Stephane Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Dear All, Some of you might know that I started a very ambitious project with a respected member here. He is a true artist, a great watchmaker and his mods are simply unbelievable. Unfortunately he is also very modest and busy. I promised I would never reveal his forum name. He's nick name is thus MM, for Mystery Modder. The Rolex Sea Dweller If you want to collect genuine vintage Rolex Sea Dweller, you'd better be ready to be disappointed! First, they cost a fortune and second there are no absolute references, no certitudes. Rolex is a funny company: - poor available archives. - few serious testimonies from ex-employees. - mix parts between the "current model" and the next upgrade, numerous suppliers, various replacement dials, case backs,… - on top of that, service happened very often on the Red Sea Dwellers. Hands, dials, and case back were changed. To summarize, the genuine collectors and experts will almost never say "There is…" but more often "There seem to be…" How can we, poor rep collectors, build a nice one? There are very good resources on the internet to learn more about these beauties. One of my favourite is DoubleRedSeaDweller.com. Another one is RedWatches. Advice Bear in mind all the way, if you like the vintage Sea Dwellers, that there are lots of variations. If you want to start a mini collection like I did, don't become too obsessive with details otherwise you will feel sad in the end. The Trilogy We decided to go for different aging levels and some variations in parts, assuming that in 40 years, the watches were serviced, altered,...lost pearls. The idea is to have 3 different watches in the end but build a mini collection with a real consistency. The Single Red This watch was originally traded with Phoband. It is the oldest Sea Dweller. According to most sources, it was likely produced as a test watch for the divers of Comex only. This version was not for sale and is from the first part of 1967 (probably, the most common word for Vintage Rolies). The case back should be carrying the "GAS ESCAPE VALVE PATENT PENDING" text. As you see, on mine, it's not the case…yet. Maybe one day we will see such a case back pop up, who knows. What did MM do on mine? Dial is aged to the limit (40 years old watch, remember). The date wheel is a "Ubi". The crystal is a genuine T39 Super Dome. The hands have been heavily aged and look just fantastic to my opinion. The crown is genuine, the crown guards have been shaved. The lug holes are drilled to accept genuine springbars and the watch does have genuine bars. The bezel is not the original MBW one. It is very different, really hard to find these days and quite expensive. You must press it down to be able to turn it. Just like divers with big rubber gloves would like to have it for security reasons. The modern ones are unidirectional now. But, in the beginning, Rolex didn't really think about that! What else will be done? A better insert will be installed soon, genuine if possible. Another think I am considering is have a slow beat movement installed. The Double Red This watch was purchased from TTK. This is the commercial version of the Sea Dweller that was in production between 1971 and 1977 (or 79 according to some sources). The case back should look like this probably. Mine does looked like this first (pretty close, isn't it!) Now it looks like this (aged a bit more) What is done on mine? Dial is aged, not as much a the single red. The date wheel was not a "Ubi" one, but this has changed in january 2008. Edit: january 8, 2008. The date wheel is a Ubi one now ! The crystal is a Clark T39 Super dome, not genuine thus, but honestly, a very good alternative and much cheaper. The hands have been aged… The crown is genuine, the crown guards have been shaved and the lug holes drilled to accept genuine springbars. The bezel is the original MBW one. The insert is a ClassicWatchParts.com one and the numbers are "fatter". What is left to be done? A riveted bracelet should be installed as I have no funds now to get a genuine one of course. The next mod will probably be to swap the 2836-2 for a slow beat movement. The Great White This watch was traded with Kelster. This is the most recent version of the "Old" Sea Dweller (according to TheWatchQuote, it's from 1975 to 1982 , followed by the Sapphire Crystal 16660 in 1980, the transitional WG and finally the 16600 in 1989). The case back should look like this probably. Mine does look like this but there is a chance it changes soon as the MBK come with the correct one now. Update july 5th, 2008: Because I have 3 vintage SDs, I always dreamed that the Great White would have the latest version of the case back. Oh, of course, some Great Whites came with a "Double Red" case back. But I prefer this one Two good friends of mine, Yello and RepAustria put their efforts together to offer this one to me. Guys, thank you so much. You did a fantastic job in finding one Yello and by aging it RepAustria! What is done on mine? Dial is aged of course but not that much as this watch is pretty recent. The date wheel is a "Ubi" one. The crystal is a Genuine Flat T39 which is correct for the Great White. The hands have been aged…and a bit damaged (on purpose of course). The Tritium is falling off the hands… The crown is genuine. The crown guards have been shaved (by Kelster) and the lug holes drilled. Genuine springbars are installed. The bezel is the original one. The insert is genuine. What should be done next? The case back is the priority of course, but a slow beat might be offered too. The end Well, is this project finished? Not yet. Do I want it to finish? Not sure. Genuine bracelets could be added to the list to keep the project open for another year. I am a very lucky guy that MM accepted to start such a project and still want to continue it. Thanks MM. I love the work you do, especially on these dials and hands but also all the valuable information I gather. Bye for now @All: thanks for looking and reading. Cheers Stephane Some Group Shots From left to right, per birth date: Single Red, Double Red, Great White. From Top: Great White, Single Red, Double Red. From left to right: Great White, Single Red, Double Red. From left to right: Great White, Single Red, Double Red. From Top: Great White Genuine T39 Flat, Single Red Genuine T39 Super dome, Double Red Clark Super dome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosnik Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 Verry interesting! Thank you Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pfff Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 great project ! thanks for sharing it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cucumber_Jones Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Awesome! What a post. I hate posting three photos as it takes so long. This is great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HauteHippie Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 They look great. I especially love the single red. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TTK Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Fantastic post Stephane .......great to see your dedication to obtaining some very distinctive items......I'm sure there are a number of members who must be quite envious........and.....quite the photographer......aren't we..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 I'm sure there are a number of members who must be quite envious....... You're not kidding!! Some fantastic watches you have there Stephane. Did you want me to PM or email my address to send them to?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star69 Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 :wub: undeliverable ! this should be pinned as reference for the vintage Sea Dweller. Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dizzy Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 absolutely amazing!! those macro pics are unbelievable. I LOVE your single red dial and hands. this is exactly how i want to age my MBW1680 when i build it. Can you give any info as to what u did to the hands and dial to achieve that effect? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UB7 Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 I just drooled on my keyboard...Nice watches mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jetsons Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Fantastic post, pics and of course, vintage beauties! The art work performed on dial/hands on the single red is something very special. Amazing work by I believe, RepAustria. I hope you enjoy them, Stephane! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted November 2, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Amazing work by I believe, RepAustria. I hope you enjoy them, Stephane! Oh yes I enjoy them very much. Simply a pain to choose which one to wear There is indeed a case back I bought from RepAustria, but he didn't do the mods, unfortunately. @ ALL Thank you so much for your kind words. Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukes Posted November 2, 2007 Report Share Posted November 2, 2007 Stephane, like everyone else said... FANTASTIC collection and write up!! Wear them in good health... Which one do you prefer wearing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted November 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 Which one do you prefer wearing? Well, that is a hard one Lukes. They are so different that so far I rotate them and have the impression they are new to my wrist. But, even if this could be a surprise, the one I really prefer on the wrist is the great white. There is something classy about it, lot of clarity, easy to read, and still vintage look and feeling. I think it's this one that will be my beater in the long term... Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namjah Posted November 3, 2007 Report Share Posted November 3, 2007 The aging on the dials looks so believable. Nice job Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mezzanine Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Well, that is a hard one Lukes. They are so different that so far I rotate them and have the impression they are new to my wrist. But, even if this could be a surprise, the one I really prefer on the wrist is the great white. There is something classy about it, lot of clarity, easy to read, and still vintage look and feeling. I think it's this one that will be my beater in the long term... Cheers Stephane These are some awesome modded watches you have, Stephane. I'm thinking about a project for myself with a double red SD. I was surprised when you said you preferred the flat-top T39 to the superdome. If you had the option of both crystals for the DRSD, would you stay with the superdome for accuracy? Or would you go with the superdome, which is still viable, and may be your preferred crystal? Anyways, the dial aging effect is something that I'm still trying to learn about. I'm thinking soaking a dial in coffee over night, then doing a lume job, might get some of the effect- but you're right, the person who was doing your dials is a real artist. I like the level of aging with your double red. I think with these vintage projects of ours, one of the goals should be to actually create an older looking watch. It may not be as desirable in the gen world, in terms of the condition of the watch for sale, but in replicas, showing conditions of having been worn, the case rounded a bit, some effects of having been polished over time, are all desirabe ways to create the passage of time effect. The aged appearance in a vintage rollie usually comes from the dial, and then moves outward, but the dial is primary. I think the MBK's, as they come stock, are almost unwearable because of the lack of lume. I don't have a lot of time to try to get my project going, as far as trying to pick up some genuine parts before it's likely to get shipped off for the lug holes and the dial luming. I'm always curious about what went into someone's rationale when they were selecting which parts to go genuine with, in terms of what parts they felt have the most significant impact on the overall appearance of the watch. Thanks for a great review and some inspiration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted November 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 8, 2007 I was surprised when you said you preferred the flat-top T39 to the superdome. If you had the option of both crystals for the DRSD, would you stay with the superdome for accuracy? Or would you go with the superdome, which is still viable, and may be your preferred crystal? I am not sure I did read it well, but you must mean "would you go for the flat", right ? The Double Red needs a SuperDome for accurancy reasons. I would not put a Flat on it, nor would I for the Single Red of course. It may not be as desirable in the gen world, in terms of the condition of the watch for sale, but in replicas, showing conditions of having been worn, the case rounded a bit, some effects of having been polished over time, are all desirabe ways to create the passage of time effect. The aged appearance in a vintage rollie usually comes from the dial, and then moves outward, but the dial is primary. I think the MBK's, as they come stock, are almost unwearable because of the lack of lume. Well, MM told me to be rude with the watches ... the idea being "they are old". I agree with that. I will be rude. Look at Nanuq's watches, aren't they among the most desirable out there? How the hell would it possible to wear a 40 year old watch with no signs of wear, no deep scratches in the crystal? A 100$ daily worn Swatch is looking vintage after less than a month... I don't have a lot of time to try to get my project going, as far as trying to pick up some genuine parts before it's likely to get shipped off for the lug holes and the dial luming. I'm always curious about what went into someone's rationale when they were selecting which parts to go genuine with, in terms of what parts they felt have the most significant impact on the overall appearance of the watch. Well, I am that crazy that I could go for a full genuine parts for this trilogy. But I was stopped by reality: I ordered two genuine super domes and none showed up. Yup, none. That was quite a budget believe me. I cut a deal with the seller and he sent me "one more (he said)" ...we thus cut the costs of the previous 2 loss 50/50. But, at the end, that "spare" genuine super dome costs me a fortune (pls don't ask how much! ). That is why the DR has a Clark and not a genuine. See what I mean? On a side note, I have been lucky to trade a great GMT II lately: it has a genuine dial and insert. Take my word, it looks completely different from whatever GMT II rep is out there. So, some parts are making it all. Anyway, I consider this Trilogy as an ongoing project and as the heart of my hobby. As there is absolutely no chance I could buy one of these anywhere, why not get them as close as possible for the final budget of a genuine modern SeaDweller? Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crystalcranium Posted November 9, 2007 Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 My God...you are obsessed, insane, OCD, crazy....and your watches show it...they are incredible. I'm just not into vintagizing my precious MBW GW. Can't bear to scratch it up however routine wear and tear has resulted in the loss of the replica pearl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted November 9, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2007 My God...you are obsessed, insane, OCD, crazy....and your watches show it...they are incredible. I'm just not into vintagizing my precious MBW GW. Can't bear to scratch it up however routine wear and tear has resulted in the loss of the replica pearl. I think your are right But as said, not one genuine version of these could be found for the price of my modest trilogy Even if I finish the project with almost everything genuine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingkitesurf Posted November 10, 2007 Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Stephane, Great collection, well informed on the topic. Compliments. As I have been building sort of a same collection and even fitting genuine 1570 movements in these babies... one thing that makes a huge difference is to fit other hands. Clarks carries the 'significantly fatter hands' for ETA (Tudor) and 1570 as well. It makes the watch more balanced and stand absulutely out in MBW rep world. Big thumbs up for your taste! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted November 10, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 10, 2007 Thank you very much KKS. You seem to be a level further than I am I'm still learning I will explore the hands soon...but doubt I would go for genuine movements though. Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perry563 Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 I installed a Clarke superdome on my MBW GWSD. At the time I was told that there was a transitional model back in the late 70's that had the superdome. Is this true or is my watch now totally wrong? Also my GWSD has hollow center links and the correct back. Did I recieve an updated model? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephane Posted April 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 Hi Perry, If you have the correct case back, then it's the updated indeed, which is cool. On the topic of what is accurate as crystal, there are so many variations that almost everything is accurate. I was very very nervous to get the absolute correct combo in terms of parts a year ago. But members here came with so many examples of the Rolex variations, specialy in vintage Rolies, that I am happy now. A flat or a dome is totaly possible with a GW dial...the white dial might have replaced a double red back then. Same for case back by the way. But I wanted the new generation case back on my great white so it is different from my SR and DR. I think yours is thus perfectly ok Cheers Stephane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
perry563 Posted April 2, 2008 Report Share Posted April 2, 2008 I have a 1680 with a Clarke flat top crystal and as I mentioned my GWSD with a superdome. I would like a DRSD to "complete" my vintage collection. However now that I installed a superdome on my GW I feel that the DRSD will be too similar looking as compared with my GW since to be correct it should also have a superdome. I assume that a DRSD with a flat T39 would not in any way be accurate? With the great white having a superdome it is at least plausable that some watches left the factory that way since the preceding model, the DRSD, had a superdome. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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