hiker01 Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Come on dealers when you want to sell a new watch you have no trouble letting us all know about it, but now your silence is deafening. My wishful thinking, but lets hear your side of the story. Helloooooooooooooooooooo! Kinda sad that we haven't heard from them yet, but if ever they update their WEB Site/Store, we should all be patient because I know it would take some time. What with all those brands and models they advertise. One thing I'd like to see though, if they actually do this, is (my suggestion) to put a banner on their site saying so and also jumping in here and tell us about it......common Guys, where all waiting. We understand and we're always here as your loyal customers. just tell us exactly what we're buying!!! Thank you!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Watchmeister Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Just ask. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I wasn't bringing it up as a new issue. I went to a few websites, in particular, those that were touting this watch and those which usually have excellent photo documentation of their products, to see if there was any prior indication of a problem. I was surprised to find no pictures of the inside of this watch, in particular, on websites where photographs of the "works" are the norm in the advertisements. I find it hard to believe this was an oversight, and I find it equally hard to believe the better and more respected dealers here could ever hope to put this over on us, or risk the embarrasment of a public flogging such as this. They very openly worked with this particular community on this very watch. Someone was bound to open up this new and irresistable toy....and then howl bloody murder finding a worm in the apple. I don't know how they could have been ignorant of it...and yet I can't imagine tham risking this by covering it up. Very strange. 21 pages sure takes a long time to go through This is all starting to make sense... My experience with the ethics in question involves not the standard movements that are generally being discussed here, but the manual wind ETA/Unitas 6497, as well as the sapphire crystal issue. Two dealers, many questions and headaches abound. I purchased my second Fiddy (the first time it was too big, I wanted to try again and see if I could pull it off) from a trusted dealer on these forums. It was supposed to have a sapphire crystal. The water and temperature tests failed miserably, and the concensus here was that the crystal was not sapphire, but mineral... Too bad, but the dealer made good and a refund was given. What did sting was the shipping cost to get it to some other unknown customer who probably wouldn't know a sapphire crystal if it smacked him in the face. So far, I'm out $20 or so bucks and my wrist is bare Anyhoo... I thought I'd try it again, with another dealer that has the same spec watch WITH sapphire, WITH SWISS ETA movement, WITH swan neck and a supposedly much more accurate true to gen case that allows the movement to come out through the front instead of the back (I don't understand the benefit of this design (I surely would design it to come out the back ), but it is toted to be the ultimate). The second Fiddy arrived, I was bursting with anticipation. It was very nice, case of high quality, front crystal testing (water, temp) as sapphire, back crystal not coming back as positive, but I was willing to let that go to both trusting the dealer's word and lack of definitive proof not having a diamond tester close at hand. The movement lookd good too, aftermarket bridgework true engraving instead of stickers, swan neck regulator... the friggin works. I was pretty happy. I then got out my trusty loupe to look closer at the movement... amazing piece of equipment, these loupes... they turn beauty into ugliness real quick. Looking at the main gearing close to the mainspring, I noticed the gear teeth had some pretty massive burrs on them... Again, I put this aside due to my trust in the dealer and the extreme magnification of the loupe, but I did think it strange. I was still pretty happy knowing that I now have a sapphire crystal AND a Swiss movement with a swan neck regulator and engraved bridges... What else more could I ask for? Well... Super Luminova, of course! So... I brought the watch to my watchmaker for a refill. I slowly pulled it out of my pocket bursting with anticipation oin his reaction to this perfect rep... He takes it from me quickly dropping his permanently attached loupe to his eye. Looks good, he's inspecting every corner... He comes back with "Really great quality overall, shame about the copy movement". I should trust my instincts. No big deal really (well it is if I've been duped), it's keeping great time and all I want is Superlume so this sucker can glow... Got the watch a few hours later, on my wrist, can't keep my eyes off it... It is beautiful, but surely STILL way too big for me. Unfortunately, not even the most perfect fiddy rep will make me feel comfortable... Glad I didn't buy a gen! Anyhoo 2... I get back home and right on the email machine... The dealer got back to his supplier and they both came back adamant that it is what it is... Fine, despite the heavy burr, my watchmaker's words, I will trut my dealer to the end... I wore this watch but a couple of times and just couldn't find the love for it... I'm funny lookin', but I ain't no cartoon! LOL So I put the watch up for sale... $300 which is $110 less than I paid for it in the first place, hardly worn, special case, yadda yadda, sapphire crystal, swiss swan neck etc etc et all The watch sold after a while of being on the boards. It didn't go too far, just across the creak to New Zealand... THEN I get this message from the buyer saying that the movement is NOT swiss and that it has been reviewed by The Zigmeister etc etc... My heart started racing, my head started spinning... NO NO NO... not this friggin watch again!!! The flurry of emails started between me, the buyer, me, my dealer, my dealer his supplier, back again to me and around and around. My buyer wanted a partial refund for the incorrect movement, I was asking for SOMETHING solid from my dealer on this movement, the supplier was still adamant it was swiss... Watchonpo just purchased 100 of these movements... They must be swiss. Back and forth around and around My dealer offered a refund of $35 saying that this small matter shouldn't get in the way of our friendship etc etc... And I agree and decline to take the refund as this is all getting way too difficult for a watch I can not wear and especially one that I do not have any longer. I also refuse to take the watch back or give a refund to my buyer... I've lost way too much on this experiment to start giving refunds or even spending any more time on this friggin watch. Now this thread comes up rife with tales of woe (including mine) about fraud and outright deception.... I want to trust my dealer, but putting all this together and seeing that movement in the B&R is quite disheartening... I'm only gonna buy just a few more reps... then it's gens only for me from then on. Now seriously... You dealers (you know who you are) who are trying to pull the wool over OUR eyes.. Cut the [censored]in' [censored]... We're smarter than that and we're not gonna take it any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bansenshukai Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 (edited) 21 pages sure takes a long time to go through This is all starting to make sense... My experience with the ethics in question involves not the standard movements that are generally being discussed here, but the manual wind ETA/Unitas 6497, as well as the sapphire crystal issue. Two dealers, many questions and headaches abound. I purchased my second Fiddy (the first time it was too big, I wanted to try again and see if I could pull it off) from a trusted dealer on these forums. It was supposed to have a sapphire crystal. The water and temperature tests failed miserably, and the concensus here was that the crystal was not sapphire, but mineral... Too bad, but the dealer made good and a refund was given. What did sting was the shipping cost to get it to some other unknown customer who probably wouldn't know a sapphire crystal if it smacked him in the face. So far, I'm out $20 or so bucks and my wrist is bare Anyhoo... I thought I'd try it again, with another dealer that has the same spec watch WITH sapphire, WITH SWISS ETA movement, WITH swan neck and a supposedly much more accurate true to gen case that allows the movement to come out through the front instead of the back (I don't understand the benefit of this design (I surely would design it to come out the back ), but it is toted to be the ultimate). The second Fiddy arrived, I was bursting with anticipation. It was very nice, case of high quality, front crystal testing (water, temp) as sapphire, back crystal not coming back as positive, but I was willing to let that go to both trusting the dealer's word and lack of definitive proof not having a diamond tester close at hand. The movement lookd good too, aftermarket bridgework true engraving instead of stickers, swan neck regulator... the friggin works. I was pretty happy. I then got out my trusty loupe to look closer at the movement... amazing piece of equipment, these loupes... they turn beauty into ugliness real quick. Looking at the main gearing close to the mainspring, I noticed the gear teeth had some pretty massive burrs on them... Again, I put this aside due to my trust in the dealer and the extreme magnification of the loupe, but I did think it strange. I was still pretty happy knowing that I now have a sapphire crystal AND a Swiss movement with a swan neck regulator and engraved bridges... What else more could I ask for? Well... Super Luminova, of course! So... I brought the watch to my watchmaker for a refill. I slowly pulled it out of my pocket bursting with anticipation oin his reaction to this perfect rep... He takes it from me quickly dropping his permanently attached loupe to his eye. Looks good, he's inspecting every corner... He comes back with "Really great quality overall, shame about the copy movement". I should trust my instincts. No big deal really (well it is if I've been duped), it's keeping great time and all I want is Superlume so this sucker can glow... Got the watch a few hours later, on my wrist, can't keep my eyes off it... It is beautiful, but surely STILL way too big for me. Unfortunately, not even the most perfect fiddy rep will make me feel comfortable... Glad I didn't buy a gen! Anyhoo 2... I get back home and right on the email machine... The dealer got back to his supplier and they both came back adamant that it is what it is... Fine, despite the heavy burr, my watchmaker's words, I will trut my dealer to the end... I wore this watch but a couple of times and just couldn't find the love for it... I'm funny lookin', but I ain't no cartoon! LOL So I put the watch up for sale... $300 which is $110 less than I paid for it in the first place, hardly worn, special case, yadda yadda, sapphire crystal, swiss swan neck etc etc et all The watch sold after a while of being on the boards. It didn't go too far, just across the creak to New Zealand... THEN I get this message from the buyer saying that the movement is NOT swiss and that it has been reviewed by The Zigmeister etc etc... My heart started racing, my head started spinning... NO NO NO... not this friggin watch again!!! The flurry of emails started between me, the buyer, me, my dealer, my dealer his supplier, back again to me and around and around. My buyer wanted a partial refund for the incorrect movement, I was asking for SOMETHING solid from my dealer on this movement, the supplier was still adamant it was swiss... Watchonpo just purchased 100 of these movements... They must be swiss. Back and forth around and around My dealer offered a refund of $35 saying that this small matter shouldn't get in the way of our friendship etc etc... And I agree and decline to take the refund as this is all getting way too difficult for a watch I can not wear and especially one that I do not have any longer. I also refuse to take the watch back or give a refund to my buyer... I've lost way too much on this experiment to start giving refunds or even spending any more time on this friggin watch. Now this thread comes up rife with tales of woe (including mine) about fraud and outright deception.... I want to trust my dealer, but putting all this together and seeing that movement in the B&R is quite disheartening... I'm only gonna buy just a few more reps... then it's gens only for me from then on. Now seriously... You dealers (you know who you are) who are trying to pull the wool over OUR eyes.. Cut the [censored]in' [censored]... We're smarter than that and we're not gonna take it any more That sounds a lot like my experience in this story: http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showto...0&hl=Joshua. Who was the dealer, pray tell? Edited January 26, 2007 by Nouns Defions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvt Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 So why screw your buyer? I meamn take the watch back and give the refund or you are just passing the screw job along right? I mean is that any better than what the original dealer did to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 So why screw your buyer? I meamn take the watch back and give the refund or you are just passing the screw job along right? I mean is that any better than what the original dealer did to you? This was quite a while ago... and I was trusting the word of my dealer... He and his supplier are still insistant that this is an ETA movement. In regards to screwing my buyer... No I don't think so.. It IS a beautiful watch and it has been modded with gen super luminova as well (more big money out of my pocket). I didn't sell it because of movement issues, I sold it because I can not wear a Fiddy, it was my third attempt trying. I bring this up because all this is starting to confirm suspicions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r11co Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 This was quite a while ago... and I was trusting the word of my dealer... Good hint! I was a bit more blatant about it. What we have established is that a certain two dealers have been pushing the envelope a bit with their business practices. There are now enough documented experiences of buyers here to suggest an element of reasonable doubt as to their utter honesty and 'trustworthiness'. PS. The point has been made in this thread. I think it is now time to sit back and wait. Silence will speak volumes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLATINUM Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Good hint! I was a bit more blatant about it. What we have established is that a certain two dealers have been pushing the envelope a bit with their business practices. There are now enough documented experiences of buyers here to suggest an element of reasonable doubt as to their utter honesty and 'trustworthiness'. PS. The point has been made in this thread. I think it is now time to sit back and wait. Silence will speak volumes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 The point has been made in this thread. I think it is now time to sit back and wait. Silence will speak volumes... Will speak volumes ? Seems to me it already does. I'm currently in a process to resolve an issue (With the "famous" Bell&Ross watch) and will update you all when I know how it works out. It's good that the Dealer is working with me an offered a solution - but I'm curious how it works out at the end. Whatever you do to clear such an issue, you always will have additional costs and lose time (send back, loss in currency exchange, loss in time for packaging/sending). Normally I'm absolutely NOT picky about these things, I made lots of deals with members and dealers on the boards - everything went absolutely smooth - and if we had any problems, we always worked it out with the same smoothness for both parties. But in this case it's a little different, I especially asked BEFORE buying about the described features of this watch and made clear that I want it BECAUSE of this features. My questions were answered positive - and I ordered. So what do you think ? Do I have to carry the additional costs I had in this special case ? I think it would be fair to have them refunded too. I even think that I don't want to agree to share these costs - why should I ? I ordered a Cheese-Cake and got a slice of bread. (Little exageration to provoke a smile in this bad situation... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 So what do you think ? Do I have to carry the additional costs I had in this special case ? I think it would be fair to have them refunded too. I even think that I don't want to agree to share these costs - why should I ? I'd say this isn't a normal case. I'd suggest you try to get out of the situation losing the least cash possible. If they're not willing to help out on the postage, use their tactic and send it the cheapest way possible, show them the receipt and if it doesn't arrive, it's not your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I'd say this isn't a normal case. I'd suggest you try to get out of the situation losing the least cash possible. If they're not willing to help out on the postage, use their tactic and send it the cheapest way possible, show them the receipt and if it doesn't arrive, it's not your problem. Fully agree - that's my thought. But unfortunately this IS my problem as when the Watch doesn't arrive - I fear that I will see no money at all AND will have lost the watch... So this would mean I didn't lose the least cash possible - it would mean I would have lost the most cash possible. However, it will be shipped today - let's just see how it works out finally. My thoughts were just hypothetical and I wanted to hear your opinions - perhaps there'll be no problems at all and I get a refund incl. shipping costs ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Update. Narikaa posted this on RWI. I presume he didn't post here due to the crappy internet. I hope he doesn't mind my reposting it ... Well I have been unable to access the net due to the accursed state of connexions in China (I am currently in Guangzhou). For some reason there is a cyber clitch this evening which has bumped the broadband transfer rates back up to the dizzying speeds of dial up modem I can only but echo Neils comments....Please dont confuse me with any others who apparantly make deception their goal. I pick all my stock myself (and only offer for sale what I personally have - IN STOCK), pay for it 'up front' with my money, smuggle it back to the EU myself, photograph each watch myself, write (truthfully) the descriptions in the listigs myself, answer all enquiries (similarly truthfully) myself, anf finally pack and ship (usually same day) myself. NO LIES, NO DROPSHIPPING, NO 'AGENTS', IN SHORT NO B****HIT !!! None of my business but why it needs multi page threads on various fora to bottom out a definition of someone who 'mistakenly' embellishes a product with misrepresentations, then makes no move to correct same when notified ( err outed)....is a bit beyond me! Speaking of liars and theives you are of course all quite spoiled ............................... As I said above I am shopping in GZ at the moment were you dont need to sleuth out the Liars, Cheats & Theives as every last person selling watches here qualifies as one!!!!! So that's another dealer's opinion. We're still waiting for a few. You know who you are, folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Usil Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I don't know about anyone else but this is defineitley going to effect where I buy my next SEVERAL watches unless I see some changes forthcoming in advertized descriptions. Usil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Secondbaseman12 Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I don't know about anyone else but this is defineitley going to effect where I buy my next SEVERAL watches unless I see some changes forthcoming in advertized descriptions. Usil Same here Niels Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Boozers TT In my experience, Scandinavians are drunks... especially on the weekends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chronus Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I've just read some of the dealer website descriptions for the new B&R. ETA 2892 21J automatic movement is the prevailing description. No photos of open casebacks. Given what the photos of the actual movement in this new version of the watch look like these are not accurate claims. I don't know if our dealer community has been scammed into believing they were getting something they were not, or if it's out and out deception, but these claims go way beyond selling something that looks VERY much like a 2892 that actually has no ETA lineage. These advertising claims need to be withdrawn. They are simply not true. I would grant a point of argument to a dealer who wants to claim an ETA baseplate with Asian parts stacked onto it gives him enough "ETA" in his movement to call it an ETA,.....but not this. This was such an eagerly anticipated watch. What a shame. An aside from the discussion at hand: I really don't know why they made such a big thing of using ETA 2892 in these B&R reps, I'd have been happy with genuine ETA 2824 or 2836. Unless it was to push the price up...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddhead Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Update. Narikaa posted this on RWI. I presume he didn't post here due to the crappy internet. I hope he doesn't mind my reposting it ... So that's another dealer's opinion. We're still waiting for a few. You know who you are, folks. Well that is a very strong disclaimer.. and I think it is great that he came out with it. The only thing I have ever purchased from Reg are Pens and tools, but he always came accross well, and he fixed a problem I had with a Pen in lightening speed. These kind of responses and validations go along way with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Its mighty wrong so lie on movments and such. But again its funny have i can buy a LV sub from River at 99$ or a Ferrari Panerai 21j 99€ asian and sell it for more then 150-170€ on the marked in my country and people are happy. Its part of the game. I now i buy crap when buying reps the hublot is like something i never woud buy becasue the high price and i now its lacks the quality controll like all the other reps. In the end i dont feel cheated becasue its just a replica. My Gen Breit emg is so long beyond any reps its just amazing i whish i had more money to bu gens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 But again its funny have i can buy a LV sub from River at 99$ or a Ferrari Panerai 21j 99€ asian and sell it for more then 150-170€ on the marked in my country and people are happy. Yes, people are happy until they find out they're being ripped off. I'm sure your friends paying you 50 euros for basically sending an email are happy today, but if they accidentally see how little work you're doing for your 50€, they'll suddenly be less happy. Just like Finepics being happy with his B&R right up to the moment he opened it up and found it was junk inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devedander Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Pug might be nice if you take the responses from dealers and edit them up into the first post... that way people just jumping in won't miss the pages with their replies and those who replied get credit... would go nicely towards not mixing up which dealers are in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Customer review of the B&R special edition off PC website "In owers beatiful but unsafe World, to take decision about, if its or not a good idea, to go out with Your beloved and expensive Swiss Watch it's not easy. Now there is a good solution who make possible to use it all days... A Perfect Clone of It !!! Yes, an accurate clone sutch the BR01-92 Ld Ed make it possible and for an affordable cost. The idea is not new, for more them 100 years the finest Jellerys Houses make for there clients accurate clones of diamond rings, pearls necklers, gold jewels, etc. The real ones are in a safe place, at home or in a bank. Afther long years with very bad watch replicas in the market, a new and carefull generation of replacement watches was born - the Perfect Clones. His manager and owner is Joshua. Whit him, its possible to find the clone of Your beloved watch. Maybe is an IWC, an Panerai or an Bell and Ross, maybe is onother one... put the question to Joshua and Your problem about safe is no more a problem !!!" I wonder what he'll think if one of us email him this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugwash Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Pug might be nice if you take the responses from dealers and edit them up into the first post... that way people just jumping in won't miss the pages with their replies and those who replied get credit... would go nicely towards not mixing up which dealers are in question. Not a bad idea. I'll do that shortly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manuel Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 I have been told that rich brazilians put replica watches in their safes with some cash money so when thefts come to rob them get nothing but crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fredrik m Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 In my experience, Scandinavians are drunks... especially on the weekends Yepp!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piratedzeus Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 The BS about the wrong movements should stop... Venus should be called Venus... OT: Chronus clean your PM Inbox! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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