Too many things going wrong.

[rodwc]

From quite a few posts that I have been reading lately, far too many things are going wrong.

Not from the shipping and time frame, when ordered and received,etc. but from the quality of what has been ordered.

Every dealer can make mistakes, and rectify them, we are fortunate for that, but it is happening too often.

Sure they can, and most likely , be rectified by the dealers , but it shouldnt have to happen.

No, I , and we , dont live in a perfect world.

You buy a rep. , it may or may not function and work correctly, you are faced with sending it back, more expense.

There is nothing bigger than a come down like this!

When I read of Stephane s experience, that highlighted the situation.

An almost $300 watch , and he was so gutted with it , as soon as he laid eyes on it , that it was up for sale , at a fraction

of what he paid.

Complain to the dealer ( I dont know ).

Sorry, the bar has to be lifted, or STOP buying tpos.

[ryaku]

Too many guys are happy to play this game with these rules.

Nothin' is gonna change.

[rodwc]

Too many guys are happy to play this game with these rules.

Nothin' is gonna change.

Then they deserve what they get, and to my mind that is a, simply pathetic excuse for putting up with crap.

[ryaku]

Yes, absolutely, they deserve it.

But they don't care, obviously their purchasing power is high enough to buy replicas (many) at this inflated price with no regret.

[offshore]

Well,

A most instigative, and well put post, from a relative newcomer. (And a well read one I may add)

May I play devils advocate here?

Are these problems really just now emerging? Or have they always existed, and only now do some of our newer members feel empowered enough to speak out?

Are WE collectively NOT doing enough to educate our newer members, in the need to ASK, QUESTION, QUALIFY, what they actually will receive?

Are we, as a group, so infatuated with the minutiae of our purchases, that we have let the major deficiencies become almost of no consequence?

Is a lower price for an item the most compelling reason to select your provider?

And to follow on, What extra cost does one place on an items value, if they know they will receive an item from a seller who has actually handled and inspected the item, and further to this, actually carried out some form of QC?

And finally, do our newer members ever really find the time to really absorb all the combined knowledge of these places?

Won't elaborate yet... just be interested in others thoughts.

Offshore

[dluddy]

This has and always will be a Caveat emptor market. Buyers or users of Modding services need to do their homework.

Who was it who said "Choose you dealer.....then choose your watch"

There is a wealth of knowledge in and around this board. Search for reviews, etc. or ask a fellow supporter that has been here for a while before comitting your dollars to a dealer or modder.

[Francisco]

I am begining to buy reps. I have bought 4 reps from 3 dealers. 3 of them were defective. All the dealers made a mistake.

I am thnking of telling the whole story, just to show the newbies like me how is the situation.

PATIENTE!!

[flamemax]

I have bought a few reps as well... I have also banned some dealers in my personal list of dealers due to long delays in response times and or sending an email with 5 questions for example, only to have 2 of the questions answered.

I am still in my "dealer selection process" and will prolly give each one a try, once, and only the best will receive my repeat business.

I have a lot of business to bring to the table as I am an avid collector and THE watch and replica watch guru within my circle of friends and family.

I am open to delays and mistakes, what I am not open to is false expectations...

If I have been told that the piece I am ordering will be hand expected and when I receive it, it turns out that it wasn't - that's a big no-no in my book. Same goes for answers to questions and the time it takes to receive a reply to an email.

As for pricing, I am more than willing to pay an higher price (withini reason) to a dealer who will literally had inspect a purchase before sending it out.

Many have said...

"This is an underground business... so it works differently"

"It's high risk for the dealers, so they don't have to provide good customer service"

"Most of the dealers are from Asia, and their customer service philosophy is ... different"

I say...

"The truth is universal"

"A promise, is a promise, no matter what way you look at it"

TIP FOR DEALERS (It has been my experience that The Zigmeister makes good use of this)

Under-promise and always over-deliver

[Suchecracks]

Well as I believe thats the way it works. I dont expect QC like on a gen and if I want a perfect watch, I will visit my AD!

I dont thinks the watches are expensive either. Where do I geht a 300m waterproof, well timekeeping chronograph with a mechanical movement for as little 300 USD besides in the repworld?

Okay its pretty much the same price as for the russion "poljot" watches but they come with the same QC und reliability issues.

If you stick to common movements like the ETA or Valjaux every watchsmith can help you for little money - and most of them will surely do, as they are facing hard times with all the people going for fancy looking but cheap and quarzdriven "stylewatches".

My experiences arent good either:

Dealer 1: super Sea-Dweller

- really deep scratch (lot of material missing) in the bracelet - coplained - answer: "this is very minor flaw"

- took me hours of filing, sanding, buffing, polishing to get rid of it

Dealer 2: vintage submariner

-right and left crownguards not equal, thread crookedly attached to the case

->didnt complain as I was only heading for the dial and bracelet anyway - and discoverd the flaws later on when I wanted to use the case for another project

Dealer 3 (Homer): Omega SMP Chronograph

-nothing to complain - perfect watch indeed!

That makes it one out of three!

Still I am satisfied and would be buying again from all of the three - the products there are offering are unique - the only alternative is the AD.

As for me I use the reps for kind of "trail for he real thing".

So i found out, that I am not wearing a SD as too extrovert for my taste...that the SMP chrono is way too big for my wrist...I dont like the cyclops of the subs...

All three wathes where on my wishlist (as gen), I have tried all of them several time at the AD - but only the long time trial with a rep helped me to evaluate.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Suchecracks

[jfreeman420]

Are these problems really just now emerging? Or have they always existed, and only now do some of our newer members feel empowered enough to speak out?

Yes a very instigative post from a newb. How many watches have you bought, and how many didn't work? I have bought hundreds of fake watches. Yes HUNDREDS. Yes some have been defective. No I have never publicly whined. This is not wal-mart. It is a market of illicit goods.

If you want quality control and warranties for a good price go buy a Casio. These items we purchase are no more than a medium to display some highly coveted brand name on our wrist at a discount in an attempt to add some class to our persona's. Watches are no more than accessories and replica watches are a lie in themselves so don't come crying that you were lied to when you bought your fake watch or it didn't live up to the quality standards of the name printed on the dial. You think any one of the guys in chinatown would give you a replacement for a broken watch?

The only thing I can attribute to more people having problems with watches is that there are simply more people partaking in this hobby. 5 years ago there was a club with a couple hundred people. Now we are in the tens of thousands. More volume means more problems. Simple and plain.

You take a certain number of risks with a purchase like this. If you aren't willing to gamble, get out of the casino.....

[Victoria]

Yes a very instigative post from a newb. How many watches have you bought, and how many didn't work? I have bought hundreds of fake watches. Yes HUNDREDS. Yes some have been defective. No I have never publicly whined. This is not wal-mart. It is a market of illicit goods.

I'm afraid I agree 100% with Jfreeman.

I am now onto 81 watches (counting three watches still to receive) since June. I have yet to encounter one merchant who didn't send me an item that didn't have any problem. NOT ONE. EDIT: Not that all the watches had problems. I meant about the individual collector.

Ironically, the only flawless ones I have received are from member trades.

So whilst rodwc is bang on in his analysis, what can we do when we boycott collectors? Who do we go to?

One collector even told me the sales from the forum members are as nothing compared to his outside customers. (A strapmaker told me the same, BTW).

Recently someone posted that the infamous Paul/Abay/Womart was posting pics of his brand-new pool, which he got despite the negative notices on RWG. In fact, he was pointing it out with glee as if to say, I don't need you people to make money.

My point is simple: of course, complain. Of course, demand rectification. Of course, demand good after-purchase service.

But our demands need to tempered with common sense, patience, and less hubris about what we mean to these lot of men and women half-way around the world.

[mezzanine]

I seem to have made a lot of mistakes, recently, and I've been around long enough now that I don't have any excuses. Currently, it looks like I might be out $1000 on two separate watch deals that look like I may have been scammed on. Not only that, but I had to take a loss on a watch I received from a dealer that hadn't been quality controlled like had been specifically requested about a week ago. The watch I bought before that, a MBW DRSD, came to me with the dial tilted, which I'm going to have to get fixed now before I can sell.

Sometimes it's not really anyone's fault, but I'm shocked at some of the stuff people will leave out of their listings on the for sale forums-

[tmg]

Have to agree with JFreeman too, this is contraband.

With that said, plenty of the dealers here stand behind what they sell. Choose wisely.

[flamemax]

I understand the point you people are making about this being "underground" and "contraband"..

The point I tried to make was the following...

If I am promised a hand inspected, QC'd watch, that is what I will expect.

If the watch arrives and it was obviouslt NOT inspected, that will peeve me off, period.

If I am told ahead of time that the watch is "not exactly the one in the picture" and "will not be hand inspected" :Read, Dropshipped, then I will prepare myself to expect just about anything... even a Micky Mouse timex.

It all boils down to expectations... not who is right or wrong...

If I am promised X, I will expect X..

If after being promised X, and receiving Y, I will feel that I was lied to and the dealer in question will loose a great deal of credibility in my eyes.

Credibility is KEY!

So yes this is contraband, that does not give dealers a "carte blanche" to lie.

...and please do not get me wrong.. I am not saying all dealers are liers, not am I saying all dealers are honest...

I'm just saying they should always deliver what they promised, whatever the promise may be.

When dealing with dealers, trust is the only thing a rep watch consumer has to base his or herself on.

[Victoria]

When dealing with dealers, trust is the only thing a rep watch consumer has to base his or herself on.

I find that very correct, Flamemax.

Where we differ is expectations. You have them before you purchase. I do too, but mostly, I have them after I purchase a watch -- if the collector will stand behind his product or not.

It seems RWG talks about this topic more than other fora, and that's a great thing, IMHO.

But here is my reply with my own philosophy about the matter in that infamous "Joshua/Andrew" thread by Chronus some time ago. It went on to 10 pages.

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?s=&amp...st&p=305847

Since not everyone will click, here is the gist:

"Maybe I was born cynical, but I automatically expect people in business to fudge, and yes, sometimes to lie. Armed with that knowledge, I go in search not of the honest broker, but of the professional one."

[AMK000]

Ironically, the only flawless ones I have received are from member trades.

....... you are not the only one saying this.

Lately I am only buying watches from Collectors that do not dropshipp or from other members here.

That has brought the % of defective waches I received down by 70% (before it used to be 2 out of 4, now is 1 in every 5 or 6).

Is the lack of any QC and most of all the "Dropshipping" practice that "is doing sex" ( :cc_chinese: ) to the watches we receive.

[Emmzy]

To avoid most of these problems it's simple........don't buy from dropshippers. True some 'inspected' watches fall through the trap, but not many.

We should all by now understand who inspects first. The merchandise costs a little more but it buys peace of mind.

There is one collector here who offers a dual service, inspected at one price and dropshipped at another. There is another who will photograph the watch before despach. Another notorious dealer 'always delivers!'

Is this too difficult to understand?

I've made mistakes in the past and had to return watches at my cost, I've received the wrong watch and I've bought crap. I don't do that any more.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Emmzy

[ryyannon]

Who was it who said "Choose you dealer.....then choose your watch"

Amos.

Or was it Andy...?

[FxrAndy]

Not me, but a very usefull phrase indeed, i have used a few of the collectors we have here and have been happy with the service i have had from all but now limit my suppliers to just a couple for reasons of honesty and location.

[jfreeman420]

If I am promised a hand inspected, QC'd watch, that is what I will expect.

If the watch arrives and it was obviouslt NOT inspected, that will peeve me off, period.

I'll bet you are one of those people that buys extended warranties on all your electronics also. IMO, QC is as useless as [censored] on a bull. Most probelems with watches occur one to two weeks after you recieve them. They may work fine from the dealer, but afterwards anything can happen.

BTW, extended warranties are BS as well. They cover little or nothing. Waste of money as is QC from a dealer.

[offshore]

@jf,

Whilst I share your cynicism of anything that may resemble QC from a "factory", which really precludes any real confidence in the building of a movement, surely this gives genuine ETA assembled movements a distinct edge, as they have been subject to a level of real QC?

Also I beleive I would feel a damn sight more secure in knowing my supplier was actually visually inspecting the watch for readily known or sighted defects, timing said item, and auto running it for a given period of time.

No, the above will not remove the risk of a fault developing either during shipping, or in the items early life, but it sure as hell must reduce the risks, compared to an item, drop shipped from someones basement, who in reality, is only being paid peanuts compared to the final price we pay!

I know which route I would choose, if I ever needed to buy another rep, and it wouldn't be for a drop shipped item, or one fitted with a suspect movement.

See my siggy!

Offshore

[TeeJay]

This has and always will be a Caveat emptor market. Buyers or users of Modding services need to do their homework.

Who was it who said "Choose you dealer.....then choose your watch"

There is a wealth of knowledge in and around this board. Search for reviews, etc. or ask a fellow supporter that has been here for a while before comitting your dollars to a dealer or modder.

On RWG, you don't choose Dealer, Dealer chooses you...

As you say though, the information is all here, all one need do is read reviews and ask questions before comitting to a course of action

[jdavis]

I have never expected perfection when ordering a replica from any of the collectors. I keep in mind that these "novelty" items don't carry the same guarantee of quality as the genuine articles do. This hobby has encouraged me to learn a bit of basic watch knowledge in order to keep my collection in proper working order. In fact, I have gained much pleasure and a degree skill from reading the repair and modification sections of the forum and applying that knowledge. To me, this is simply a part of the replica hobby . I do not mean that I like to receive watches with major problems. No one should be willing to accept a watch that is DOA or that dies shortly there after. I have only returned one watch and it was for a total failure of the mechanism. It is not an experience that I would care to repeat. No matter how good your collector is, expect that there is always a possibility of problems. I believe that with polite communication, a satisfactory resolution will be reached. However, I should note that my tolerance for small flaws may be greater than some other members. Establish a good rapport with your dealer, use polite communication, show appreciation for the job that he/she does for you and you will be rewarded.

[lanikai]

to say that I will never receive a defective "replication" would be total denial on my part....

will they keep accurate time out of the box.. a few maybe.. the movements are good but 99% would need "proper" servicing..

To service a eta 7750 movement would cost around 750 usd at the retail level,..... and even then I am not sure I would be getting value added service, so i choose to send them to Canada for quality added service... and with the fact that the factory workers in the country of origin are less than "professional" it's amazing that some of the watches keep time at all..

so I have to ask myself ..."would I be able to purchase this Rep. in a store that guarantees quality?" NO.... the price I pay for the rep may only be the tip of the iceberg...

I look at these imitations more as art form than instruments that will never give me problems .. it is a costly hobby, be it replication or genuine... so at times I have a great canvas to be a starting point with.

so, i have choosen my collector for his after purchase service as well as all the other choices I make... now if I recieve a rep that is doa or has major quality issues he will ship another one out to me ASAP before I return the bad one,.

For example, the IWC Aquatimer I got was defective.. I still have it, as the collector has stated that it will be all right to ship it out after the xmas lines at the post office mellow out.. and the replacement arrived 4 day's after recieving the first..

I am not going to change how they do business across the world but I do have "choices" as far as how that way of doing business is handled after the purchase...I can only speak for myself and it's up to the new members to make thier own choices given the info on this forum... a new member asked if he should get the Blackbird .. I pointed out the flaws and the fact that it was not a "Super Rep",.. he chose to get it.. "his choice" and he is happy .. win, win.. i also pointed out the pitfalls of reps. that way it was his' choice, knowing full well what kind of hobby this is.