But now - we have to accept to buy (and pay premium!) for a 2892 movement (let's not care about ETA or Copy...) and then receive ANYTHING that has the same beat-rate and jewels ??? I'm really really unhappy about this and will continue trying to resolve this with the dealer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silix Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Just got chance to read through the discussion. I totally agree with Pugy. I know the rep world is a dirty world, we are dealing with illegal goods, but why could not be honest with each other? Seasoned members go find infomation on the misleading terms/white lies, but how about the new comers? Do new ppl have to pay their lesson before they could get what they are entitled? Now they are new movements out all the time, do mthe first buyers have to be cheated before the public realize what is going on. I love to make money, from the watches I sell to my buyers, but I absolutely hate the felling when my customer call me lier when he felt cheated. My answer to Pugy's call is we run our store as clean as possilbe, and will use this forum more often to share the news and clear doubts. Let the truth be heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonthebhoy Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 My answer to Pugy's call is we run our store as clean as possilbe, and will use this forum more often to share the news and clear doubts. Let the truth be heard. Glad to hear it Jay. Next! JTB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offshore Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Let the truth be heard. AMEN. Offshore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KB Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 very well said Jay Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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