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I am selling all of my PAMs!

I have compiled this set of side by side pictures to try to explain to the membership all the differences there are between the two and hopefully finally make clear some confusion, and show the membership how easy it is to mislead buyers on parts that cannot be seen. This may take some time and many edits and picture uploads, so be patient please. Now lest get some things clear, first on ETA, I could rant on about how ETA is the largest Swiss movement maker in the world and blah blah blah, but it is easier if you read for yourself here ( http://www.eta.ch/ and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ETA_SA ). Now that you have read a little about ETA (I hope) we can proceed. Here are some other links on the specific movement we are talking about in this thread which is the 6497 (http://www.monochrom...panerai-cimier/ and http://www.watches-w...?title=ETA_6497 ) Now you should understand that in this case Panerai does not make this movement and the fact that the 6497 has been around for over 60 years. Let me make it very clear ETA MAKES THE GUTS OF THIS MOVEMENT AND PANERAI MAKES ALL THE PRETTY STUFF THAT ADORNS IT OR DRESSES IT UP, PANERAI DOES NOT MAKE THE PARTS THAT GO INTO THIS MOVEMENT sorry about the caps but it seems many just don’t get it. Panerai OEM is ETA OEM because only ETA is licensed to produce those parts, it is all proprietary To ETA. http://www.eta.ch/swisslab/6497/6497assem.swf The 6497 has several variants and two beat rates 6497-1 = 18000vph (low beat) sec. @ 9:00 6497-2 = 21600vph (high beat) sec. @ 9:00 (Gen. Panerai use this movement in their watches, practically impossible to get and very expensive when found) 6498-1 = 18000vph sec. @ 6:00 6498-2 = 21600vph sec. @ 6:00 Most of the parts you will see here will never be seen on the watch itself because they are buried deep within the watches guts. So let’s start with the main plate, this can be considered the chassis of the watch just like on a car. Here you can see three one is REP the middle is stock ETA and right is modded to look gen. but is still a stock ETA. Most important thing to look for when a watch is advertised as Swiss is the stamp markings under the balance wheel. Only true Swiss movements have this and it is stamped not etched, the REP has no markings at all. On the 6497 there are some numbers on it but the most important thig to look for is the ETA crest stamp. I have not finished my write up, but I want to make one thing very clear. Though the parts may look very much alike, the difference is enormous in the quality of the parts. The ETA parts are a great deal superior to the Chinese counterparts. The ETA parts are made of superior metals and seem to be stronger and heftier. One obvious example is the bridge screws I have sheared off several Chinese screws with out putting any torque on them as opposed to the ETA, they are hardened and I have yet to shear one off. So please don't be fooled as too how similar they are, the main difference is in the quality and longevity of the ETA parts. Back: Front: Now let’s look at the components that go on the front of the base plate and under the dial. This consists of the list of parts pictured below, most of these parts are never seen. Slide pinion: Virtually identical Winding pinion: Also identical Setting lever: Only difference is finish Yoke: Identical Yoke spring: Identical, the ETA might be a little shiner Setting wheel and Intermediate setting wheel: Only differences is finish, ETA is smoother and shinier Minute wheel: Only difference is finish Set lever jumper: Identical, I added a modded one to show how Panerai brushes theirs, beyond that they are the same Set lever jumper retaining screw: Color is different and Rep is slightly domed on the top and ETA is flat Cannon pinion: ETA has a smother finish and brighter shine Hour wheel: Rep is shinier, however Panerai uses a brass wheel see second picture More to come, need to take more pictures to post below Now lets flip the movement and see what parts are in the back side. These parts are more important because here is where all the main mechanical parts of the watch reside. And in the case of some Panerai watches these parts are completely visible to anyone who looks at the back of the watch, and where the largest amount of "tells" are. Escape wheel Third wheel: The third wheel on the ETA 6497-2 is brushed but not on the 6497-1, on the REP. they are too shiny, I mod them to look more gen. Lighting is different on the picture but they are all a light gold tone Second wheel (they come with long lower pivot for second hand or short pivot for no second hand configurations): The third wheel on the ETA 6497-2 is brushed but not on the 6497-1, on the REP.. they are too shiny, I mod them to look more gen. Lighting is different on the picture but they are all a light gold tone Center wheel:The center wheel on the ETA 6497-2 is brushed but not on the 6497-1, on the REP. they are too shiny, I mod them to look more gen. Lighting is different on the picture but they are all a light gold tone Bridge screws(bolts):The ETA is a thicker screw and has a small grip, while the REP has no grip at all. The color is different as well Barrel: Setting lever screw Crown wheel ring Crown wheel Crown wheel screw Click spring Click Click screw Ratchet Wheel Ratchet wheel screw Pallet fork: Pallet bridge: Pallet bridge screws: Balance: Panerai movement which is the ETA 6497-2 use the Glucydur balance that is made and licensed by ETA, the 6497-1 however does not. Glucydur and the balance wheel One of the trademark features of ETA movements is their Glucydur balance wheels, which look like this: Incabloc shock system: Not made by ETA but by Incabloc S.A. and used on ETA movements I hope this helps members understand the differences between the REP parts and the OEM ETA parts. Most of the parts are identical and function the same. I use the ETA parts on my builds because in some cases the ETA parts are built heftier and are obviously made with quality materials. Thanks for looking........

I have seen a few comments from guys on here regarding certain phrases used with PAMs. So I thought I would quickly write down some common words used with a VERY SIMPLE and brief explanation just to help those trying to get their head round this make. I am trying to do a write up separately on a brief history and basic changes in design since the Pre Vendome Era but hopefully that will follow. So here are some very simple explanations Pre V – Pre- Vendome : This is the time Officine Panerai were still a small watch making company before they were bought by Cartier who were later called The Vendome Group and now Richemont. Watches made at this time we call PreV’s (Up to and including 1995) A quick way of telling a PreV is there is no writing under the 6 of the dial Pre A – These are watches made during the transitional period (1996) of the purchase of OP by Cartier (Vendome). The design of watches were changing most notably the case and crown guard shape. A quick way of telling a Pre A is the writing under the 6, it says ‘T-Swiss-T’ A series – This was the first year of release (1997) where Vendome (no longer Cartier) was creating the start of the modern PAMs. A quick way of telling an A series is the writing under the 6, it says ‘T Swiss T’ B – G Series – (1998-2004) These watches followed the basic design of the A series watches but the Tritium lume was replaced by the Super Luminova lume A quick way of telling these series is the writing under the 6, it says ‘L Swiss L’ H series onwards – (2005 onwards) Vendome introduced the Historic design back into the model range, basically changes in the case and the crown guard shape. Of course there have been changes since then and there are variations to the above but in general terms the above serves as a simple guide. Millesimation – Very simply this is the identification numbers of the watch on the caseback. Since 1997 OP has used letters starting with A to designate the year of production. So, B series is 1998, C 1999 etc etc. These letters precede the serial number of the watch and the number of that model made in that year. Above this is the BB number and the OP number which refer to model reference/cases and OPs internal production numbers. Luminor – This original referred to the ingredient in the Tritium used by OP in the 1950s. However now it refers to the style of case and the type of watch. A luminor is a base watch with no seconds sub dial. Luminor Marina – This is a Luminor case with a seconds sub dial. Sausage dial – This is a dial where the lume to mark out the indices and numbers is applied on top of the dial like icing on a cake. Sandwich Dial – This is a 2 piece dial, a base and top dial. The lume is applied to the base and the top dial placed on top (Sandwiched) One Liner/ Two Liner/ Three Liner/ Four Liner - This refers to the number of words (inscriptions) listed on the dial eg: a dial with; Luminor, then below that; Panerai, then below that; Marina, then below that; Militare, is a four liner. This really relates to Vintage models but has been used to talk about later watches. CP – Cannion Pin: This is the pin that holds the hands in place. It is flat and polished. H1, H2, H3 refers to the height of the CP. On PreVs and PreAs the hands are lower (H1) on the later models it is higher (H3) <acronym title='Crown Guard'><acronym title='Crown Guard'>CG</acronym></acronym> – Crown Guard: This is the half moon shaped piece attached to the side of the case. It is designed to hold the crown in place by use of the lever and maintain water resistance at depths. There are 3 main shapes to these, PreV, PreA to G Series and H series on. The latter has 2 finishes brushed and polished. Destro - Means the <acronym title='Crown Guard'><acronym title='Crown Guard'>CG</acronym></acronym> is placed on the left side of the watch. For lefties, though original it was meant for divers to be able to wear their depth gauge/compass on their left wrist with the watch on the right. Logo – This is the OP brand Logo it is seen on the 5218-201a, 000, 005, 195. This logo is a tilted OP with an arrow pointing up and down. The arrows represent above and below ie; watches for below and above the water. Tritium – This is the lume used by OP in their early watches, though as it contains radioactive particles it was replaced with Luminova a safe yet strong luming compound. AR – Anti reflective coating put on crystal to prevent glare in sunlight. It is not on the early PAMs and the type and hue colour of the AR varies from model to model. SLOB - The first PAM prototype produced by Vendome, Solid Brass case coated in PVD, Dome Plexi Glass, Titanium crown, <acronym title='Crown Guard'><acronym title='Crown Guard'>CG</acronym></acronym> lever and CB (10 pieces) Fiddy – This is the nickname of the 127. Fiddy is US slang for fifty. The 127 has 1950 printed on its dial as an homage to its predecessor the vintage 6152/1. Radiomir – These are a different style of PAMs based on the very first military watch produced by OP in 1936. (Later reproduced as the California) The name comes from the ingredient put in the lume of those watches (Originally used on artillery gunsights) which later was replaced by the ingredient Luminor. It has a standard type crown (based on an old Rolex crown) and different case shape with lug wires. Slytechs – These are PAMs that carry the name of Slyvester Stallone who reignited interest in the PAM brand by having a PAM made for him for the film ‘Daylight’, several models carry his name and he is still very much associated with OP. Mare Nostrum - Designed for deck officers in early 1940s,totally different to any other PAM case, re-released version in 1994 but smaller with markered bezel then released as per the original in 2010. OP - Officine Panerai PAM - This is a simple abbreviation used by OP. PAnerai Model. MX - This is a Prefix code used by OP on their parts especially straps. It is also used a lot to describe a buckle with the OP logo on one side and Panerai on the other; it is a similar style to the PreV buckles. These are only sewn in type. PAV - Again this is a Prefix code used by OP in 2004 to designate left over PreV & SlyTech straps so they could be sold by the OP Boutiques. Now used as a bracelet Prefix code Tang - This is a shape on buckles similar to the PreV and are screw in and only have Panerai engraved on them. (24mm and 22mm) Thumbnail - These are rounded shape buckles that look like the tip of your thumb. Also known as Ardillon (22mm) Deployant - A butterfly clasp used to fix straps There are several designs of these for the 44mm, 40mm and Radiomir models. Boutique - A fully authorised / franchised dealer selling only PAMs. The official face of OP. Risti - A term used to describe a member of Paneristi (An officially recognised forum for anything PAM) Can also be used to describe any PAM Head. NOS - New Old Stock: A fair bit of PAM stuff turns up NOS. Basically brand new but sat in a drawer or on a shelf for a good while ! PIG - Its named after a manned torpedo used in WWII , The Italian name for their craft was Siluro a Lenta Corsa - Slow-running torpedo, but the Italians nicknamed it maiale which is Italian for "pig"; because it was difficult to steer. The Brits called thiers a Chariot. Strap Tubes (Tubes) - These are small metal tubes which are inserted into the straps, these maintain the shape of the strap shoulders and prevent over stressing of the case's lug bars when the watch is worn on the wrist by reducing friction and supporting the leather sheathing across the lug bar length. Guide to the various Panerai case styles/materials Radiomir Name: The Radiomir takes its name from “Radium”, the radioactive material originally used to make the dial readable at night. History: In 1938, the Italian Navy (also referred to as ‘Marina Militare’), commissioned Panerai to create a watch that would be waterproof while maintaining excellent readability – thus making the Radiomir, a 47mm watch with large hands and Arabic numerals. It is important to note that Rolex manufactured these watches for the Italian Navy up until 1956. Style: This case style has an unprotected crown and features a cushion-style case. Pay close attention to how the straps are mounted on Radiomirs; the lugs are based on early watches which were modified by attaching wire to either ends of a pocket watch – thus converting them to wristwatches. This detail looks nice and has some serious historical implications. The case style is generally considered to have a “dressy” look due to its slimmer nature (compared to the Luminor) and is loved for its historic role as the first professional diving watch and predecessor to the Luminor. Luminor Name: The Luminor takes its name from a tritium-based luminous substance, far safer than the Radiomir (Radium-based material) used previously. Panerai was granted its patent for the Luminor material in 1949, replacing the unstable Radiomir compound. History: The original Luminor design dates back to around 1950, when Panerai designed a highly unique and functional crown guard in an effort to improve their watches’ water resistance. These crown guards were trademarked as “device protecting the crown” – when the lever is in the closed position, it forced the crown into the case, providing an excellent seal against water and the elements. Style: Arguably the most iconic Panerai case style, the Luminors is typically what are thought of when “Panerai” is heard. Currently, there are 3 variants of the Luminor case style (disregarding size): Bettarini, 1950, and the 1950 “Vintage/Base”. All the Luminor case styles feature the iconic crown guard – making it totally different from other luxury watches on the market. The lugs are modern and more conventional. Straps are changed via a screw-in bar (not the commonly used spring-loaded bars), making straps easy to change while maintaining a sturdy form of attachment. Able to appear dressy and casual via strap changes, the bold and masculine look of the Luminor case became wildly popular thanks to its on-screen popularity with famous on-screen heroes (Stallone, Schwarzenegger, Statham, etc.) A look at the three Luminor case styles available: Bettarini Designed by Alessandro Bettarini (during the rebirth of Panerai) Regarded as the “father” of the Pre-Vendome design Luminors (44mm) Pioneered use of PVD on the watches, previously unavailable Case used on style like the PAM 000 Available in submersible form (PAM 024) 1950 Case used on styles like the PAM 312 Available in submersible form (PAM 243) 1950 “Vintage/Base” Case used on style like the PAM 372 Thinner, flatter lugs than 1950 Visible ridge on sides BB# & WR engraved on bottom of lug For a introduction to some characteristic PAM models based around the history of Officine Panerai, here is a pdf file showing some models and a breif description of thier appearance and influence in OPs history and increasing popularity. WT_Spotlight_Panerai_final.pdf

pam 416 boutique beverly hills, made by h-factory, strap: assolutamente amazing pam model, very accurate produced, great dial ( torpeto on the dial ) with accurate pre-v hands, strong super lume , sapphire clarity absolute top, caseback correct shape with correct deep precise engraving, delivered by andrew ( trustytime ) , a perfect transaction, enjoy rolli

A quickie of my BlancPain:

You may or may not recall but when G.S.W. first joined here he was listing watches for sale. His language raised quite a few eyebrows with a lot of "we are offering this" and "we that". The community, as well as the mod team, questioned him and he swore up and down that he was not a dealer. Initially, it is our stance to take someone at their word. However, he was very closely watched and sure enough he stopped offering watches for sale. His attitude, however, was not that amenable so we gave him a time out for a month. Shortly after his time out, ROCKAREP joined the forum. He even contacted us saying he wanted to be vetted for high value sales and had some nice offerings to sell. We vetted him and gave him the go ahead. He began selling a watch here and a watch there. Over time though, it started to become clear that he was a dealer. As we noticed this, evidence came to light that G.S.W. and ROCKAREP were posting from the same IP address. We were also informed of their shared paypal address which was under a company name called Geneve Swiss Watch Company. Once we discussed all of the evidence, we took action as outlined in this thread.

The Black Crowes - Remedy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZgJrHxWaIg

Ok, I have told this story before, but one Christmas I was at my brother-in-law's home for dinner and from the other side of the table, my wife's sister pipes up for everyone to hear "Is that a real Rolex?" She was looking at my DeepSea from EuroTimez. I thought it over quickly, and knowing how frugal my wife's parents are, there was no way I was going to say I had spent $9000 on a watch with them sitting right there. They would have been appalled. My reply was "No, of course not. There is no way I would spend nine thousand on a stainless steel watch. That kind of usury rubs me the wrong way." If someone says to me "Thats a beautiful watch" I can go either way depending on the circumstance. I can let it slide, with an "Oh, thank you." or I could initiate them in to the "quality replica club" with the full information of the community and culture.

{Another anecdotal data point for those with an eye on the Chinese economy, Swatch Group's Chinese partner says sales growth of its luxury watches has slowed to single digits. Sales growth of low to mid-end watches remains in the "double digits."} LINK: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-07-09/hengdeli-says-china-luxury-watch-sales-slowing-on-economy.html

PAnerai Model @Mike ... I might have an issue mate... all my watches tick but never Tock

Very nice J, I really like the patina of the dial. I never noticed the little "block" on the end of the seconds hand.. pretty cool!

Once again I would ask: Why are folks who are using the forum primarily as a "sales for profit" vehicle allowed to function without becoming trusted dealers..?? One would wonder how long a guy who went to Canal St., and bought $50.00 watches would be allowed to sell them here at $100.00?? My point being: Regardless of the price range and quality of the watches, a dealer is still a dealer...And allowing them to sell their wares on our for sale board creates a tacit sense of approval among our newer members... Just my 2c worth....

About a year ago i received a watch with totaly damaged coating from factory: To much hassle to send it back to China, so i took care of it myself. I let FineDD in Germany do a new coating with no color result: I have another factory watch, that has a blue tint AR coating. Also a pic to compare factory and finedd color free coating. Did my best to catch the blue tint for pic. A good coating job makes a lot of difference in the total looks of a watch. I think it was a € 100 job back then including shipping to Germay and back to me

I do find the irony amusing here. Lest forget we are dealing in counterfeit goods here Gents, its a dodgy game from start to finish. People and Glass houses and all that

I gave my son a 'noob mariner' for graduation from high school. He'll be 24 next month, home for the summer, and we went to a family party Sunday. He was wearing that watch. He has put it through Hell while going to school in Hawaii, even cliff diving with it. It looks it's age and then some, all 'natural' wear and tear. He'll have his big degree soon, and I told him that when he lands that position he's working on, he can buy me a genuine GMT. He said 'Sure Dad. I'll just get it back anyway when you croak'. Brought a tear to my eye. As Harry Chapin sang, "And as I hung up the phone it occurred to me He'd grown up just like me My boy was just like me And the cat's in the cradle and the silver spoon Little boy blue and the man on the moon When you comin' home son? I don't know when, but we'll get together then son You know we'll have a good time then" They grow up far too fast. That's a fact.

I'm a fan of White Collar. Looking forward to the new season this summer!

No, I don't know the site and you also don't want to know it. Scam site, they use pictures of the genuine watches... so not ok. That is also the reason here on rwg we have trusted sellers. Those have proven to offer good products for great prices and most important with reps, offer good after sales service. To protect the membership of the forum.... So look around on the forum for the trusted sellers. Enough to choose from and look on their websites, like the one I gave the link of, to see what the product offering is.

A flikflak or swatch would suite the little boy much better!

Very NB indeed. Certain gens appear to be missing the crystal due to great ar and crystal clarity which is a big tell if the rep doesn't have the same invisible look.

Nice conversation so far As far as I know the pam369 hasn't been repped as in a good replica. For the similar models there are extremely good reps of the pam288 and pam214. Those are very good models. I myself had the 288. But you won't find them for 150usd. If I may be frank, if you are looking for a good rep, then 150usd won't do it. Better save up to models around 225 - 250, then you will have very good panerai reps as well. You will love those a lot better than the 150usd stuff. Quality wise also a lot better. For the up to 150usd in terms of quality I'd rather advise you to choose seiko or something instead of reps for that money. could take a look here: http://puretime.co/category/radiomir-chrono/ http://puretime.co/category/luminor-marina/ Good luck!

Someone's got some balls. Trying to pass of a DW 7032 case set with relumed dial as genuine and asking a nice amount of money for it too! Click me

Re 47 mm Pams, the short answer is to just go out and get a Noob 127 (if you can find one in stock!). Superb quality, the 217 is another option from same maker. Other 47 mm to check out (with lower quality) are 203, 306, 372 (luminors), 187, 193, 194, 305, 382 (submersibles) or 232, 249, 294, 309, 322, 339, 349, 373, 376, 379, 425 (radiomirs). Good luck with the search mate, can also advice on the IWC Big pilots (5002 or 5004), bought one a couple of months ago and love it!

" In the case of small homage companies such as MKII, then there is a better chance that a TC might equal or exceed them - their resources are going to be far closer to those of a Chinese rep factory. I fact, I believe that some small watch makers outsource their manufacture to China - so they might even be made in the same factories as reps!" I don't think the QC of any of the rep factories approach that of watch companies like MKII ,Ocean 7 or a lot of the smaller shops. First off Bill Yao not only inspects every watch he gets back from Switzerland, and by the way, to have the Swiss on the dial, they do have to comply with the Swiss watch industry rules. When MKII was shipping the Kingston's, there were a lot of unhappy folks, primarily because it was taking so long to get the watches out. Every watch went through the same meticulous process, every watch was pressure tested using a "Dry" tester to the stated depth on the dial, and every watch was tested in 3 positions for accuracy. There may well be some smaller watch companies that are using parts from China, but even at that they have much better QC. The biggest difference is what you posted in your post above. The Chinese reps are made by unknown folks in unknown factories. you have very little recourse should something go wrong. Any branded watch is going to have a warranty, a contact source and someone who can take care of your problems should one arise, not necressarily so with reps, and if you don't believe it, read some of the myriad of problem posts on the various forums, written by people who got a broken watch, parts missing, screws stripped, etc. Quite often they were less than satisfied with hte customer service offerd by the dealer. Don't get me wrong, problems happen with the best. I remember a story several years ago on the Omega forum on WUS. a felow went into an Omega AD bought a brand new Omega, wore it home, and the watch stopped less than 24 hours after purchase. the fellow goes back to the AD a couple of days later, shows the watch to the sales person who asked him if he had dropped the watch? No, started acting funny a few hours after I got home, took it off and haven't put it on since. Salesman got their watchmaker to take a look, removed the caseback, couldn't see anything wrong from just a cursory exam, told the customer "we'll have to send your watch back to Bienne, have one of the factory watchmakers have look at it. How long the customer asked? Oh, probably about 3-4 months!! Customer told the manager he wanted a replacement watch or his money back. manager told him, that would be impossible as it's now a used watch. Horror story, you bet. That guy would never buy another Omega, or deal with that store, and you can bet the story got told a thousand times. So bad things can happen with the best and the worst. That horror story aside, I do think you will stand a better chance of getting good customer service from one of the branded watches. Just for comparison, here is a little pictorial "Prebuilt, what the Hell takes so long" it shows the steps that a MKII Kingston goes through from the bare case to a watch ready to ship. http://www.mkiiwatches.com/2011/11/pre-built-watches-aka-what-the-hll-takes-so-long/ I have had really good luck with my reps, by and large. However I usually factor in a movement service as part of the price if it's a watch i plan to keep for any length of time. a good watchmaker can head off a lot of potential problems with a thorough inspection and service.

Congrats!!!