Why RWI has removed Josh and Andrew as dealers

[omni]

JUST A SIMPLE HISTORY LESSON:

A few oldtimers that have been in this for a long time will remember that the biggest volume dealer at one time was the discount seller Paul aka Womart. Early big volume drop shipper that a lot of people swore by and came to defend earnestly as they do Josh/Andrew today. It was the first "trusted" volume dealer within the rep. forums as he had a real working website while most of the other trusted dealers at that time communicated through PM ordering through the forums. I hear echoes of the past that could be a parrot speaking, pro defending "great customer service" & con complaining "overpricing" "incorrect" watches from the descriptions.

This will sort itself out and all the threads and energy that are expended on the subject will have no immediate effect but it does effect eventually. Paul conducted his/her business from stellar to crappy when Paul got too complacent, arrogant and comfortable in the top dog status, customer service got sketchy and so did the watches which soon didn't deserve the prices. Guess what, other dealers came in to happily replace, such as guys like Josh & Andrew with a different better mousetrap for getting the clients. Word of mouth and here they are, the darlings of the rep. forum(s). Guess what, the same thing will happen as the fallout will filter down and some other dealer will come to replace them and come out on top as the Jandrew thinks they have it made at the moment, same as Paul did. The public consumer is so fickle, loyalty is non-existent.

What will happen is even though a dealer is banned on one forum, there are currently enough forums to support them on another. But, in the end, it does hurt their bottom line as enough bad press, like politics, can effect the popularity because it always seems to snowball up then down for the bigger volume dealers (not the small ones).

Personally, never ordered from Joshua, seems to have great press. Andrew is another matter, the very first few watches he offered on RWG I caught him in a lie "that he had seen the genuine in an AD and the rep he was selling was correct." This was right out of the gate lying from the guy so I never ever wanted to deal with him and never did.

[josevancouver]

Price-fixing is not just something that happens with Chinese imitation-watch dealers - it happens all over. Ever wonder if gas stations nearby agree on a price to gouge customers with? Having said that, it's ridiculous and the consumer loses out whether it's filling up your car with price-fixed gas or watches.

I've been a customer of Andrew's and Josh's and have received (for the most part) good service and quality products (especially Josh). I don't shop exclusively with them - I've been a customer or many other dealers as well. I think it's healthy to have a number of dealers out there to compete and drive prices down. Once again, the biggest message we can all send the dealers/factories out there is to refuse to pay for products which are ridiculously over-priced. It's all about supply and demand. If the demand for over-priced products is low, trust me - the factories/dealer will lower the prices.

Of course I would never defend 'price fixing'- however, it is a fact of life in any business involving merchandise- the manufactures always dictate the highest and lowest prices, and the sellers are always held to a certain level of sales.

All of the items we purchase through our associations on this board all come from a very limited number of actual manufacturers, in spite of claims that 'my copy is special because it is lubricated with REAL goat semen-' or other ridiculous claim. As such, if one dealer were to suddenly begin to drastically undersell others, it would hurt the business of the others, ultimately driving some out of the business (and lets face it, we are not an easy lot- anybody heard from Eddie lately??)

I have been a customer of Andrews for some time, and have been very happy with the transactions. I accept the price fixing which happens as a natural consequence of the business. In a grey/black market endeavor such as this, that we are offered any level of customer service is a miracle, and if the prices are a little higher- so be it.

You can throw them off the board, but there is nothing new about this type of practice, and it will continue whether they are on RWI or not- and still get plenty of business.

-O

BTW- Andrew fixed my ROO in 5 days without a hitch. Try getting that from an AD.

[client9]

And whose to call your post a "literary work of high intelligence",.. are you claiming this for yourself ??... you seem to be telling us exactly how things are going down... what you said happened,.. like it's "point of FACT" can you show any insight into how you garnered this brilliant piece of intelligence.. Humint ?? what ??

Do you have any "real Insight" into how Asian "organizations" work..?? the Hierarchy involved.. do you have any "on the job" experience... How does the Top of the food chain work ?? have you seen it in action ??

Lanikai, I've been complimented on my writing abilities before, but I've never had my work called "a literary work of high intelligence" before. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

I will admit, I've never been to a meeting of replica dealers, but that does not matter. It doesn't take a genius to put together what is going on behind the scenes with the facts that are given. This is what my post said:

1. Andrew is a major league dealer who makes a lot of money (fact)

2. Because he is a major dealer, he must have close connections to manufacturers (fact)

3. These connections allow him to threaten other 'trusted dealers' with access to watches (fact, it's the reason he was banned)

4. Price fixing leads to higher prices for forum members (fact)

Is this line of reasoning really that outrageous, Lanikai? Do you really need a documentary and photographs to accept this? Is it worth insulting me over?

[lanikai]

Lanikai, I've been complimented on my writing abilities before, but I've never had my work called "a literary work of high intelligence" before. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

I will admit, I've never been to a meeting of replica dealers, but that does not matter. It doesn't take a genius to put together what is going on behind the scenes with the facts that are given. This is what my post said:

1. Andrew is a major league dealer who makes a lot of money (fact)

2. Because he is a major dealer, he must have close connections to manufacturers (fact)

3. These connections allow him to threaten other 'trusted dealers' with access to watches (fact, it's the reason he was banned)

4. Price fixing leads to higher prices for forum members (fact)

Is this line of reasoning really that outrageous, Lanikai? Do you really need a documentary and photographs to accept this? Is it worth insulting me over?

Obviously my statements are going "Over Your Head" So it seems senseless to beat a dead horse..because for the third and last time.. my post was a side bar to the "pricing fix" issue.. try looking to the message instead of the messenger

[BROM]

Quick question just to make I'm following ok

Are these products regulated by any sort of government?

If not any action a dealer may take to protect the prices he charges his costumers is absolutely ok.

If said dealer has enough pull with a manufacturer to be able to influence who the manufacturer supplies his product to, he has earned that position so he can use it at any time he pleases.

[By-Tor]

We think it's important to keep any discussions open, even the "unpleasant" and delicate topics. But...

if this thread degenerates into a pissing contest, we'll close it. When a thread starts moving to the wrong direction, it can make friends turn to enemies, and will hurt the community and its spirit. It's our job to watch that this doesn't happen.

So...

Please keep it civil! No personal attacks, and no bashing of other forums! We have a great respect to RepGeeks and we constantly co-operate with both RG and RWI (mainly to protect the members from scammers). This forum co-operation benefits everyone and good relationship between all forums is something that I'm very happy about... and it's also something that we all should aim for! You have to understand that the different admin teams have different approach of how to handle certain things. Things are not black and white, there's also shades of grey.

Thanks guys.

[Dani]

Like Dani said, it was a no-brainer that within minutes of this threat, every single member who had ever bought a watch from the cartel and got it delivered without problems would come to their defense. And I especially love it when members with less than 50 posts and less than six months on their membership come telling us what this forum is all about. I have bought from Andrew too, got my merchandise and had a pleasant shopping experience. So far so good.

But you people need to understand that this is illegal merchandise we're dealing with and because of that, no one is going to help you in case of trouble but the likes of RWG, RWI etc. The forums are your last and only line of defense, making sure that you are not being completely ripped off. A lot of you have come here after paying a fortune for some "Super, Swiss grade AAA+" sub that was a real POS. Here, members help other members and the admin helps the members and we all help one another not go get ripped off. That includes to take action - even against dealers - if they break the rules (of what is decent business behavior). In the rep world, no government antitrust agency is going to come to the rescue. The only way to say "No, we don't want this!" with some chance for success is the combined force of the members of the rep forums. Since the Darkside was even linked to on the cartel websites, I am sure that admin over there did not shoot from the hip in this issue. They thought long and hard before taking this step but the rep forum where not created by dealers as a sales platform but by rep and watch enthusiasts in a effort to share knowledge and provide guidance in an illegal environment.

You say it so good

Considering Josh a friend is a bit like thinking that stripper in front of you actually likes you.

I have heard from many reliable sources close to those guys that we are a source of income to them and they do not speak to highly of people on the forums.

I belive this to be very true, its biz nothing more.

Having a good experience and transactions with Josh and Andrew is completely irrelevant with the issue.

I always had extremely great transactions with both of them (especially Josh) but I believe the choice that was made was the right one for the general good.

A bold move, especially from RWI who supported them for a long time, and I am 1000% that the proof is there and it is an unacceptable behaviour.

Again the vets talk the good talk.

You guys must understand its all about money for the factorys and dealers.

If you go down to GZ and hand over 100k$ to this guys they will look at you as a god and i em sure thats what the cartel has done given them a good amounts of deals that benifit the factory owners..Josh&Andrew have done something smart in terms of getting the edge on other dealers..But as all such things it can bite them in ass if the boards all ban them..

You see i think we are the large % of the high end replica market

But the low end reps we are the small %

[mars08]

QUOTE:

"BTW- Andrew fixed my ROO in 5 days without a hitch. Try getting that from an AD."

Yet I got a dropshipped SMP GMT from him with the wrong clasp and has done bugger all to make it right. And I expect he won't.

Does that still leave him in the elite class?

[jfreeman420]

This news doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is that people still believe that these boards are such a small part of these dealers' businesses. They all claim to be super dealers and our business means nothing to them.

This proves that no matter what anyone says we are a huge part of these dealers' business and they are afraid of losing their profits. We need to put our feet down and let them know we wont put up with this BS.

[pamlover]

guys, i am more active on rep geek then any other forum, because i like their calm blue background... lol.. just kidding.. what has not been mentioned here is that the dollar got week compared to euro and all other asian and european currency, so dealers have to adjust their prices as well.. so who are you prefered dealers guys list them in order of how you rank them..

[freddy333]

Dude, WHAT THE HELL MAN? They PRESSURED other dealers and THREATENED them to raise prices. What more do you want?? If Andrew starts molesting children are you ALSO gonna say "well, he has always been this nice guy and he was always nice to me and he helped me building my shed, so I hope this issue will be adressed and resolved. He's a nice guy!!1111!!!"

Its people like YOU who just WANT to get fcuked over!

Slay - I think you missed this line in my quote.......

Price-fixing & strong-arm tactics have no place on a site that provides collectors with a gene pool consisting of 13,000+ always-hungry buyers.

But I am a pragmatist. Our lovely little hobby is based on an illegal activity -- the manufacture & sale of contraband goods. The people who execute the supply side of that activity do not generally operate within a framework of accepted 'good business practices', especially in China, where coercion & payoffs tend to be the rule rather than the exception. As others have said, the story is always the same -- another dealer caught employing questionable business practices, only the names change. I am not excusing it (it is wrong), but I have been around long enough to accept the reality of something that is not going to change.

This is just deja vu all over again.

[normanduke]

Ditto By-Tor.

Someone looking for a rep is looking for a Rolex. I've been reading these forums for a year and I myself have only recently discovered IWC.

My own take on this is : Josh and Andrew saying that they buy the originals and make a deal with the " maker " to reproduce it is pure BS. I have long been gone from the machine-tool industry and it has been long gone from the US, but there are a lot more stages in making a watch than blythely setting up a CNC machine. Some articles involving bas-relief must be cast. Some are drop-forged, such as watch heads. Plastic parts are injection molded. All of these parts are engineered first then drawn in blueprint. A computer will NOT make a perfect copy of a part. It will produce a low end rep.

It is my very strong FEELING, I can not prove this, that our high end reps are STOLEN ORIGINALS in one way or another due to outsourcing to China where because of lack of proper supervision they go astray, that is, out the back door.

It would be lunacy to set up a factory to reproduce, say an Ingenieur for a paltrey $300.

Think about it. How many people are combing the net for a phony Ingenieur ?

Why are the simple Rolex so frustratingly inaccurate ? Because they are still made in Switzerland.

[b16a2]

Sure, they're going to come right out and admit it. I did always wonder why they were the only "endorsed" forum:

Is that you Jos? Kidding aside, you can't really mean to say that we shouldn't speculate about something because that might confuse the unwashed masses.

RWI was there, but it was removed after they were banned...understandably so.

And what i am saying is that we have proof to some extent of what J and A did. We have no proof that Repgeek is funded by J and A, and I have been assured that they are not.

So yes, we shouldn't fire speculated mess towards RG. If we have proof that they are funded, that they are protecting J and A more so than other dealers, then yes by all means we should flame them because this would have an adverse affect on it's member.

This is not the case, so therefore speculating that RG is somehow in bed with J and A is just that.....speculation......just like the Iraq war, speculation leads to a big mess and broken relations.

Back on topic....It makes me wonder how many of these types of threads are going to appear before the loyal see that maybe these two dealers don't have our best interests at heart. Granted the proof isn't conclusive, but every one of these little white lie threads/shady actions threads always seem to appear in relation to these two dealers.

[TeeJay]

guys, i am more active on rep geek then any other forum, because i like their calm blue background... lol.. just kidding.. what has not been mentioned here is that the dollar got week compared to euro and all other asian and european currency, so dealers have to adjust their prices as well.. so who are you prefered dealers guys list them in order of how you rank them..

An interesting point, but totally irrelevent to what has happened. Allow me to illustrate:

There's quite a difference between adjusting one's own prices to balance a weak dollar, and threatening other dealers to raise their prices, or they will lose their supply from the factories.

Jandrew did the latter: Threatening other dealers to raise prices or lose their factory supply.

Now, that may well be how such businesses operate, but, these forums are here to protect the buyers. If dealers are shown to have unreasonable behaviour in one area of their business, it is not a stretch of the imagination that they will have unreasonable behaviour in other areas of their business. This has been proven over and over again with the Little White Lies threads. At the end of the day, Josh and Andrew are liars and manipulators, and can only be trusted to behave thus.

If people want to continue to buy from them, then that is their personal choice and right to do so. But. Personally, I feel the way they have behaved (little white lies) has been tollerated long enough, and personally, would consider this latest revelation to be 'the straw that broke the camel's back', and ban them from the forums, as quite simply, they are not trustworthy, and, it will not be long before their behaviour then turns on their clients.

As has been noted above, Andrew couldn't be bothered to even attempt to defend himself. I think that says everything there is to say about how much he actually cares about his reputation among forum buyers.

Ditto By-Tor.

Someone looking for a rep is looking for a Rolex. I've been reading these forums for a year and I myself have only recently discovered IWC.

My own take on this is : Josh and Andrew saying that they buy the originals and make a deal with the " maker " to reproduce it is pure BS. I have long been gone from the machine-tool industry and it has been long gone from the US, but there are a lot more stages in making a watch than blythely setting up a CNC machine. Some articles involving bas-relief must be cast. Some are drop-forged, such as watch heads. Plastic parts are injection molded. All of these parts are engineered first then drawn in blueprint. A computer will NOT make a perfect copy of a part. It will produce a low end rep.

It is my very strong FEELING, I can not prove this, that our high end reps are STOLEN ORIGINALS in one way or another due to outsourcing to China where because of lack of proper supervision they go astray, that is, out the back door.

It would be lunacy to set up a factory to reproduce, say an Ingenieur for a paltrey $300.

Think about it. How many people are combing the net for a phony Ingenieur ?

Why are the simple Rolex so frustratingly inaccurate ? Because they are still made in Switzerland.

I think that's a very interesting, and very likely possibility (especially with the high end reps) that, even if the watches are not being stolen as a complete piece, the parts themselves could certainly be making their way out of the factory's back door, to then be assembled in the 'back room factories' which we know operate.

Back on topic....It makes me wonder how many of these types of threads are going to appear before the loyal see that maybe these two dealers don't have our best interests at heart. Granted the proof isn't conclusive, but every one of these little white lie threads/shady actions threads always seem to appear in relation to these two dealers.

Absolutely spot on. Funny how these threads are always about them, isn't it

[b16a2]

It is, and until some action is taken it will just keep going, it's cyclical. I can guarantee that near the end of October/November time we will be here discussing the same out thing. Same sh!t, different day

[Pugwash]

Quick question just to make I'm following ok

Are these products regulated by any sort of government?

No, just organised crime.

[TeeJay]

It is, and until some action is taken it will just keep going, it's cyclical. I can guarantee that near the end of October/November time we will be here discussing the same out thing. Same sh!t, different day

Absolutely. What with all this talk of inter-forum relations, I think it's time for the forums to actually act upon them, and act as the one community, which we all are. RWI have drawn the line in the sand. They've stood up and said "No, not on our watch..." (no pun intended) It's time for the other forums to now back their decision, with identical sanctions.

I feel like it's the eve of war

What we need, is:

Our Community... __________________________ The Cartel...

[b16a2]

haha I see you're creating the movement TeeJay.

I think the main problem with going forward and banning them (looking from the otherside of the fence now) is that J and A have been around for a long time with a good history of sales and service. The latest event perhaps lacks that crucial piece of evidence (ie it isn't entirely conclusive) to show to the J and A loyals that they are nothing more than hot air. They offer a great service yes, but I feel that all of these continuing incidents are detrimental to us as a community.

[Pugwash]

[FxrAndy]

I see both Jay and A reading this thread would the care to answer the alegations.

[Dani]

Speak up dealers.

[gianton]

:D

Speak up dealers.

[TeeJay]

haha I see you're creating the movement TeeJay.

I'm just calling it as I see it, and how I feel the community should proceed. Afterall, there is all this talk of inter-forum co-operation, I just think it would be nice, in times like this, for it to be acted upon unilaterally Of course, that's just my own feeling on the matter...

I think the main problem with going forward and banning them (looking from the otherside of the fence now) is that J and A have been around for a long time with a good history of sales and service. The latest event perhaps lacks that crucial piece of evidence (ie it isn't entirely conclusive) to show to the J and A loyals that they are nothing more than hot air. They offer a great service yes, but I feel that all of these continuing incidents are detrimental to us as a community.

I know what you mean, but, that said, there was evidence of the lies about the B&R movements, and their supporters still tried to justify things for them. I'm not saying people shouldn't buy from them anymore, as that's a person's own choice. What I do feel, is that as one forum has taken steps over a serious reason, it would be good manners and solidarity for the other forums to impose likewise sanctions

[Pugwash]

I suspect their response will be to insult a few members (retracted shortly after because they 'were joking') then claim stupidity and then say how they're the victims of their own success and how they don't lie or dropship.

No change there.

Dun be pugs.

...

The problem is that as dealers, Josh and Andrew are the ideal recommendation for a first time buyer. Price-fixing and white-lying aside, they have decent service and a good selection of watches. It would be so easy to just point everyone to their sites if we didn't feel dirty and used every time we did.

[FxrAndy]

After the LWL thread a lot of members made a choice to use other sources for there reps, it is time again for people to make a decision baced on morals and how we see business to be conducted,

You know i love "Muller milch" but because of their business practices i dont buy it. Make your choices