automatico

My first Ducati was a new 1962 250 Monza, next a 1963 250 Scrambler, then a 250 Diana followed by a 450 Scrambler. Still have 1962 and 1963 license tags off a couple of the Ducatis...cracked because of the vibration. I worked after school and weekends and spent every $$ on MC. Last of the breed was a 'fake'...a nos 1985 650 Cagiva Alazurra that I sold to a museum along with a Kenny Roberts edition Yamaha RZ 350 a few years ago (It had 125 miles on it). While I was cleaning out the garage, I sold my 1974 Kawasaki H2 750 (87 actual miles) with full Denco engine, alloy rims. Buchanan Frame Shop stainless spokes, Tony Nicosia handlebars, Magura levers, Denco expansion chambers, Denselube Superchain kit, Denco carbs/K&N filters, needle bearing clutch release, Koni shocks, dual (drilled) front disc kit etc, etc. Bought it new, built it, bought a new leftover 1973 903 Z-1 and never rode the H2 again. It sat in the same spot for 33 years until I sold it. Before Ducatis, I had Allstates...one used-up Mo-Ped, a new 125, and a new 175 'twingle' (made by Steyr-Daimler-Puch). Still have a spare Mo-Ped crankcase/transmission in the garage. After Ducatis, a few 750 Norton Atlas, Kawasaki H2, Honda 750, Z1, etc. Also one new gold and one new black 1976 BMW R90S. Not both at once...the gold one was so bad they gave me the black one in exchange after a couple months, then bought the black one back...it was worse. Then I made up a hot rod Water Buffalo...'77 Suzuki triple with Walt Strader 3 into 1, flat bars, K&N, etc. It was trouble free. Oh yeah, had a couple HD... First was a 1948 Panhead in 1964. Next and last was a 1954 Panhead in 1971. When you own an old HD, you are soon to become a mechanic or a hitch hiker.

"The servicing-repair of the reps is the biggest drawback to this hobby. You end up (like me) with a very beautiful but broken watch that has to be taken almost to "underground" ways to get fixed." You are 100% correct. Otoh...I have seen the same thing happen to genuine rolex and other swiss brand watches in the past 20 years. Long ago in a land far, far away...I used to be a 'rolex guy' and wore genuine rolex watches most of the time. I remember about 20 years ago when I was visiting a friend who worked at a long time rolex AD when a guy came in and asked about having his watch serviced. Back then the AD service price was $360 and a local repair shop would do it for about $150 (because they could get parts from supply houses). When they quoted the $360 figure the man politely said he could not afford it. After he left the AD owner said "Fuok that SOB, before long they will have to crawl through the door and beg us to work on their GD rolex watches." That time is now. So...now I have to go 'underground' to get genuine parts. Since I can work on watches, parts are the main problem so I decided to turn to replicas and here I am. I can fully understand QC problems and repair problems with replicas as QC is mostly a look at the outside and finding a repair guy is about the same hassle as buying 'underground' genuine parts. Since replica quality is 'the luck of the draw', one answer may be going to quartz replicas (still with crown, bezel etc troubles), or giving up replicas all together. Another is to find a reasonable repair guy or learn basic repair skills and do it yourself...while sticking with time and date Etas and easy to replace Asian '21' movements. Outside of that...there is really no solution other than spending a lot of $$.

Here is some random info from an old rolex service manual: Tubes no. 703 are fitted with plastic washer no. 06011. Interchangability...tubes no. 7000, respectively no. 7002, by the tube no. 7030 for as much as the crown no. 700, respectively no.702, be also replaced by the crown no. 703. (??, you can decipher it) Grease slightly the thread of the tube with silicone grease rolex ref. 2909 or grease KT22, rolex ref. 2907. The tubes stand a screwing torque of about 4kg-cm. The latest 'Triplock' crowns are used on rolex: 5512-5513 1680 1655 6263 6265 The latest 'Triplock' crowns are used on tudor: 7016 7021 7031, 7032 7149, 7159, 7169 9401 9411 9420, 9421 9430 (the crowns pictured do not have gaskets on the outside of the case tube...this was all before they came out) I bought some aft/mkt triplock tubes with the outside gasket groove from a supply house a few years ago and they broke off when screwed into cases...replica and genuine. I looked at them just now and they are shorter where they screw into the case compared to oem and oem spec aft/mkt triplock tubes but I can not tell any difference in the threads by eyeballing them...they just bind up and break off in the case. They measure 2.97mm OD and genuine measures 3.0mm so it must be a slightly different thread pitch

"That is just robbery. A brand new Swiss ETA 2824 movement for your UPO is $117 *shipped* Who pays double the replacement price to service something." I agree. I posted on another thread about removing an Eta movement from the case and taking the bare movement (without hands and dial) to get it repaired. Many times this will result in a 50% cost reduction while at the same time keeps the word 'replica' out of the conversation. Good repair guys are few and far between in the USA. I have a friend who works mainly on RR grade US made pocket watches and he spends half his time working on watches and the other half turning down repair jobs. Last RR PW I took to him was gone over 6 months...6 months to get to it and 4 hours to fix it.

"...now if I can learn not press too hard on that tiny button...screwing up the keyless!" Find a screwdriver that is a good fit in the 'keyhole' slot of Eta 28xx and it will not go in far enough to unseat the setting parts. 'Twenty ones' are not too bad but they are more of a hassle to work on because I'm used to Etas.

"I have most of this stuff, but what are pin wrenches?" Aka 'pin vice' etc...a small pencil shaped tool with a screw down collet to grip small round objects such as stems etc.

"If you are suspicious,heed your buddies advice, if he is knowledgable.Otherwise,you need to have them authenticated. I would take them to an older experienced Rolex watchmaker, someone who has worked on lots of vintage watches. The prices are OK, but not super bargains, especially if it turns out the dials are not genuine. Probably at least 1/3 to 1/2 of the value is in the dials and hands. Look at the vintage forums and see what a good quality Red sub dial is selling for.Remember one thing, there are lots of these floating around. I would bet that there are at least 3-4 1680's (Red & White) and about the same number of 5513's for sale just on the Vintage Rolex Market, every day." Very good advice P153! Keeping in mind this is a replica forum... Since the advent of high grade 'supercase' and 'superdial' replicas and insanely priced genuines, I have lowered my standards quite a bit. You might say an enormous bit. For my own use, I would go for a Frankenstein 1680 etc with replica supercase, superdial, and genuine movement (if you like genuine movements). I do not care much for genuine movements any longer because of no parts. If a genuine movement is not that important, go for a 'supercase' and Eta 2846 with a 'superdial' made for the case mounted to the Eta. Use genuine spec case tube and crystal with a genuine crown and have it tested to 50M or so. Hardly anyone can tell the difference anyway, especially self proclaimed 'internet rolexperts'. Many (probably not me) on this forum will bust it in a NYC minute though. Of course if you want a genuine example and plan to wear it a lot, then maybe sell it later on...it will cost a LOT more, both up front and in service/parts cost. What if it gets lost or stolen? Lose it? No way! Well kinda/sorta... I lost a nib tutone 16233 DJ (a few years ago) for over a year...I thought the house cleaner got it but I finally found it in the back of a rolltop desk where I 'hid' it (glad I kept my big mouth shut about it). Then I lost a TAG WN1112 for 9 months. I found it a couple months ago...in the house again! In a Seiko box! I thought it was gone for good...stolen by a crook watch trader etc on one of my road trips. If you can go for a Franko or outright replica, you will save a LOT of $$ but the watch will not sell in regular circles. But...it will probably last as long as a genuine example for a LOT less $$ and a LOT more peace of mind. Something else to think about...the influx of 'supercases', 'superdials', near perfect bezel inserts etc has made hard core collectors gun shy and many will no longer 'pay the price' because they are not sharp enough to tell genuine from 'superstuff' and are very suspicious...so a 100% genuine example might not be worth as much in a few years as it is today. Who knows? What if a 'red hot' buyer gets it in his mind that your 100% genuine watch has a few replica parts? No Sale! Seeing that I choked on genuine 1680, 5513 etc at $1200 a few years ago, there is NO WAY I will pay $4k for one now, especially since I am not sure if I can spot 'superstuff' on one or not. Example: I bought a ND 1655 case from YM and except for a couple tiny details that have been pointed out to me...I can not tell it from a genuine example that a friend bought new in 1971...except for the scratches and nicks on the genuine example. It sure ain't worth $10k difference!

I see many posts about doa replicas in need of simple repairs. You can save a lot of $$ by learning the basics... I would advise anyone who plans to keep their replicas or tends to accumulate a collection to learn how to: 1...remove the movement from the case 2...remove the hands and dial...without damage! 3...reinstall the dial, hands, and movement...without damage! 4...learn to install stems, crowns, crystals, gaskets etc The reasons for numbers 1 through 3 are so you can exchange complete movements or take the bare movement to a repair shop. Many repair guys will clean and oil an Eta 28xxx out of the watch without a dial for $50 or $75 but will not touch one in a replica. They might ask $150 or more to c/o the exact same movement in a name brand watch...Bulova, Mido etc. As for Asian '21 jewelers'...they are really not worth paying to have one repaired but they are fairly easy to take apart and clean and oil. They are cheap enough that if you screw something up, keep it for parts and wait until another one needs working on. If you learn how to work on '21 jewelers' you can easily move on to Etas etc. The 21's are very good to learn about cleaning and oiling balance jewels and handling cap jewels, shock springs etc. Besides...watch repair is a good rainy day hobby and if you master 21's and 28xxx Etas, you will always have something to do and maybe make a little $$. To get started: Rodico! hand pullers hand setters case wrenches set of screwdrivers bottle of Jack Daniels headband magnifier or loupe small and mid size pin wrenches book on basic watch repair that includes automatics and calendars cheapo non magnetic 3C tweezers and cheapo general purpose tweezers light watch oil, heavy watch oil, watch grease, silicon grease for gaskets etc (long time forum member 'Offshore' has most of this stuff) ps: I can understand if anyone does not know what Rodico is but they better know what Jack Daniels is. It's made a few miles down the road from here.

"One thing to remember, most of those folks don't have a "live and let live" attitude. they hate replicas with a passion, some are such purists they scream if someone sells a watch with any aftermarket parts, even if it's clearly stated in the sales posting." After 25+ years attending watch shows etc all over the Eastern/Southern USA, I have met a lot of these 'purist types', from 'unknown' to 'somewhat famous'. I will say this...most of them are A-b-s-o-l-u-te P-r-i-c-k-s (I got c-e-n-s-o-r-e-d) and do not know 10% of what the average 'moster-poster' on RWG knows about watches. I've had them tell me some of my 100% genuine watches are fakes and then try to buy the fake I was wearing after inspecting it for 5 minutes. VRF is a prime example of a bunch of these characters gathered up in one spot. I'm basically a motorcycle guy and was used to everyone being Ok when a group with similar interests gets together...but watchfreaks are a totally different breed. One actual conversation (more or less): WF: "How much is it?" Me: "Three." WF: "I'll give you 2500 dollars for it." Me: "That's three hundred dollars...it's a fake." WF: "No it's not! I can tell a fake when I see one, you're trying to back out!" That was in 2003, that exact same watch (no date sub from WLD) is laying on my desk right now...and it's still a fake.

I looked through my used 7mm steel crowns and found 5 'monobloc' type crowns along with 5 with obvious crimps and 8 with very small, hard to see crimps. All the 'monobloc' styles have thinner arms and bigger holes at the base of the coronet than the crimped crowns. All these crowns are all from about 1995 to 2005. None after 2005 for sure as I have not changed a crown on a submariner since then. All are genuine take-offs. My new (in sealed packs) 703-0 7mm steel crowns all have crimped caps that are hard to see like the 8 mentioned above...the crimps are nearly closed and the gaps are hard to see. You have to look around the edge of the crown skirt to clearly see the cap edge. The gold crowns are made the same way. All my (used and new) crimped crowns have thicker coronet arms and smaller holes at the base. One crimped crown has tiny holes in the coronet points. Do not know if it was made like this or due to damage or polishing. All new crowns are from 1995 to 2005. All new crowns came from DRS on 47th St NYC or rlx Dallas and are genuine. I looked at the crowns through a 20x Accutron scope.

"I would like to know if I can put a genuine movement in any of the current Deep Sea Dwellers that are available today. I would like to wear the watch until the movement fails, and then put in a genuine so that it can be serviced anywhere. Will I be able to put in a genuine movement and are there any difficulties in doing so?" A genuine rolex movement in a replica case is a trap waiting to slam shut on your $$. Parts for genuine rolex movements are getting very hard to get. My advice is to stay away from genuine rolex movements unless you have a dependable repair guy with a parts connection. I have some 30-40 year old rolex watches that I am afraid to wear because of NP-FY. I have a modern 14010M AK that I will not wear for the same reason. No $500+ tune ups for me.

"In these reps powered by Seagull, the Seagull movement has the same 9 and 3 subdial spacing like the V72/727 but no hours counter function. It result the faux subdial with a faux hand at 6." I believe the Seagull ST19 is still a good choice in these projects. Why? 1...They are relatively cheap and easy to find (buy an Alpha for parts). 2...They were designed as manual wind from scratch...no auto parts to remove or fragile manual wind parts to worry with. 3...They are fairly rugged for a chronograph. 4...They have proper subdial spacing. 5...As for no hour counter at 6, I doubt many people time events over an hour anyway. If they do, all they need to remember is what time they started the count. 6...Quite a few Val 72 no longer count hours anyway as they have broken or worn out over the years and the mainspring barrel etc that drives the hour register are hard to find. 7...No one will know it is a Seagull because you can't see through the caseback. 8...Know-it-all 'Rep Busters' might watch a chronograph run a few minutes to see if the minute counter flips but very few will hang around for an hour.

"However, one shocking news changed all that. It was a sad day for most avid watch fans when Rolex announced the discontinuation of their production of their dacade old tradition, the Rolex Submariner 16610." Not nearly as shocking as when they cut off all parts to supply houses in the USA...then they cut off most of the 'official spare parts' accounts. Therefore...I declare March 1, Official Wear-a-Fake Day!

I owned a genuine 6538A a few years back and have a few comments after reading the threads on 6538 projects: 1...Mine had lived a rough life but it looked to have never been polished and did not have any case corrosion...unusual in my experience. 2...The space between the lugs at the 12 o'clock end was a little over 20mm and the other end was about 19.7mm from being bashed or something but there was not a mark on the case. I used a USA rivet oyster on it with the hood on one end ground down a bit. Springbars are the same as 5513 etc. 3...The plated bronze alloy bezel was in excellent condition and was held on to the crystal retaining ring with a shaped spring wire...not snapped over the retaining bezel like modern 'bezel dropper' rlx watches. The red triangle insert was in very good condition but the pearl was mia. 4...If you get in a hurry removing the bezel, it would be easy to break a chunk out of it as the metal is brittle. 5...The 8mm case tube and crown were Ok and all that was needed was a new set of gaskets. The case tube threads (in the case) are not the same as modern watches (bigger OD). 6...A new domed tropic 19 was installed along with a new set of hands. 7...The 1030 was cleaned and oiled, everything was Ok including the sometimes troublesome rotor axle bearing. 8...All in all they are nice watches but nowhere near being worth today's prices imho. So...if I wanted a 6538 replica, I would: 1...Start with the closest to genuine case possible without paying a fortune for a 'designer case'. Same for the dial. 2...Try to get one with a good 8mm crown and if not, get a high quality case tube and crown set like discussed on various RWC threads. Not genuine though, they cost too much now. 3...Try to get a case that will accept oem spec crystals, this is very important. 4...If you find a righteous case...buy a spare one. 5...Go with a slow beat Eta of some sort. I would stay away from genuine rolex 1030 movements because: A...They cost too much. B...Parts are a real hassle. C...They were not that hot to begin with imho. D...You can't see through the case. 6...Use a rivet oyster of some sort. Mine came with a stretch oyster and regular clasp but it was shot. 7...Try to make it water resistant down to 50 or 100 feet so it will not get flooded. 8...Age the watch, crystal, and bracelet by wearing it. 9...Let the sun bleach the dial, hands, and bezel insert. 10...To speed up the aging process...loan it to a wife or girlfriend and get 20 years of wear in 6 months. Or...if you want a genuine example of a famous 1950's/1960's dive watch (bronze bezel and all) for a fraction of the price...get a Zodiac Sea Wolf.

Imho... The buyer sets the price, not the seller. Some buyers are willing to pay higher prices for various reasons. Meanwhile, other buyers laugh at the increases and buy something else with their $$. It takes a year to make a rolex. There's a rolex buyer born every minute. http://www.minus4plus6.com/PriceEvolution.htm

"E" serial 16223 case-set/case back, crystal, bezel, dial, crown, DW are all gen. Also- retaining ring for ETA movement. Dial is champagne/stick- nothing fancy." Fair prices more or less, imho: Case and caseback about $150 to $200 if no case corrosion or damage. Good 'lug hole' cases are getting harder to find. Check closely for case corrosion at gasket surfaces, between lugs, and under bezel. Very little is Ok, a lot is not. Rock the case on a flat surface (front side up) to make sure it is not bent. A little is Ok, a lot is not. Check the case neck to be sure it has not been damaged by a blade when removing the bezel. Nicks = leaks. A no chip/no scratch genuine sapphire crystal about $35. Hard to prove genuine without coronet, really not much difference though. Good 24-603-8 6mm gold cap crown with good threads, no dings or wear through...about $35. Good condition 18k fluted bezel for sapphire DJ (fairly sharp flutes and no blade cuts) with coronet stamps on back side (3.7 grams of 18k)...about $150 or $200. Coronet stamps prove bezel to be genuine but early bezels may not have coronet stamps. Quick set acrylic DJ bezel is lower in profile...it will work but too much crystal gasket shows. Sapphire models should have 18k bezels and mid links. Silvertone or goldtone dial in good condition with all luminous dots and dial feet...$75 to $150 (I started at $75 because I recently bought one for $75). Good datewheel...about $30 to $50. Full set of hands with good luminous material (not cracked or missing)...about $25 or $35. Genuine rolex on the outside, Eta on the inside...$ priceless.

I use a Horotec hand press and it works fine. It sets the hand level and you can control depth if you are careful. First time a hand held press slides off the hand and scoots across a dial, you will wish you had one. It's handy. What more can I say? You can use a hand held press to tilt the hand if needed after mounting and a 4mm+/- wide strip of paper bent in a 'U' shape to lift hands for clearance...being very careful not to crack the luminous material.

"Indeed...Idiots!" Aye! They speak in a gentlemanly manner and screw each other like pirates.

Great tip! I use a heat gun to soften glue on watches with crystals glued in after removing the movement and any plastic or rubber parts. This also works for removing glued in bezel inserts etc.

From earlier in the thread: "Waiting on two cases from DW since November 26." I got a call today (2-8-11), telling me the cases arrived after two months plus. I will pick them up tomorrow. I do not have a paypal account (looong story about paypal and 'watchloverdavid' in 2002), so a friend ordered them for me. Without me knowing about it, he jumped the gun and put up bad feedback a few weeks ago. I asked him to take it down and assume he did. DW refunded the $$. Here is the scoop on the cases (both cases are just alike): 1...The sides of the cases are not flat but rounded like a DJ. 2...The lugs are bored for small DJ size springbars. 3...On one case, the case tube threads are cut out of true (the crown is tilted down) and the crown binds against the crownguard. 3...The back of the cases are flat as should be but there is a very shallow square edged groove cut in the caseback instead of a rounded groove so an oem spec round section gasket will not work. One case came with a flat gasket, the other one did not have a gasket. Some kind of very thin flat gasket would have to be used. 4...One crystal was mounted at an angle and not level around the edge. I removed the bezel by pushing the crystal and bezel assembly off with my finger from the back side with almost no effort. The supplied crystal will not seat flat on the case without danger of cracking...it is quite a bit too small ID. The other case has the crystal mounted flat so I left it alone (it is the one with the crooked case tube). 5...A genuine 127 crystal is a loose fit on the case neck and the inner bezel just falls down over it with no friction at all. They are (summed up in one word)...JUNK. I waited over 2 months for this. They are going back on a slow boat to China. Probably take a couple years. I give up.

From earlier in the thread: "Waiting on two cases from DW since November 26." I got a call today (2-8-11), telling me the cases arrived after two months plus. I will pick them up tomorrow. I do not have a paypal account (looong story about paypal and 'watchloverdavid' in 2002), so a friend ordered them for me. Without me knowing about it, he jumped the gun and put up bad feedback a few weeks ago. I asked him to take it down and assume he did. DW refunded the $$. We will send the $$ back to DW. ...and I owe DW an apology for the bad feedback.

"It's a bit rich generalising many Rolex owners as dickheads." My observation was from 40 years trading watches. The past 20 years has brought about a huge increase in 'PH' r...x owners. Before that, they were not so bad. Since the advent of the internet, it seems they are everywhere. 'Tombzone' for instance.

"As with most things replica, it's amusing to ponder why the factory would change the case specs to match the incorrect retention ring, but I suppose it costs very little to machine off less material when manufacturing cases instead of scrapping stock/inventory of incorrect size rings to make new ones." I have always wondered about this too. I heard a rap tune through an open window while hiding out back of a replica factory just the other day... You fools think we care about cases an' kits! No Fool! Dat ain't it! It's 'bout the cost of three-sixteen an' carbide bits! Not fine finish an' proper fits! That's for fools dat buys the real sh*t! Uh-huh! Uh-huh!

"Wow this just put on a different light on gens for me....i guess there are tolerances the gen manufacturers deem acceptable. so why pay big bucks when you can get the same "tolerances" from a rep." In all my years, I have never been impressed by a genuine r...x watch. Why? There are so many of them and a large percentage of the owners are (for want of a better term), just plain peckerheads. Otoh, I have been impressed by many of the hand massaged replica watches I have seen on TRC and RWG...and the owners are nice guys.

Gevril Tribecca... I had 3 of these nib July - November 2000...numbers 53, 207 and ?? (forgot). I paid $865 for the most expensive one and less for the others. They had 51 jewel 2824-2 eta/DD 'stack-o-crap' movements in them with all the chronograph works under the dial. Quickly traded them all away but still have one new box/paper set. Imho, a watch with a Seagull ST19 is a much better alternative. Lot of parts to break/wear out in an automatic chronograph.