mvt wont regulate?

[Timelord]

Greetings fellow members!  
I have recently serviced  my eta  2836-2 (not my first either) but have experienced something strange.  Regardless  of how I try to regulate it by shifting the coarse regulator arm, it keeps running at a rate of 4 minutes fast per hour!   I looked at hair spring in case  it had a sticky hair spring, re oiled the end stone which has that horrible 3 prong spring that keeps flying off when I try to put it back in ( successfully done) but always runs at the same rate!  Has anyone ever seen this happen?  I am running out of wath could be the cause!  Thanks 

[Sogeha]

I’m not really the best qualified to advise you, but I would want to hook it up to a proper timing machine and see that the basics are there. Amplitude and beat error. I know if those things are stuffed, no amount of moving the go faster lever will bring joy

[alligoat]

Did you clean the hairspring? I watched my watchmaker dip the hairspring in a cleaning solution, allow it to dry and reinstalled it and voila, the watch was running at a good rate. Before cleaning it was also way fast like yours.

[ceejay]

2836-2 uses a Etachron regulator.

 

You need to study the correct method and use the correct tools, to do it properly.

 

Watch & learn... 

 

[Timelord]

Alligoat  said:
Did you clean the hairspring? I watched my watchmaker dip the hairspring in a cleaning solution,

 

Yes, I dipped it into a product called horelode and also the e d stones that were a bummer to put back.  The small drop of 9010 in the middle of both jewels

 

ceejay said:
2836-2 uses a Etachron regulator.
You need to study the correct method and use the correct tools, to do it properly.
Watch & learn... 

 

Thanks !Great video!   I am not so sure if it is the regulator pins as the mvt was telling good time before I got too confident in choosing to service it after it sat 12 years in one of my drawers.  Maybe I stuffed up touching something that I am not even aware of!  Lesson learnt!  I should have left it alone!  Playing around with those etachrons is fairly skillful business

thank you all for your input  

[Justasgood]

Have you tried to magnetize it?

[automatico]

"Great video!"

 

It is informative all right but if someone spends that much time dicking with an ETA 2892 they will starve to death...unless they charge $500 for a tune up.  Imho.

I have known three (3) bonafide pro watch repair guys that are capable of that kind of work but they could not afford it (takes too long) and the customer can't either.

 

So...since I work mostly on 'trader junk,' I'll make a guess as to what is wrong with the ETA in question:

1...Magnetized.  Maybe.

2...Dirty or oily hairspring.  Maybe.

Something is making the watch run too fast and the two things above are common culprits but usually cause more gain per hour than 4 minutes.

 

Check the reserve by removing the autowind assembly (to get it out of the way and save wear on reversers when hand winding), then hand wind it 35 or 40 turns to see how long it runs and check it in 24 hours to see how much time it has gained and if the balance motion appears to be much more sluggish than when fully wound (a little bit can be expected).  When hand winding, turn the crown until you can feel the bridle slip in the mainspring barrel to make sure it is slipping because if it is sticky or not slipping it will cause the watch to run fast when fully wound because the MS can not slip to release tension on the time train.  Sometimes a weak mainspring will not supply enough power to give the balance a good 'kick' and this can result in a short, choppy 'kick' also causing the watch too run fast. 

 

Btw...did you see any dark specks on the cap jewels at all?  If so, they have to be removed and the hole jewels also have to be super clean.   Rub the cap jewel over a business card etc to remove any residue after cleaning it, before oiling it.  Oil only the cap jewel (about 2/3 of its area, centered) and lay the hole jewel/setting on top of it, put it in place, close the spring/keeper.  Harder to do than oiling the balance staff where it pokes through the hole jewel then setting the cap jewel on top of it but that is not the proper way to do it imho because the oil can travel away from the hole jewel.  It stays on the cap jewel a lot better.

 

When it is running after being fully wound, see if the balance has good balance motion (degrees of motion) and if the balance is 'frisky' and has a good 'kick' or 'lazy' with a weak 'kick' and not a whole lot of motion.  A lazy 'kick' can result in gaining time because the balance starts to 'short stroke' and not give a full 'kick'.  If it is 'kicking' too hard and fast it will run fast.

 

Four minutes gain in an hour is not a whole lot so the problem ight be hard to find compared to gaining 20 minutes per hour etc.

 

Troubles like this are why I usually wear an Accutron II. 

[Timelord]

 

I am having great difficulties after I log in and try to post a response which just logs me out and have to start all over again.  Don't know what is happening but hope this will post

 

On 5/20/2020 at 5:47 PM, Justasgood said:

Have you tried to magnetize it?

 

I had totally overlooked this magnetism issue before I re dismantled the movement again, purely because in the past my magnetised mvts always picked up much more than just 4 minutes per hour and my demagnetizer has given up the ghost.  When I put it back together, I will see and hope that this is the issue, because this has really been a night mare.

 

 

On 5/20/2020 at 11:44 PM, automatico said:

"Great video!"

 

It is informative all right but if someone spends that much time dicking with an ETA 2892 they will starve to death...unless they charge $500 for a tune up.

 

Check the reserve by removing the autowind assembly (to get it out of the way and save wear on reversers when hand winding), then hand wind it 35 or 40 turns to see how long it runs and check it in 24 hours to see how much time it has gained and if the balance motion appears to be much more sluggish than when fully wound (a little bit can be expected).  

 

Btw...did you see any dark specks on the cap jewels at all?  If so, they have to be removed and the hole jewels also have to be super clean.   Rub the cap jewel over a business card etc to remove any residue after cleaning it, before oiling it.  Oil only the cap jewel (about 2/3 of its area, centered) and lay the hole jewel/setting on top of it, put it in place, close the spring/keeper.  Harder to do than oiling the balance staff where it pokes through the hole jewel then setting the cap jewel on top of it but that is not the proper way to do it imho because the oil can travel away from the hole jewel.  It stays on the cap jewel a lot better.

 

Troubles like this are why I usually wear an Accutron II. 

 

The video was good on an educational point of view but agree that in practice it would be  unrealistically unfeasible for any watchmaker to play around for so long unless he was doing it for the church.

 

I have a 10x loupe and could not see anything to raise red flags like my previous services.  Unless there is a flea's eyelash somewhere in there, then that may be the problem!  I am inclined to go along with your suggestion that it might be magnetized (hopefully!!!) Will see when I put it back together!!   I hate, hate and hate the spring on these models as they are 3 pointed pieces that totally need to come off as opposed to gate fold springs that just lift up while remaining attached to the top.  Nightmare to put in and maybe something must have got trapped there?.  

 

BTW I always put the assembled automatic unit last after I have tried to time them purely to also give me access to the regulator arm which is always hidden under the automatic bridge.  I had also removed the complete balance assembly and replaced it into my Rado Diastar which usually runs ok and it also picked up the same rate, so I am adamant that it is the balance assembly.  The other option for me is that I could cheat and learn nothing out of this and buy one complete new on ebay but are from China, for clone standards which could be problems because;

 

(1) they may be as pathetic as the complete clones themselves

 

(2)they might also have the same regulation problems

 

and

(3) may never reach me with all the worlds problems with any items posted from China.

 

If I were to find a genuine eta (at a feasible price)  they are sold separately and will need to be assembled bringing me back to the same problem of putting them in beat and in time.  So it is a lose, lose situation!!!

I am hoping it is magnetism, 

 

As with tuning fork models they too have big big problems as mine could never be regulated

Thanks guys, much appreciate

[automatico]

"I hate, hate and hate the spring on these models as they are 3 pointed pieces that totally need to come off as opposed to gate fold springs that just lift up while remaining attached to the top."

 

I made a 'special tool' out of a small plastic paint brush handle to r/r the cussed ETA round keepers.  After sizing the handle down to just a hair smaller than the OD of the keeper spring and flattening the end, lightly drill a dent in the center of the handle leaving an outer edge that turns the spring.

 

Horotek makes a Novodiac tool (p/n 03.001) for $35 or $40:

 

I can not understand why anyone making common movements would opt for some of the goofy springs/keepers out there over a simple, foolproof Incabloc type.  I know why (has to be $$) but can not understand it.  ETA has a shock assembly like the Incabloc (Etachoc) but they still use the horrible little Novodiac spring in some movements.

 

 

 

"As with tuning fork models they too have big big problems as mine could never be regulated."

 

I have had my share of tuning fork Accutron problems too and that is why I wear an Accutron II 262 kHz quartz model instead of a 'hummer'.

Watch Nostalgia is fine and dandy...until you wear it. 

[horologist]

One just has to be careful with those end stones!  I lost mine while oiling it as that horrible novodiac star spring piece of junk fell off .  The worst part of servicing the movement that sends shudders down my spine!

[mymanmatt]

Did you change the pallet fork or escape wheel? Those need to be matched. You never gave the numbers from your machine. What are they? Need the numbers in all 3 position

[Timelord]

17 hours ago, mymanmatt said:

Did you change the pallet fork or escape wheel? Those need to be matched. You never gave the numbers from your machine. What are they? Need the numbers in all 3 position

 

Hello  & thank you for your input!

 

It is an eta 2836-2 with the horrible Novodiac spring !  I didn't change anything anything on it. Pallet and balance assembly are all original.  Was working fine until I awoke sleeping dogs and they bit hard!!!!   I am in the process of assembling it again over the weekend! Maybe there could have been something that caused this problem.  I also diamagnetised it so will have to wait and see!!!  I lost the damn cap jewel inside the shock assembly.  The spring fell out while I was dissasembling it and will look in the junk box to find one.  I know you cannot interchange the incabloc on top and novodiac on the bottom as I tried this and it didn't work

[automatico]

"I know you cannot interchange the incabloc on top and novodiac on the bottom as I tried this and it didn't work."

 

I changed the complete assembly and got away with it...novo on back side, inca type on dial side.

https://rwg.cc/topic/192105-jmb-1016-project-update/

 

[Timelord]

 

Update!
Well ,,,,, spent Saturday night assembling a re-cleaned movement.  Dotted all the ighs and crossed  offall the tees using the right oils, not too little and not too much. just covering below each cup of each jewel.  Did not use finger cots, but full polyprene gloves.  What else did I do?  Ah also had a mask to avoid breathing on it while assembling it.  Oils used D5, 9010, 941 and molykote Dx thanks for the input given here.

Upon assembling the balance, I took a deep breath and thought of all positive vibes.  It began to tick and thought "Finally" -  both the odds and the Gods were on my side UNTIL I  tightened the balance [censored] screw.  Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh  it stopped!!!!!  I thought this cannot be happening!!!!  I untightened the screw and gave the balance wheel a bit of a shake and it was kicking again!  Ok, fingers crossed and started to tighten it again.  I thought I was a victim in an Alfred Hitchcock horror movie.  it stopped. !!!!!!  Did the balance staff grow in the cleaning fluid?  This is what one expects from a longer balance staff!! It was a perfectly ticking watch with same balance assembly before I got too confident and went ahead to clean it and I definitely recall it had a tightened balance [censored]. Result is that I now have a regulating problem in addition to a balance wheel not running!!! I have stripped and serviced a dozen of them which 3 of them have let me down but this is the mother of all let downs.  Well, I will call it the day and have to label this female movement as a let down for now and just have to accept defeat for until I get my confidence back. As Bugs Bunny would say, Well folks thats it!!! and thanks again for all your support.

 

On 5/28/2020 at 9:20 PM, automatico said:

"I know you cannot interchange the incabloc on top and novodiac on the bottom as I tried this and it didn't work."

 

I changed the complete assembly and got away with it...novo on back side, inca type on dial side.

https://rwg.cc/topic/192105-jmb-1016-project-update/

 

 

That is very clever.  Just loved that post!!!!  This forum just keeps getting better with all these great ideas!!  I always wondered about this mix and match of incablocs with other setups!!  Thanks again!!!!

[Ado213]

Hmm , very strange, check these issues

 

1) pallet fork is not touching the underside of the roller table when balance is screwed down

2) Check the balance staff is true and not bent at the pinions, if your removing the balance from the [censored] to check this, remove the hairspring and collet also and check the balance in the movement without pallet fork for rotational freedom

3) Balance jewels are the correct ones, I am presuming no changes have been made

4) Has the balance [censored] been cleaned, could it have been bent slightly on cleaning, there is a way of overcoming this

5) Curb pins are not frictionally holding the hairspring

6) Hairspring is flat to the balance wheel and definitely not touching either the balance wheel or the underside of the [censored]

 

7) Check for rundown. let the movement down, remove balance, remove pallet fork and bridge, wind the movement only three or four turns. Watch carefully the escape wheel. As the watch runs down it should at the end of the power run slightly in reverse, so the escape wheel changes rotational direction.  If the escape wheel stops dead and does not "reverse" there may be other issues. This is a common service test and should always be carried out. It gives you a very good insight into amplitude and power reserve.

 

 

 

 

Oops, forgot to add, I think you issue is the balance [censored] being bent downwards

[horologist]

I am wondering if the balance assembly is original to this movement?   Do you recall if it was wedged underneath with a shim or something to counterbalance the staff height!   
Why?
I have had this exact problem especially with clone mvts when buying parts that although you would think are universally interchangeable BUT are NOT!  
I too would lose confidence if hit with all these negatives when going through the school of hard knocks!  Horology is a science and an art which is really of degree standard in my book!

[Ado213]

It goes without saying that perhaps the OP has been over enthusiastic when replacing the shock spring in the balance [censored] ( I wish this word would not be censored out all the time its a legitimate description !)

 

If this is the case and bearing in mind there will be less than O.1 mm end shake then it more than likely will be this, To test this none destructively., it is possible to raise three or four "lands" with a screwdriver or broach on the mainplate where the [censored] fits to it, That is to raise the mainplate brass by divots to the required height, you wont need much land to test this but it will prove a point.

 

its best practice to raise the land at the front edge of the balancecock, nearest the balance wheel

 

 

[Timelord]

23 hours ago, Ado213 said:

Hmm , very strange, check these issues

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

..............................

Oops, forgot to add, I think you issue is the balance [censored] being bent downwards

many thanks for your detailed list of troubleshooting ideas.  I believe that the problem is predominantly me with my limited skills as I am no professional..  Because I got half a dozen eta movements running within 5 seconds per day after an amateur service still puts me light years away from someone who is highly trained in this esoteric profession!!!  Everything is the same as before service. I always put the balance on the mainplate when cleaning it to avoid all sorts of potential damage.  I never had problems with incablocs, only with the horrible novodiac set up.  I checked to see the spring and removed the jewel again much against my wishes.

 

I have gone through most of your suggestions and have yet to put my finger on the real problem as I am inclined to also believe what fellow member "Horologist" suggested that there could have been something under the balance Bridge (not exactly the correct word as it is held with one screw instead of two)  which after having been cleaned twice in such a short time could have come off.  I vaguely recall something like a foil of some sort n the cleaning fluid which could have covered the base for the bridge to sit on.  I cant say for sure!! I  saw all the parts unscathed so didn't think twice about it as I had never seen this occurrence with other exact same movements.  

 

I am just sorry that this has used up a lot of everyone's time, thinking that by now it would have been simpler.  Curiosity killed the cat and if I cannot get it right, I will have to take it with me when I go out of town to see a retired watchmaker I knew to see it in the flesh as a 3D picture tells over 1000 words.  He introduced me to this wonderful world of horology when we visited his workshop as a child.  

 

Just out of interest, he has always amazed me as he never had an electronic timing machine and did everything manually such as regulating and setting in beat without it.  Dont know how he did it.?? All I know is that he started his training in the early 1950's  and  always fascinated me with his lathes that did all sorts. Hopefully he is still alive.  As Horologist said this is almost like a degree  training.  

[ceejay]

You sure you're not 'long screwing' that balance c*ck!?

 

Wouldn't be the first time someones put a long screw in a short hole....

[Timelord]

On 6/1/2020 at 1:02 PM, ceejay said:

You sure you're not 'long screwing' that balance c*ck!?

 

Wouldn't be the first time someones put a long screw in a short hole....

I am having difficulties to post after I log on also!!!

 

Well you definitely have a point here!!!! I looked in my junk box for shorter screws and found something slightly shorter.  The shortest screw I ever seen. and bingo, it ran until just the final tightening turn and then it stopped!!! Much better than what was there before.  I usually screw these screws back into the mainplate when removing them for cleaning.  Just a habit of mine.  I am trying to find a way to tighten the kock (purposely mispelled for the reasons described above) to make it stable enough not to move while wearing the watch but at the same time keeping the damn spring oscillating,  Some juggling to do! Thanks again for your input as I don't take any ideas lightly. 

 

All responses received have been great and helpful if not directly to this problem but to other problems I was going to post about.  Again without overlooking anyone, thanks again also to the long list posted by Aldo213, I managed to fix an issue with another movement which had been giving me problems!  I will keep you guys posted and thanks again for your commedable efforts in helping me!!!  Much appreciated!!!!

[Timelord]

An Update!
i thought I owe this forum especially members that took the time to help me with some feedback as to what I found! 
As I had to go out of town today for unavoidable duties, I also  took my little nightmare with me to stop by an elderly 93 year old watch maker Luigi who was once close friends with my late parents.  I was pleasantly surprised to find that he is still with us and as active as I remembered him enjoying his sip of Strega liqueur and a short black!

After a short chat on old times( excuse the pun) he looked at my movement and pointed out that there was a slight bend on one of the regulator pins even though  hairy spring was breathing evenly between the two pins which somehow latched the spring on sway. How the hell he saw that at his age with a 2.5x loupe made me feel as if I was a total idiot!  He also pointed out that the staff was a tad taller but did not have one to replace it as he is obviously retired and did not expect my sudden request! 

The moral to the story is that somehow prior to service the watch must have been running well with the regulator pin problem and since I did not buy this movement new, someone must have propped up the balance bridge to get it working!  Lesson learnt!  If it ain't broke do not try to fix if as if was running well!  I thought of doing the right thing by servicing it, but it bit me hard in the @$!

[Justasgood]

Sorry to hear of the issue but happy you finally have an answer!

[Nanuq]

What an oddysey.  I'm glad you finally have your answer.  These old school watch smiths are a marvel to work with.  I have a 62 year old Submariner and it was running poorly so walking home one day I popped into a jewelers shop with a small Rolex sign in the window.  The old guy behind the counter perked up his ears when he overheard me describing it to his pretty salesgirl, and asked to see it.  He listened for a moment and handed it back "the beat is all wrong and it badly needs a service".  I thought shenanigans so I challenged him "how can you tell?" and he gave me a withering stare "just listen to it man!"

 

That was the start of a long friendship.  We talked Submariners for an hour and as I was leaving I asked how old the thing was?  He popped off the band, looked at the serial number and said "April, 1958".  I thought shenanigans again so again I challenged him.  It was then he took me into the Holy of Holys, his workshop.  My God.  He opened the thickest book I ever saw, rummaged around and found the page.  Ran his finger down a column and poked it.  I looked, and sure enough ... my serial number was late first quarter, 1958.      

 

Tom Nesbit.  Genius.  After we moved back to Alaska many years later I popped into a jewelers shop, again for my old Sub, and the kid behind the counter struck me as a bit wonkish, geeky, uncomfortable around people but friendly with watches and ... he wore a lab coat.  Just like someone else I know.  He listened to it and diagnosed it in a moment.  I thought "there's no way....." and I called shenanigans.  "Where did you learn to do that, Mister Lab Coat?"  He told me "I apprenticed under an old school watchmaker..." and I smiled and completed his sentence for him.  He was shocked that I knew Tom, but there are certain skills and traits that identify us.  When you've seen enough of how something is supposed to look and supposed to run, you recognize it immediately.  And you also know immediately when it's not quite right.

 

[horologist]

On 6/11/2020 at 2:00 AM, Nanuq said:

What an oddysey.  I'm glad you finally have your answer.  These old school watch smiths are a marvel to work with.  I have a 62 year old Submariner and it was running poorly so walking home one day I popped into a jewelers shop with a small Rolex sign in the window.  The old guy behind the counter perked up his ears when he overheard me describing it to his pretty salesgirl, and asked to see it.  He listened for a moment and handed it back "the beat is all wrong and it badly needs a service".  I thought shenanigans so I challenged him "how can you tell?" and he gave me a withering stare "just listen to it man!"

 

That was the start of a long friendship.  We talked Submariners for an hour and as I was leaving I asked how old the thing was?  He popped off the band, looked at the serial number and said "April, 1958".  I thought shenanigans again so again I challenged him.  It was then he took me into the Holy of Holys, his workshop.  My God.  He opened the thickest book I ever saw, rummaged around and found the page.  Ran his finger down a column and poked it.  I looked, and sure enough ... my serial number was late first quarter, 1958.      

 

Tom Nesbit.  Genius.  After we moved back to Alaska many years later I popped into a jewelers shop, again for my old Sub, and the kid behind the counter struck me as a bit wonkish, geeky, uncomfortable around people but friendly with watches and ... he wore a lab coat.  Just like someone else I know.  He listened to it and diagnosed it in a moment.  I thought "there's no way....." and I called shenanigans.  "Where did you learn to do that, Mister Lab Coat?"  He told me "I apprenticed under an old school watchmaker..." and I smiled and completed his sentence for him.  He was shocked that I knew Tom, but there are certain skills and traits that identify us.  When you've seen enough of how something is supposed to look and supposed to run, you recognize it immediately.  And you also know immediately when it's not quite right.

 

This has been a spectacular thread by Timelord and I have truly enjoyed it with  everyone’s responses making this forum a real privilege to be part of!  Good to see that some answer was found even if he still has not resolved the issue 

 

I have also met some very old school Artisan professionals including watchmakers that did everything by hand without electronic timing machines!  There is art and there is skill!  Watchmaking is a science in its own right and only very few people can see this!  Sadly schools and the education system are not what they use to be- well at least in my country! Here you learn more by staying out of school than by going to school!

[Nanuq]

There are a few things in life where you can truly say it's much more of an art form than a science.  Any robot can make a watch, but an artisan builds a timepiece.