Gens vs. Reps

[By-Tor]

You know, I see an increasing number of posts like "Rep bracelet feels like total sh*te, gen is from a different planet", etc. And the classic BS line "genuine Rolex is much heavier and the steel is SO much whiter, you can spot the rep instantly."

etc.

Usually these come from newbies and people who have never owned the gen, or have just bought their first gen and thus became "gen snobs". You know, like smokers who just quit and after becoming "better people" they start to talk down & harrassing the other smokers. Very annoying member-type, just imho.

I have posted articles which compare 4 gens to their rep counterparts just recently, a Rolex, Omega, Breitling and TAG Heuer. And none of these comparisons back these claims up. Sometimes I'm almost embarrassed how small and meaningless the differences are. I just recently handled a gen Ebel BTR and guess what... it felt just as amazing as the rep. Of course the movement is superb and that rotor is just and rep BTR is one of the nicest built reps ever... but still... we're talking about a watch that retails at $6-7K! On the other hand the gen Daytona felt almost as nice as my rep Seamaster.

Don't get me wrong, there ARE differences, which I appreciate... the movements in gens are much more sophisticated... they're something that you can leave to your son, etc. I don't regret any of my gen purchases. And I will continue buying them. Especially the models that are impossible to replicate properly, like the BTR (which is going to be my next gen if the next rep doesn't have the tight spacing & fixed rotor).

But after modding my rep SMP Chrono with a gen insert (received from a forum friend) I realized that I couldn't tell it from a gen if someone gave the watch to me for a quick inspection. And I own the gen non-chrono, and browse this place every day!

Another rep that managed to impress me a lot was Skyland v2. The pictures don't tell the whole truth, the replication is just insanely good.

The reason why I posted this is that I decided to send my genuine Steelfish to my Breitling AD, for a complete overhaul. There is a small AR glitch on the top corner. It's very, very minor glitch but bothers me. I want my watches "as new", especially the Fish, which is important watch for me. They don't recoat the crystal, you need a new one. And replacing it is going to cost me 320 friggin' Euros! I told them to buff ALL the scratches and dings away too. That's going to be another 100€.

Have you taken a look at Rolex & Breitling gen parts & service prices? I suggest you do... you'll appreciate your reps MUCH more. They are gross. Breitlings are watches with basic ETAs inside them but they must have copied their service & parts prices from Breguet! New bracelet for Seawolf? Around 500 Euros! Is it full platinum? Previously owned by Elvis? No, it's a friggin' stainless steel watch band!!!!

If the glitch were on my Skyland rep, I only had to ask a new spare crystal from a dealer or send it over to Chief for new coating. It would probably be around $50 (just an estimation).

Oh by the way... I bought the Skyland from a trusted member for 130 Euros. The whole watch. And it feels just as "gen" as my real gens.

The lesson: I think we should appreciate the best reps much more. They're amazing. And they're NOT produced in dark basements by a bunch of 10-year olds. People who think reps like Skyland v2 could be done without high tech manufacturing line should get their heads examined.

I have spoken.

[Ztech]

For me it's always been the "knowing" and having peace of mind that true professionals put their skills to use in putting together a gen. Not that rep makers aren't professionals either, but I think you get my drift. This is all the reason why I leave the rep world,now and then, only to come back at some point when I'm looking down at my "gen" watch and wondering to myself if that peace of mind is really worth the extra (fill-in-the-blank) money. So I leave the discussion of how much better gens are to others and go about my life attempting to balance gens with reps. Good post BT.

[robertk]

.......and you have spoken well. I agree completely. having a number of gens and a ton of reps, I have to admit that what were able to get today is soooo close to gen that it actually discourages me from getting the real deal. On two gens, one a vintage rolex the other a breitling I spent close to $600 each for a complete service.

We are so fortunate to be in on the wave of these amazing new manufacturing processe's.

Lucky us.

[TeeJay]

[redwatch]

Well said BT....and thanks for posting this. I have been really amazed by the quality of a lot of the reps I have handled and seen. Sure there are subtle differences, but to get that close is pretty amazing to me. Especially with the volume of replication we are dealing with.

Of course going the Franken route can be a nice way to offset those subtle differences and you still save a lot of money over buying the gen (and the Franken's tend to have more personal value just because of the work involved in building one).

[dluddy]

Well said BT

[By-Tor]

Oh by the way... another people who I find funny are the guys from Poor Man's Watch Forums that come here to praise their Indochina-made Invictas and educate us poor counterfeit bastards "how much better quality watches they are".

I have owned close to 100 watches (plenty of gens before I found TRC back then) and 2 Invictas (you know, those Sub "homages" as the gen people call them). They were the absolutely SHITTIEST watches I've ever had. One leaked like crazy and another lost the winding crown when I tried to set the time. On top of that the '6 hour marker dropped from the "Swiss" version... after 2 weeks of use. Bracelets rattled like horny cats.

The dealers may "cherry pick" for me, but strangely I've only had 2 QC issues with reps over the years (both occurred during the shipment).

I'm well aware of the QC issues that members have, esp. from the dropshippers... but just think about it... how many reports you see of the A7750 movements? Very few. And it's a genuine automatic friggin' chronograph. What is the cheapest competitor? Yeah... a Hamilton Swiss 7750, and they cost 3-4 times as much. Who wants to wear a friggin' Hamilton?

[jeff g]

For me the whole rep thing is the ability to hold and wear a watch that I admire.

Were I to make the decision that I wanted to wear this watch for awhile, then the opportunity to own it as rep would positively influence

the decision to purchase the gen.

IMO the difference between rep and gen is finish as well as the movement.

Unfortunately for me personally...the watches the have appealed to me most, are the gens that I could never afford, or not be able to justify to purchase from a financial

aspect alone. My favorite watches are my PP Nautilus, and my PP Aquanaut. I will never be able to afford either of these gen watches.

I have recently sold 1/2 of my collection because in purchasing many reps I have been able to determine which watches worked for me.

IF I was a rich guy, I would own a half dozen gens, instead of two dozen reps.

[fakemaster]

The majority of those opinions usually come from people who have never seen the gen counterpart. So it's hard to take seriously.

Edited March 31, 2010 by fakemaster

[panerai153]

By-Tor,

Great post and something that needs to be said. I think we tend to "pick the nits" and whine way too much. I would like to know if some of the folks who whine the loudest about "Crappy reps" have ever had a genuine watch serviced. like you, I had genuines for probably 30+ years before I even knew reps existed. And of course the first reps were horrible! I didn't know until I saw one that Rolex made a Day/Date with a quartz movement!!! Over the years, most of my genuines required a service. Back then (1980's) A full Rolex service set you back about 250.00 dollars. A lot of money then. I really got a rude awakening when I sent my Breitling ss/Gold Chronomat in for service.( this was probably about 1994-5) I got an estimate of over 500 dollars! I almost fainted when I opened the letter. I called Breitling service to question why they needed to change the pushers, the crystal as well as the 4 bezel markers? their answer was "that is a standard service and those items need to be changed every time your watch is serviced". They also wanted to change the calf strap (Deployant) to the tune of over 100 bucks! For a freaking brown calf strap)I politely declined that option. So folks the genuines may be better, but they are pretty darn expensive to keep going.

I am constantly amazed at how close to genuine most of the reps really are. I know some have problems, and quite a lot need some after purchase modding to make them really "right", but for the price, they are the biggest bargain going.

[Ronin]

Well said BT. As someone who owns both rep and gen, the difference is not (always) that huge. For example, by BK-Noob Explorer II -vs- my Gen Explorer II -- Honestly, on the wrist they feel identical. The BK/Noob Bracelet -- hell, if I broke my gen bracelet, I would consider using it on the gen. Same goes for my BK/WM9 Sub -- good enough. I was recently blown away by my rep IWC 3717.

My attitude is, get the rep close enough cosmetically, and buy the ones that will accept ETA movements. When the movements die, a simple swap is all it takes keep them running.

[freddy333]

Good points, All.

[maxman]

You know, I see an increasing number of posts like "Rep bracelet feels like total sh*te, gen is from a different planet", etc. And the classic BS line "genuine Rolex is much heavier and the steel is SO much whiter, you can spot the rep instantly."

etc.

Usually these come from newbies and people who have never owned the gen, or have just bought their first gen and thus became "gen snobs". You know, like smokers who just quit and after becoming "better people" they start to talk down & harrassing the other smokers. Very annoying member-type, just imho.

I have posted articles which compare 4 gens to their rep counterparts just recently, a Rolex, Omega, Breitling and TAG Heuer. And none of these comparisons back these claims up. Sometimes I'm almost embarrassed how small and meaningless the differences are. I just recently handled a gen Ebel BTR and guess what... it felt just as amazing as the rep. Of course the movement is superb and that rotor is just and rep BTR is one of the nicest built reps ever... but still... we're talking about a watch that retails at $6-7K! On the other hand the gen Daytona felt almost as nice as my rep Seamaster.

Don't get me wrong, there ARE differences, which I appreciate... the movements in gens are much more sophisticated... they're something that you can leave to your son, etc. I don't regret any of my gen purchases. And I will continue buying them. Especially the models that are impossible to replicate properly, like the BTR (which is going to be my next gen if the next rep doesn't have the tight spacing & fixed rotor).

But after modding my rep SMP Chrono with a gen insert (received from a forum friend) I realized that I couldn't tell it from a gen if someone gave the watch to me for a quick inspection. And I own the gen non-chrono, and browse this place every day!

Another rep that managed to impress me a lot was Skyland v2. The pictures don't tell the whole truth, the replication is just insanely good.

The reason why I posted this is that I decided to send my genuine Steelfish to my Breitling AD, for a complete overhaul. There is a small AR glitch on the top corner. It's very, very minor glitch but bothers me. I want my watches "as new", especially the Fish, which is important watch for me. They don't recoat the crystal, you need a new one. And replacing it is going to cost me 320 friggin' Euros! I told them to buff ALL the scratches and dings away too. That's going to be another 100

[P4GTR]

Damn B.

+ 'ing 1.

Everyone from the guy that just joined today, to me, to even someone like ByTor.. I think we're an ever-evolving bunch. I realized just today, 40mm has become too small. Months ago, I wanted a gen 11610 and wondered if Skyland was too big for my 7" wrist. Now its my attainable grail.

The thing is... the rep is so good, why bother?

There in lies the route of the problem with our hobby, if one had to be earmarked.

[TwoTone]

Wise words my friend...

Good post...

Double T

[By-Tor]

For me the whole rep thing is the ability to hold and wear a watch that I admire.

You nailed it perfectly. Whether it's a rep or gen doesn't really matter... it's genuine (no pun) love for certain watch models... as long as the rep is good enough of course.

[HauteHippie]

Right on. Once you spend enough time around reps - wearing them and using them ... and around rep forums - reading detailed reviews and viewing even studying endless macro photos ... and then still find yourself buying the genuine article, aesthetically it's for the little things, not the blatant. It's in the minor, yet pleasing details. And also, as you mention, for the things unseen yet appreciated that are hidden inside the case.

I bought my wife a genuine Datejust last year. Oyster bracelet, smooth bezel, white dial with Roman numerals. The bracelet is dainty and silky smooth at every joint - probably lighter (not heavier) than the rep. There are no sharp edges on the clasp, and the clasp is neither too tight nor too loose. And it fits like a glove between the lugs. The power reserve is impressive, and it winds smoothly, effortlessly, and with no discernible noise. The dial print is precise and crisp, but not overstated. Yes... MINOR differences from Josh's $200 version. All the difference in the world to me, however, and yet I am also quite aware that the run of the mill person off the street would never understand or even be able to notice these things if shown side by side. But I just don't care. Maybe it sounds snobby... but it's not. The few gens I've owned over the years, I may have never owned if not for the rep versions which only heightened by appreciation in the first place.

[By-Tor]

Chief,

I know exactly what you mean. I love my gens and I have purchased each one of them for the exact reasons you listed. As I've stated elsewhere, gens are the only option when it's about your grail watches and "all time favorites". First get them "rep tested": buy the rep and see the watch has long term appeal or not. I've owned tons of watches that I initially loved but after a month or two they became just "ok". You can easily sell the rep for minimal loss and get another. Selling very expensive gens isn't as easy. It would really suck to be on the "Rolex waiting list" for a Daytona and then realize that the pictures were deceiving and the watch does nothing for you. Or realize that it was the black dial version that you preferred after all...

Reps are an excellent option when you just like some watch "a lot". There's a big difference between liking a watch for $250 or $2500. And then there are a few extraordinary reps that are so good that gen becomes meaningless (unless it's one of the "grails").

To me reps and frankens are much more interesting topic. I think this community is pretty unique... we see much more different models because we can afford to experiment a little, and be more adventurous. Not like the gen forums where 90% of the guys wear a black Sub or Omega Seamaster.

[mactower]

I know what you mean re: bracelet pricing, I was at an AD for Porsche Design a few months ago, interested in the rep and wanted to get a quote on a SS bracelet. I was told it was north of $1000 and would have to be ordered. $1000! For a SS bracelet. Ha!

[swdivad]

I agree with you guys 100%

I've also owned many gens over the years, some have stayed, some have gone... some have been sold to fund reps!!! They really are THAT GOOD.

In the end... at least 75% of your money towards a gen goes into marketing, high price executives, sailboats, and rich & famous peoples' wrists... Sorry, but I don't really wanna fund their parties, I wanna fund my own party

I'm just trying to figure out what to build next LOL

[deniz21]

well said bytor, and i totaly agree with that

[rytox]

My boss just ordered a Breitling bracelet for €900 yesterday.

He told me, it took him more than a second to think if he should buy the gen or an aftermarket part...

[gran]

Oh by the way... another people who I find funny are the guys from Poor Man's Watch Forums that come here to praise their Indochina-made Invictas and educate us poor counterfeit bastards "how much better quality watches they are".

I have owned close to 100 watches (plenty of gens before I found TRC back then) and 2 Invictas (you know, those Sub "homages" as the gen people call them). They were the absolutely SHITTIEST watches I've ever had. One leaked like crazy and another lost the winding crown when I tried to set the time. On top of that the '6 hour marker dropped from the "Swiss" version... after 2 weeks of use. Bracelets rattled like horny cats.

The dealers may "cherry pick" for me, but strangely I've only had 2 QC issues with reps over the years (both occurred during the shipment).

I'm well aware of the QC issues that members have, esp. from the dropshippers... but just think about it... how many reports you see of the A7750 movements? Very few. And it's a genuine automatic friggin' chronograph. What is the cheapest competitor? Yeah... a Hamilton Swiss 7750, and they cost 3-4 times as much. Who wants to wear a friggin' Hamilton?

Agreed reps are just as good or better than most poor mans watches

...but nothing wrong with a Hamilton or the Poor mans watch forum(s) btw they list the Seiko SKX779K "Black Monster" or SKX781 "Orange Monster" as their favorite

www.pmwf.com is a very very nice place

[chronoluvvv]

STOP railing on the Hamilton, haha

no but seriously my dad left me a nice steel one ... hand-wound too

[FxrAndy]

The gens are a nice investment (if you buy the right ones) particualy if you want something to leave to your kids, I do have to fully agree with BT, Particualy what you actualy generally get in a gen at Rep price, the likes of fosile or festina when you look at the top end of the rep price range, these are not better watches at all, go a bit higher and from the smaller companys then you can get a hand assembled watch built just for you but when you look at the major brands, it is all pay for the name and then pay again when it comes to repair and servicing.