Mark_zijn Posted July 21, 2022 Report Share Posted July 21, 2022 I had, imho, the perfect Franken 16610 but is sold it a couple of years ago. And I miss it dearly so I want to build another one. What is the beste base to start from? I noticed some dealers aren't around anymore, so where to get one? thanks in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord Posted July 21, 2022 Report Share Posted July 21, 2022 Good question! if you have a Flexible budget, it could still be within reach! As you know the problems we are all facing In this hobby is the availability of quality parts! The 16610 is no longer the hot thing in town as it has been replaced by that goofy new tuna can style ceramic insert model 116610 - the in thing amongst peoples with more cash than $#*#$. Finding a close to 1:1 spec is going to be very difficult unless you can trace down a pre owned item that no longer buzzes on the owner! if I really wanted to spend the money, I would buy a star supply case and as many parts that come with the case at star supply as this case is designed as an aftermarket replacement for the 16610 which should fit the genuine 3135 movement! if you have plenty of change left' you may probably still find a pre owned 3135 with some luck, but if this is not a necessity to your build I would buy a genuine eta 2824 which should fit this case, but the real problem is getting the right case ring which was once made by TC ( who seems to be either retired from the watch hobby or for good) to accomodate the eta movement in a genuine spec case! This ring is a must, but again finding one is going to be challenging unless someone else has also cloned this ring! I have been looking for one since TC went West or East! The other avenue you have is to be on the hound side to buy a pre owned one in the sale Section of this forum! Sorry that this isn’t much help but it is what I would do if I really really wanted a great piece that runs circles over the cheap quartz copies good luck!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted July 21, 2022 Report Share Posted July 21, 2022 "What is the best 16610 at the moment?" Aka 'Who has the best sub?" "The 16610 is no longer the hot thing in town as it has been replaced by that goofy new tuna can style ceramic insert model 116610 - the in thing amongst peoples with more cash than $#*#$." Yep, true. A fact of life in the wacky watch world. I used to say the last 'real' rolex watches made were the four digit acrylic models but I have taken a shine to the 16610 for some reason. They are modern classics. "If I really wanted to spend the money, I would buy a star supply case and as many parts that come with the case at star supply as this case is designed as an aftermarket replacement for the 16610 which should fit the genuine 3135 movement!" Very Good advice if you want to start at the top of the 16610 case heap and avoid many hassles. The ST cases are less $$ than 'Vnam' type cases and are more consistent in quality but they have no numbers or letters. Iirc an ETA 2824 will also fit in an ST case with a spacer like mentioned above. You may also need an hour wheel, canon pinion etc. set from an ETA 2836 to give more hand clearance between the dial and hands...I may be wrong about that but it used to be more or less standard with 28xx ETAs in 5512/13 etc. projects. Also, DW overlays are more difficult to install on an ETA 2824 than a 2836, there is not much room and sometimes the DW rubs the dial . The 16610 might be Ok with lower hands, I really do not know and maybe someone who has put a 16610 with ETA 2824 project together will chime in. Anyway, my 'better' 16610 replicas have ETA 2836 movements and the lower tier models have 'A21' Miyota clones or Seagull ST6 and the space between the hands and dial looks Ok to me. Never had one with an ETA 2824 that I can remember. If you are willing to forgo the oem type of crystal mounting, there were quite a few good '16610' watches made from around 2003 through 2015 (+/-) that look very good, but most have 'spring wire' bezels and crystals pressed into a plastic gasket. Nothing wrong with that but an oem or aftmkt oem spec crystal will not fit. Then there are F520117 'noobmariners' but that is another story. One of mine is 11 posts down... Rolex Wristies thread - Page 139 - The Rolex Area - RWG Imho... First thing is to is decide on a 'do it yourself' project or a 'buy it now' complete watch. Next, decide on how much you want to spend. Double it. (Ha!) Then go on the 'net and look at dozens of genuine 16610 watches and compare them with '16610' replicas and look for obvious flaws... 'rat ears' (too small) crown guards, 'fat legs' etc. All the while remembering rule #1: "As you know the problems we are all facing In this hobby is the availability of quality parts!" "I have been looking for one since TC went West or East!' Maybe TC went South. Ha! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_zijn Posted July 22, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 Thanks for the info Timelord and Automatico! I will definitely look in to it. Looks like it is going to be a bigger build than just swap a bezel and a crown. Luckily I find hunting for parts just as much fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alligoat Posted July 22, 2022 Report Share Posted July 22, 2022 The ARF 16610 is a decent place to start- hope it's still available. https://trustytimewatch88.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=22886 TC is gone, JF is gone and maybe morphed into ARF, but that's about all there is today. The Startime supply 16610 replacement case hasn't been seen in a while, so I guess it's gone. https://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Session_ID=1610bc009d0487e9e0bcab63d8a20f30&Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1_07_1D_Rolex_Case&Product_Code= It looks like the Trusty ARF has a SH3135 movement- I didn't do well with mine- bad autowind assembly, and weak date change and decent parts to fix was going to be too expensive. I opted instead to get a VR3135 for around $160 and it's doing fine. The BP 16610 may still be around and is a cheaper alternative- it looks ok but has a non-gen bezel assembly. TC went to Ginault and a few people have used the Ginault case as a basis to build a 16610 but that's a more expensive path to take- could easily run $1500-2000 or more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timelord Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 On 7/22/2022 at 2:00 AM, automatico said: Then there are F520117 'noobmariners' agree 100%! I have owned a 16610 replica form just about every know source but the F520117 takes the prize in my opinion! When I sold them all off this one was an easy decision to keep! Interestingly it was priced in the same league as the other not so accurate basic eta replicas! I could not justify paying 5 times more for a Fong case with further mods when this was on offer! The only criticism I have with these F520117 is with the crystal and bezel on a technical issue and not accuracy representation! Drop one on the floor and if the crystal breaks, it’s ready for the disposal bin as no mineral crystal will fit due to the weird size! If you want to remove bezel, again you run the risk of it becoming disposal! Maybe it was designed like this on purpose as they were so affordable to replace! Who knows? If these flaws were addressed prior to production, then it would have been the 99% best 16610! No replica can be perfect, but if it had a retaining ring for the correct size Crystal, then I would pay Fong prices for it as most other £5000 brand watches are really no better and it is all in the mind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtools Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 Rafflesdials has a 16610 case with lug holes. I don't know how accurate it is, but at $56, it might be worth buying to find out. https://rafflesdials.com/rolex-signed-16610-16800-vintage-style-of-40mm-stainless-steel-submariner-watch-case-with-flat-sapphire-crystal-black-click-bezel-and-20mm-lugs-have-drilled-through-holes-fit-eta-2824-or-nh35-movement-and-dial-in-28-0-29-0mm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
automatico Posted July 23, 2022 Report Share Posted July 23, 2022 "If you want to remove bezel, again you run the risk of it becoming disposal! Maybe it was designed like this on purpose as they were so affordable to replace! Who knows? If these flaws were addressed prior to production, then it would have been the 99% best 16610!" Regarding the F520117...imho you are 100% correct. Noobmariner replica? - The Rolex Area - RWG I first tried the standard method of removing the 'spring wire' bezel on a noob F520117 by forcing a thin blade between the case and bezel, then trying to pull it off but no go. It felt like something was going to bend, break, bleed, or blister so I resorted to the method in the link above. Another example of what can go wrong with these projects: Here is the mess I recently got into on my 'dewokked' D320840 '16610' a few days ago. It is not a noobmariner type case and also has a spring wire bezel but the fit is not nearly as precise as a noobmariner and it can be removed using a blade between the case and bezel. To remount it, you just make sure the spring wire is in the groove in the bezel and the spring/click are in place, then place the bezel on the case and slowly turn it while pushing down on the bezel a little bit. Sometimes they will just snap on without turning the bezel, so try that first. The flimsy 'aluminum foil' bezel insert on the D320840 case was stuck in the bez with double sided tape and looked super ratty. Since I had already 'dewokked' the case by cutting a little bit of the 'wok' out of the dial opening leaving the inside edge at a 90 degree angle to the dial, what the heck, why not change the bez insert too? Nothin' to it. It turned out to be another headache. As usual... 1...The new insert was a bit too small OD and I glued it into the bez with Gorilla glue anyway just to get 'er done. Ok, finished. But Noooo! 2...The bez mounted a hair too high because the bottom inner edge of the insert rubbed the top edge of the case neck where the crystal gasket is mounted. I discovered this the next day after (!) the glue had hardened so I had to remove the spring wire bezel (again!!) and carefully pry the insert out of the bez. Next, I had to clean all the glue off both surfaces. Lucky for me the bezel was jacked up a hair or two by the case neck leaving a bit of space between the bez and insert around the inside edge. Finally got all the glue cleaned off so I decided to expand the OD of the bez insert a little bit by turning it upside down on the tapered neck of an old green glass Coke bottle (special tool!) and pushed it down a hair using a three inch long section of plastic plumbing pipe with a relief cut in the end about 1mm bigger than the bez OD to center it. This is 'standard watch hacker practice', aka an old trick but no one admits to it. A 'Rolex Certified' watch mechanic friend at a rolex AD showed me this trick many years ago. 3...The bez insert broke (!) where the 'pip hole' was...but it expanded. 4...Dug through my extensive collection (3 or 4) of 16610 type bez inserts and found ONE heavy duty 'slickback' insert (not aluminum foil) that would fit. 'Slickback' = smooth underside, no ridges/steps. 5...Laid the insert in the bez and snapped it over the case neck. No glue this time, I wised up. 6...It was 'jacked up on the case neck same as the first one. 7...Repeat step #2...with caution, not abandon. Skip step 3. 8... Put the bezel in a lathe and thin the insert seat area down a tiny bit to lower the insert so more of the crystal would show above the bezel. The tapered top edge of the crystal should rise above the bezel insert. 9...Glue it, clamp it, wait another 24 hours. Clamped in an old 'BB' crystal press (with bezel and insert on the watch) using Gorilla glue this time instead of epoxy with three 1/2 inch wide strips of motorcycle inner tube rubber bands to apply clamping force to an aluminum press cup that fitted down over the outer edge of the insert and inside the rotating bezel outer wall using thick clear plastic wrap between the press cup and bezel insert to protect it. 10...Success! More or less. After three days. Edited 7-24, I left step 8 out when first posted. All this makes me want to go back to my other hobby... Looking out the window. Artist: D J Rogers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
horologist Posted July 26, 2022 Report Share Posted July 26, 2022 On 7/24/2022 at 2:26 AM, oldtools said: Rafflesdials has a 16610 case with lug holes. I don't know how accurate it is, but at $56, it might be worth buying to find out. https://rafflesdials.com/rolex-signed-16610-16800-vintage-style-of-40mm-stainless-steel-submariner-watch-case-with-flat-sapphire-crystal-black-click-bezel-and-20mm-lugs-have-drilled-through-holes-fit-eta-2824-or-nh35-movement-and-dial-in-28-0-29-0mm/ That is the best news I have read since the new ceramic replica replaced it! For that price, who cares how accurate it is as one can still get some modifications done to it! What is important is that we can still purchase one if needed at a moments notice! How long will they be available is anyones guess!. Hey beggars can’t be choosers! I bought my last one from Yuki to fit an eta 2836 about 3 years ago,! The only gripe I have is that it never came with a bracelet and none of the bracelets I have fit the lug holes! Therefore before you buy it would be wise to ask raffles if he has the matching bracelet if you want a bracelet! thanks for sharing! i On 7/24/2022 at 7:06 AM, automatico said: All this makes me want to go back to my other hobby... Looking out the window. Artist: D J Rogers So would I! OMG what a nightmare! It definitely becomes a very fine line between pleasure and pain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark_zijn Posted July 26, 2022 Author Report Share Posted July 26, 2022 Thank for the info! I will look into all of the ideas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted July 30, 2022 Report Share Posted July 30, 2022 I'd be happy with a good 14060! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pompompurin Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 The latest batch of arf 16610 is amazing and IMO much better than a TC v7x overall. They improved the stock hands significantly which looks much closer to gen now. However, a movement swap to VR3135 is recommended to swap out the stock ARF SH3135 movements' bold/wrong fonts (and there is no guarantee that the stock SH3135's calendar plate can take gen-spec or better date discs after modification) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 5 hours ago, pompompurin said: The latest batch of arf 16610 is amazing and IMO much better than a TC v7x overall. They improved the stock hands significantly which looks much closer to gen now. However, a movement swap to VR3135 is recommended to swap out the stock ARF SH3135 movements' bold/wrong fonts (and there is no guarantee that the stock SH3135's calendar plate can take gen-spec or better date discs after modification) I just ordered this... what do you guys think? https://trustytimewatch88.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=22886 I'd like to turn it into a 14060, but not sure where to get a dial and crystal, and if they will fit properly... I'm aslo wondering if this is meant to be a later model, but the lume is green and the lugs aren't drilled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watcher Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 I just ordered this... what do you guys think? https://trustytimewatch88.io/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_7&products_id=22886 I'd like to turn it into a 14060, but not sure where to get a dial and crystal, and if they will fit properly... I'm aslo wondering if this is meant to be a later model, but the lume is green and the lugs aren't drilled Dimensions of the 14060 and 16610 are not the same unfortunately. 14060 uses the Sd 16600 insert with a smaller internal diameter so you would have to just remove the cyclops from 295 crystal rather than fit the correct 285/6 crystal. The dial might also be too small. Someone else who might have tried this may comment too. Let us know if you try with any success as many would like to create a nice 14060!Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 1 hour ago, watcher said: Dimensions of the 14060 and 16610 are not the same unfortunately. 14060 uses the Sd 16600 insert with a smaller internal diameter so you would have to just remove the cyclops from 295 crystal rather than fit the correct 285/6 crystal. The dial might also be too small. Someone else who might have tried this may comment too. Let us know if you try with any success as many would like to create a nice 14060! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Oh! Thanks for that... This amateur didn't know they were a different watch alltogether, thought just a dial/crystal swap would be enough. Is the case and movement different between the two also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tribal Posted July 31, 2022 Report Share Posted July 31, 2022 Dial and Crystal is smaller on a No Date, so not a easy swap of parts!Gesendet von meinem 2107113SG mit Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prdubis Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 Any info to improve spring wire on ARF 16610? The bezel doesn't click like genuine does, it sounds and feels cheap. I have bought replacement spring wires from wholesaleoutlet, but did not swap them yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 1 hour ago, prdubis said: Any info to improve spring wire on ARF 16610? The bezel doesn't click like genuine does, it sounds and feels cheap. I have bought replacement spring wires from wholesaleoutlet, but did not swap them yet. I hope mine is not [censored]... It's a $500 watch FFS! 😮 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prdubis Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 I have a LN and a LV, both click the same. They don't have this low-pitched, strong click like genuine. Keep us updated about your, maybe it has been improved since last year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrGran Posted August 1, 2022 Report Share Posted August 1, 2022 43 minutes ago, swdivad said: I hope mine is not [censored]... It's a $500 watch FFS! 😮 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prdubis Posted August 27, 2022 Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 On 8/1/2022 at 2:14 PM, swdivad said: I hope mine is not [censored]... It's a $500 watch FFS! 😮 Hi mate, Did you receive your watch? Any review or comments on the bezel click and datewheel? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted August 27, 2022 Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 28 minutes ago, prdubis said: Hi mate, Did you receive your watch? Any review or comments on the bezel click and datewheel? Thanks No... I needed to reject it because of the pretty bad date font... Instead, I topped the funds up a bit more for an Aqua Terra 150m, which looks to be a much better watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prdubis Posted August 27, 2022 Report Share Posted August 27, 2022 You're right, I had to reject several watches because of bold date wheel.Mines are not that bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swdivad Posted September 2, 2022 Report Share Posted September 2, 2022 On 8/27/2022 at 8:31 PM, prdubis said: You're right, I had to reject several watches because of bold date wheel. Mines are not that bad... Yours are MUCH better than the QCs I received: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornerstone Posted September 2, 2022 Report Share Posted September 2, 2022 1 hour ago, swdivad said: Yours are MUCH better than the QCs I received: Ouch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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