Installing a hev valve on a cartel 1665

[Champagnesky]

As the topic says, have anyone tried it?

[cib0rgman]

a long time ago The Zigmeister did that on m MBW 1665, you need skills for that, as you know the HE valve is fake, so a hole has to be drilled and do all the other things that come with the job. not easy to do.

[alligoat]

Freddy also did it on a MBW 1665 case many years ago and wrote about it in a post. You need the valve with a gasket and the inside hold down piece. I guess you could tack weld or glue the hold down piece to the inside of the case. You could try the search function, or better yet pm Freddy.

Ironically my first DRSD from Paul had a functioning HE valve- it was a very good copy of the original, but that was in 2006!

Haven't I seen the parts on Phong's website?

[automatico]

Some early '5514' and '1665' replicas had oem spec HE valves.  Many long time members have seen them and many came from the long gone 'Abay' website about 15 years ago. 

I bought a genuine HE valve kit (p/n 24-V50), compared it with one from an Abay watch and they are identical in form and function.

 

Here are pictures of an aftmkt example from Yuki with dimensions:

http://www.yukiwatch.com/catalog/item/6784664/7541837.htm

 

If I wanted to mimic a HE valve on the cheap, I would get someone to bore a hole in the case and machine a valve a few .000 mm larger than the hole (without the groove for the leaf spring), then press it into the case.  I have done this a few times and the only catch is making the valve stem just the right size so it can be pressed in the case without bending, stay in place, and seal.  I did not use an O ring but depended on the tightness of the press fit to seal it up.

 

I do not take in any work.

 

[jmb]

I installed one of the functional Yuki valves for bro. woof a long time ago - exactly like the Rolex item.  It was a bit nerve-wracking but I got through it.  But, it's not a project to tackle with a hand drill unless you are going to "cheat" like Automatico did!

[RageRover]

JMB/Justin,

NICE job!  If you don't mind me asking, what case are those pics of?  Cartel? Other?

 

Is it from the case you said you did a LONG time ago?

 

What I'm trying to get at is it a cartel case?  I'm sort of assuming if it's a Yuki, Phong, etc you wouldn't be installing the valve.  Those (expensive) cases have a usable valve.

[highoeyazmuhudee]

never really understood the point of a functional he valve on a rep build. (99% gen franken builds excluded, of course :D)

they're expensive, complicated, potential for leakage.

 

 

just sand the existing one with 2000grit to give it some contrast between the case and valve and don't worry about it.

 

[jmb]

On 4/12/2018 at 10:21 PM, RageRover said:

JMB/Justin,

NICE job!  If you don't mind me asking, what case are those pics of?  Cartel? Other?

 

Is it from the case you said you did a LONG time ago?

 

What I'm trying to get at is it a cartel case?  I'm sort of assuming if it's a Yuki, Phong, etc you wouldn't be installing the valve.  Those (expensive) cases have a usable valve.

 

I have no idea, it was for a member a long time ago.

[Nanuq]

While it's cool to have a real genuine functioning HE valve, it's also another potential spot for leakage and corrosion. My "Paul" Abay watch fogged up every time I went for a mtn bike ride until I took that pin out and filled the hole with silicone rubber before pushing the pin back in.

[automatico]

"My "Paul" Abay watch fogged up every time I went for a mtn bike ride until I took that pin out and filled the hole with silicone rubber before pushing the pin back in."

 

Yep.  That's why I like pressed in cheater valves. 

The Abay valve was better at letting moisture in than it would have been at letting any potential helium poots out.  

 

Who fared 'at shot? 

I fardit.   

[Champagnesky]

On 2018-04-13 at 4:35 AM, jmb said:

I installed one of the functional Yuki valves for bro. woof a long time ago - exactly like the Rolex item.  It was a bit nerve-wracking but I got through it.  But, it's not a project to tackle with a hand drill unless you are going to "cheat" like Automatico did!

Great job here jmb, i see that you used 2 drill sizes. I assume that you did the smaller hole first? I actually want to lathe a he valve, ive got the specs from yukis site so making it wont be a problem, and I guess that the piece holding it on the other side is made of brass, so should not be a problem making one. Dont really know if the cartel case is gen spec for holding a gen movement in the future, do you have any info on this?

[automatico]

"I guess that the piece holding it on the other side is made of brass..."

 

The genuine spring appears to be steel of some type, maybe spring steel, can not tell because my oem valve is still in the blister pack. 

The spring being too soft may be why the Abay valves allow the watch to fog up...not enough tension on the O ring.

 

If the Yuki spring is brass, it is probably because brass is soft and easy to punch out because brass does not make very good spring material.  If a springy piece of steel is needed, maybe use the 'old reliable'...automotive feeler gauge material like I use to make case clamps etc now and then.  It is tough, springy, cheap, and comes in many thicknesses.  Drill the hole, file the slot, rough cut to size with tin snips or heavy duty scissors, then smooth up the outside edges.  The slot will probably be rough going because it is so narrow so a full size piece of feeler gauge would be easier to work with starting out with it clamped in a small vise.  My gauge stock is about 13mm wide x 85mm long so it is probably wide enough to make the spring crossways.  Maybe start with .25mm or so and see how it works.  Next, cut or grind it down to size after the hole and slot are finished and polish it if needed.

 

The spring tension being a little too tight is Ok because I doubt anyone on the forum will try one out.   

 

 

[Nanuq]

Quick! Someone write a differential equation! We need to compare area vs force for crystals on rehauts vs the itty bitty pin in its hole!

[Sogeha]

Just to play Devil’s Advocate here, but when you have paid for all this fancy machining it’s still a Cartel case and may have a working HEV or the appearance of a working HEV that nobody outside a small number of deep water professional divers are ever going to need. Why not just put the money into a Ruby case set which is $400-450 and gen spec?

[Nanuq]

Because this:

 

 

"Built not Bought" I have more $$$ tied up in this than in a new Jeep Rubicon, and it's slower and less capable off-road. But it has MY fingerprints and blood all over it.

 

[Sogeha]

All very true, but if your intention was to make that look like a Jeep Rubicon you would have failed miserably.?

Maybe just me, but all that machining on a Cartel case would seem to me more use on welding and redrilling the crown at the correct height. Each to their own and there have been some great Cartel based builds, but the crown height is a dead give away and by the time anyone has figured out the HEV is a dummy they might well have spotted that it is not a Rolex movement inside.

 

Anyway Mister Built not Bought, I happen to know you have bought parts from Phong, Ruby, Tonnywatches and even the nameless one. Anyone with the skills and tools to fit a working HEV, raise the crown height, shape the case and the tricky to get right crown guards, fair play. For those of us using a modder for some or all of the work, buying better parts to begin with gives a better and more cost effective result.

[Nanuq]

Well dammit there you go, making sense again!

[automatico]

"Just to play Devil’s Advocate here, but when you have paid for all this fancy machining it’s still a Cartel case and may have a working HEV or the appearance of a working HEV that nobody outside a small number of deep water professional divers are ever going to need. Why not just put the money into a Ruby case set which is $400-450 and gen spec?"

 

"For those of us using a modder for some or all of the work, buying better parts to begin with gives a better and more cost effective result."

 

I agree.  If you have to pay to have it done it is usually not worth the cost, especially on a cartel replica.

 

Home made 'cheater' valves are not very expensive to make.

The 316 stock to make one valve is maybe 25 cents.  Probably less.

Two drill bits are maybe $2 each.  Figure them good for at least one job.  A miniature carbide end mill to cut a flat O ring seat would be expensive ($20 - $35), another good reason for cheater valves.

The carbide tool bit was around $5 but it is good for 30 or 40 valves.  Cost to sharpen it now and then = $0.  

Since they are cheater press in valves there is no spring or O ring and no machining inside the case or anything.

Can not add the cost of a lathe, drill press/milling machine etc unless you buy them for this job.  If you figure wear and tear on the machinery, allow maybe $2 or $3.

 

I have a few vintage type replicas I wear now and then and none of them are 'super replicas' or much better than the average higher grade replicas you see on occasion...not Canal Street Junk, but not professionally detailed examples either.  I have needed to point out the 'tells' on just about every one of them when a self proclaimed 'rolex expert' looks at them.  Most of these 'experts' are not as sharp as they think they are when they get away from the internet.  For this reason, crowns a hair too high or too low have never been much of an 'issue' with me.  No one ever notices it. 

 

For 'vintage' replicas, some 'issues' are:

lug holes too close to an edge

lug holes too small or too big

wrong spring bars

'no hole' hoods on cases with lug holes

lug holes chamfered on the outer side

botched lug top bevels

lugs ground too thin aka 'pointy lugs'

botched CG mods

crown too far from case when screwed down

botched attempts to 'age' the case/bracelet on an otherwise high quality watch 

wrong beat rate (28800bph on a vintage model, I can handle 21600)

date mag problems...low magnification, wrong offset, too high or low

ratty date fonts or date not centered in window

dials murdered by shoddy attempts to 'relume' or 'age' them

botched bezel insert aging attempts

hands out of correspondence (H hand on the dot, M hand 5 or 7 min off)

hands mounted too low or high

solid bracelet mid links where they should be hollow

Oh yeah, 'Top Hat' crystals.  I hate 'em.  

...and many more

 

Feel free to add to list.

 

[Champagnesky]

On 2018-04-17 at 1:25 AM, Sogeha said:

Just to play Devil’s Advocate here, but when you have paid for all this fancy machining it’s still a Cartel case and may have a working HEV or the appearance of a working HEV that nobody outside a small number of deep water professional divers are ever going to need. Why not just put the money into a Ruby case set which is $400-450 and gen spec?

Rubys is 680 dollars btw

[automatico]

"Rubys is 680 dollars btw"

 

I paid $550 each for Yuki 5512 and 5513 cases in May 2014.  Do not know how much they sold for recently.

I've noticed there are no 5512/13 on the Yuki site lately.  Maybe they are 'special order' now?  Two types of 1665 and tudor 9411 are still shown.

Last deal in new MBK watches was probably from 'rolexfinder' a couple years ago.  Afaik that was the end of them.

Cartel cases are mostly Ok but are a moving target.  Accurate cases here today, gone tomorrow...often replaced by something not as good.

 

It all makes a '1016' look like an easier project.  

[marqtz]

The Noob SD V2 16600 #Zsn has a working HE valve.

[RageRover]

On 4/16/2018 at 9:56 PM, Nanuq said:

Because this:

 

 

"Built not Bought" I have more $$$ tied up in this than in a new Jeep Rubicon, and it's slower and less capable off-road. But it has MY fingerprints and blood all over it.

 

BEAUTIFUL, LOVE how you left the "aluminium" (not aluminum) bare and the steel pieces painted (or red primer? or was it out of laziness or waiting to be painted?).  At the launch of the 90, Rover had a polished 90 and galvanized the steel parts (or at least the visual parts). Of course you have more $$$$$ in an Land Rover Series II/IIa thanks to the "prince of darkness."  I get my parts direct from England, when I'm ordering a bunch of parts.  Also usually have a friend importing one (or 3) and can throw some parts in the container.  Msg me if you want to know where I've been buying parts for ages!  I used to import Series & "Defenders" (everyone calls a 90, 110, 127/130 "Defenders").  A friend and I were doing it out of our University dorm room (as well as trading options & derivatives, risk arbitrage... basically hedging on a large margin).  I havent imported anything in a while but plan to in a few months.... (lost a lot in the market.... having a LARGE margin KILLED me!).

 

I still drive a D2 with about 135,000mi on it (yes, I had my head gaskets changed!  Who hasn't).  My family has been driving Rovers before I was born and we owned some rare factory ("SVO") Rovers.  Currently we have 4.  I have friends that have "fleets" of Rovers.  A friend of mine has a PERFECT 101, had a 107, has a bunch of 110s, a NAS "Port" 90, a factory Swiss military 88 II/IIa.  Another friend specializes in engine/drivetrain conversions on Series, "Defenders" & Classic Rangies.  He was doing a lot of Mercedes Diesels and some GM 4 cylinder conversions for Series & 90s, 110s.  I think he may be doing some GM V8 (LS & Vortec conversions... Vortec = an LS for the trucks, suburbans, tahoes, etc.  Like an LQ4/LQ9).

 

Why do you think my "nick" is RageRover?

 

Dunsfold seems to own it now, it appears Land Rover did another polished & Galvy, unpainted 90 (300 TDi, R380) in 1998 for their 50th anniversary.  Apparently the bulkhead (made of steel) was painted (according to the description) I guess in a VERY metallic silver.  Other parts look Galvanized.  But other parts appear painted in silver as well.  I wonder what they did with things like the door the door frames (likely painted)?

 

Dunsfold's page of the vehicle <http://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/collection/defender/1998-show-car-for-50th-aniv>

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2018 by RageRover

[RageRover]

One of my dream vehicles, the RRC (Range Rover Classic) "CSK".  It was made for the UK market, hence all are right hand drive, to celebrate the end of the 2-door RRC production & "CSK" - Charles Spencer "Spen" King who designed the original Rangie, which was 2-door until about 1990.  He also had a hand in the original Mini and other Rover vehicles.  I plan on either eventually getting one of he 200 CSK or easier and cheaper a standard 2-door, upgrading it to CSK-Spec and making my own "homage."

 

Whats the difference in a "CSK" and a standard 2-door?  The CSKs had a very (for the time, 1989-1990) luxurious interior we in the US only got.  Lots of leather & wood.  In Europe, you can get a "cheap" Rover with cloth seats, no wood... not even an AC unless you wanted it!

 

Since all 200 were right hand drive, I'll likely find a nice 2-door RRC (Range Rover Classic) and make an homage.

 

CSK unfortunately died only a few years ago due to being hit by a vehicle in London while ridind his bike.  Although he was "high up" in the car industry, he rode a bike most of the time!

 

Heres' Dunsfold's CSK Page 

 

[RageRover]

On 4/17/2018 at 11:58 AM, automatico said:

(SEE ABOVE)

I agree with you 100% and what you've said is a big reason i've put off buying a Rolex or Tudor "homage".  I'm tempted to but a Tudor Black bay and a cartel 1665 Great White and some Silix "big Crown" cases to practice on.  But I don't think I have the skills to make a decent replica case... maybe I can do a dial by blowing cigar smoke on it, a few drops of coffee & giving it a light spray of some matt clearcoat ... the bezel insert (metal) I'm sure I can give a "bleach bath", but ultimately a case that's off, at min, eerks me and I'd be afraid to get "called out" on it.

 

The dial, if someone ever says something I guess i can always say "it's a bad re-dial!"

 

Panerai, which has been growing on me over the years, the basic editions seem 98% to me & if you "age" it up a bit like its a 10yr old daily worn watch, i dont think you'll be called out on it.  Maybe i'm wrong?

 

What amazes me, is that in a time where you can 3D scan something for very little cost and CNC something for a low cost (there are plenty of on-line machine shops u just send your file to), NO ONE has come out with a semi-accurate case.

 

Someone please correct me if im wrong, cant you buy a small home 3D scanner for a few $hundred?  and a small CNC is a few $hundred (i've looked into it), if not, send your scanned file to a machine shop.

Edited April 24, 2018 by RageRover

[RageRover]

On 4/19/2018 at 10:51 AM, automatico said:

"Rubys is 680 dollars btw"

 

I paid $550 each for Yuki 5512 and 5513 cases in May 2014.  Do not know how much they sold for recently.

I've noticed there are no 5512/13 on the Yuki site lately.  Maybe they are 'special order' now?  Two types of 1665 and tudor 9411 are still shown.

Last deal in new MBK watches was probably from 'rolexfinder' a couple years ago.  Afaik that was the end of them.

Cartel cases are mostly Ok but are a moving target.  Accurate cases here today, gone tomorrow...often replaced by something not as good.

 

It all makes a '1016' look like an easier project.  

Automatico, I'm surprised after all these years, no one knows the source of these Vietnamese cases?  You may have paid $550,  But to make a decent rep with an old $70 ETA or new $65 SeaGull 2824 or similar movement will cost you likely in the $1k area and will require plenty of "case work"