Francisco Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Hi: I decided to buy a Daytona, given that the new movement was rated as 29j improved version. The watch arrived today and I decided to analyze it. I bought it from Joshua (Perfect Clones) This is the watch I have received. In the pictures, NEW is the supposed improved 29j mechanism, and OLD is a Daytona that I applied the graphite technique on 26 February 2008. I took then pictures of the process, and now I have taken very similar pictures to help the comparison. The movement is removed from the case. And hands and dial are removed. Follows the first comparison. As seen on next picture, the transfer system is based on gears rotating on a plate, fastened with pins (green arrow) with no jewels. This is the same transfer system employed on the old model. There is an improvement shown by the red arrow. This improvement consists of reducing the contact surface on the gear employing “skeleton” gears instead of “solid” gears. After removing 3 screws, the top plate is removed. Follows pictures for each side of this plate. Next picture is top face. As shown, there are 3 jewels in the top plate. However, these jewels were present in the old model. These jewels are located in the seconds, minute and hour outputs of the watch. Therefore, no improvement here. The bottom face (next picture, red arrow) shows how some surface of the plate has been hollowed out. The objective is to reduce friction against the silver gear shown later (green arrow). This is one of the improvements, however, no more jewels are found here. Next picture shows the silver gear (green arrow). This gear is rotating on the surface of the plate and, unfortunately, belongs to the seconds transfer. Therefore, it is always rotating. The only improvement for this gear was commented in the previous image. No new jewels. As seen in next picture, the main improvement consists of reducing the contact surface of the gears employing skeleton gears, instead of solid ones. In next picture the gears for seconds and minutes outputs are removed. The two red arrows shown that the minutes output has a jewel and no jewel for the hours. However, this was the previous configuration. Nothing new, no new jewels. Now the seconds output gear is removed, the gear that is always running. Red arrow shows that there is not a new jewel. And a jewel here is much needed. After removing 3 screws and removing the second plate the A77500 mechanism is visible. Nothing new here. Two pictures follow for the second plate that we have just removed. The only difference, as commented before, is the use of skeleton gears. No new jewels. Follows top face. Follows bottom face. CONCLUSIONS. There are no more jewels in this mechanism. The improvement consists mainly in employing skeleton gears to reduce the rotating contact surface. The transfer for minutes is better designed that the seconds transfer. The seconds are always running and the design is still very problematic. Although there are improvements… definitively this is not a long life mechanism. Thanks for reading, Francisco. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toadtorrent Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Francisco...let me be the first to say THANK YOU for this very thorough, and clear breakdown of where there could have been improvements, and why the movement while making some improvement with the skeleton gears, still has similar shortcomings as the old one. I'm guessing, they didn't actually make the skeleton gears for reducing surface area and resultant accumulative friction...but did so to save on metal and cost. Again...thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namor Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thank you for this informative review Francisco ! Well written and documented with pictures - very clear and understandable. Unfortunately we have found another product on the market which is described/advertised with lies... So one has always to be cautious when new movements appear... Very sad indeed since we are (as a big community) fighting for better quality and transparency in advertising for years now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks very much, Francisco. I would make one comment: The skeleton gears probably do not have any effect on the friction. This is because the gears only contact the plates at two points - the center pivot, and the outer edge. The old gears were already recessed, so the friction areas are about the same. The skeleton gears do reduce the overall drive train weight, and consequently, the amount of work that the movement must do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I take that last comment back.... It looks like the new movement has raised rings on the plate, with make contact with the spokes of the gears, and not the outer edge. This would significantly reduce the metal-to-metal contact area, and the overall drag. It will however, probably lead to more wear on the gears and plates. Jewels are a much better answer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thank so much for your review and effort to make this clear for our comunity. This Topic need to be pinned Thanks again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks very much, Francisco. I would make one comment: The skeleton gears probably do not have any effect on the friction. This is because the gears only contact the plates at two points - the center pivot, and the outer edge. The old gears were already recessed, so the friction areas are about the same. The skeleton gears do reduce the overall drive train weight, and consequently, the amount of work that the movement must do. I do not agree. I have just taken this picture from an old broken Portuguese. This is the face / surface that was rotating on the plate. it is flat: Francisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bklm1234 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 thanks so much francisco. great info and easy read. yes, this should be pinned or sticky'd. -bk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mardo Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Great review, I can even sort of understand what is going on now.......sort of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shundi Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks for the review! I seriously, seriously hope they fix this movement some day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Great stuff, thanks very much indeed! Not only should this be pinned, but emailed to all the dealers listing this "new" Daytona, as clearly it is BS on their part..... Thanks again Francisco, you have saved me wasting $250 or so..... Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
okabum Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 RAIDERS OF THE LOST JEWELS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks for taking the time to, not only post this review, but also the work which went into it, the dismantling of the movement, which is not exactly a quick endeavor. Interesting results and findings, and a very interesting read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest avitt Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I do not agree. I have just taken this picture from an old broken Portuguese. This is the face / surface that was rotating on the plate. it is flat: I was just basing my comment on your review pictures, and on the couple of Portuguese Chronos that I've worked on...Where the gears were very obviously not flat. I guess that there are multiple variations of this movement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Maybe you should send it back and ask for one of these instead? http://www.tt88time.com/index.php?main_pag...word=ROLDYT0052 It could be that the one you received is old stock, and the two new dial versions may have the updated movement? Or as we all think, it is most probably BS from the factories/dealers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I was just basing my comment on your review pictures, and on the couple of Portuguese Chronos that I've worked on...Where the gears were very obviously not flat. I guess that there are multiple variations of this movement. Yes, no problem. The problem is that I bought a 29j improved mechanism...and it is the same sxxit. I have contacted Joshua Francisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Francisco Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 Maybe you should send it back and ask for one of these instead? http://www.tt88time.com/index.php?main_pag...word=ROLDYT0052 It could be that the one you received is old stock, and the two new dial versions may have the updated movement? Or as we all think, it is most probably BS from the factories/dealers.... Joshua told me that old stock was sold out. i have the email. He promised me that I will receive the new movement. Francisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thanks very much, Francisco. I would make one comment: The skeleton gears probably do not have any effect on the friction. This is because the gears only contact the plates at two points - the center pivot, and the outer edge. The old gears were already recessed, so the friction areas are about the same. The skeleton gears do reduce the overall drive train weight, and consequently, the amount of work that the movement must do. Having read both of Avitt's posts (welcome back), I would ditto what he said above. Since the wheel contacts the plate only at its pivot (the teeth contact another wheel), the cut outs will have no effect on friction reduction whatsoever. However, in theory, the reduced mass of the cut out wheel (less material = less mass), does translate into a lower drag coefficient throughout the entire drive train. This means that, all things being equal, the new wheel would add less drag on the engine. But, unfortunately, in this case, the main problem that afflicted the original secs at 6 design (that of adding the additional non-jeweled wheels) remains, so I seriously doubt that this new 'improved' design will increase the longevity of non-graphite treated secs at 6 7750s. And my guess is that the new cut out wheel was used more in an effort to cut production costs than to remedy the problems associated with this design. Thanks for taking the initiative to purchase 1 of these 'new' watches for the breakdown, Francisco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thank you, Francisco. This is a very nice write up. I'm disappointed you didn't find the extra jewels in there, but not all that surprised. And I so wanted to buy an IWC 3714 Portuguese- but I may have to reconsider at this point. I sure wish they'd get these movements right! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickey Padge Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 Joshua told me that old stock was sold out. i have the email. He promised me that I will receive the new movement. Francisco. Hehe, never before will Joshua's customer service skills be watched by so many peeps regarding this issue, than right now.... I really hope it was a drop ship error and that you did get old stock, otherwise our hunt for the reliable modern Daytona continues.... If there is no updated Daytona, then he should offer a full refund..... Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingo9999 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 At first I must say thanks a lot for your great work maestro . I think all we must center our focus in one only problem SOME DEALERS ARE LIYNG US :angry: :angry: Where are the 29 jewels???????? :thumbdown: :thumbdown: I hope Joshua o other could give us a good answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colorao Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 (edited) The cartel dealers think we are idiot ..... and like always are lying us, for sell again the same [censored]. ( the thing that do a dog in a tree ) = Mierda !!! They are Thieves. It Edited January 14, 2009 by colorao Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fakemaster Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 And they'll still be lining uip to buy them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feta1 Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 This is why we need more people need to become RWG SUPPORTERS!!! Francisco's excellent work here saved many members a lot of money.... hats off to you sir!!! I see Josh is reading this thread right now... I wonder if he'll chime in.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RWG Technical Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 To say I am not surprised would be an understatement. The Porto one will be no different than this one, or any of the others we have seen... RG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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