Dealer Descriptions

KB · February 15, 2007

I don't know if grave is a good description but I will venture that it one of the most important topics we have had on this board and as such needs the same dedicated input that was given to the 'Little white lies' thread, then we will be on the way to the solution.

Ken

Usil · February 15, 2007

This is one discussion I do not want to see end. Progress is being made and it will help everyone including the dealers.

Usil

Defender110 · February 15, 2007

for all the negative posts paul over at womart gets i happen to like his descriptions best... seems to be more thorough and more accurate than some of the other dealers listings without any BS to muddy the listing

with him:

ETA = gen swiss

ASIAN = COPY

sapphire = sapphire

mineral = mineral crystal

Lyndonville · February 15, 2007

True, and I agree with Andrew on this. Also, I think it would be unfair to ask Andrew to completely rework his web page in order to attempt to comply with your set of standards. Andrew has done a superlative job in describing what he has available. Also, if you have any questions of him he typically responds very quickly. The problem I see with this is some of the dealers only show photos, like in Photobucket, et al. What's that tell you about the watch is all you have is a photo? Nothing. If you want more info then you're forced to write the seller. And, to be honest about it that's a waste of time for the buyer, to say nothing of the seller. Not only do we end up having to write the dealer, but, sometimes we receive vague responses. If I ask for specifics I want specifics back, nothing less than that. Of course most of these emails back and forth wouldn't be necessary if the dealer listed the product, the price, and a full and accurate description of what it is you're looking at. And, again, Andrew does a superlative job of that, while other dealers on this list fall far short.

My 2-cents.

Tim

Hi Admin

Having 1000+ products on a webstore and needing to change everything is absolutely not a viable option. What I can best do is to put a Watch FAQ describing the terms I had used. In that way, I will think it will serve best purposes. Thanks!

Happy CNY... I am off for a break!

Andrew

February 15, 2007

Not every dealer wishes to put his head above the parapet and risk exposure to those who would seek to shut them down...fine and imprison them.......let's not forget this is still an ILLEGAL industry.........hence the photobucket sites.....no information...no prices....means no evidence of selling.....!

silix · February 15, 2007

Dear members and dealers,

As has been mentioned on the board several times already, we in admin have the feeling that it might be time for a new standardised offers policy. We believe that this should be created by the members, in conjunction with input from our dealers. This new policy is intended to be voluntary for all dealers but those who decide to participate could be specially identified as an 'Upgraded' dealer or similar in order that members can readily see who has signed up for the policy.

The idea is that we create some standard terms and descriptions as well as some grading of quality of standards which an offer has to contain. As we are only moderating this forum we would like to ask you all to work something out with us together. The input of all dealers is especially welcome!We are aware that some dealer descriptions already go to great lengths to describe products, however others can be vague and in some cases there is misleading information as has been discovered recently.

To get us started in the right direction the first idea is to create 6 different categories (those considered to be the most important, in order for a prospective buyer to properly assess the value of the offered watch) and these would be:
1. Movement
2. Crystal
3. Lume
4. Case (is it compatible with genuine parts?)
5. Functions
6. Bracelet/strap

Aside from the terms of the offer and the general description of the watch, we feel that it's important that the standards of the core categories above must be contained in the offer.

As said all input is welcome in an effort to take the board a step forward and to avoid a reoccurence of the recent issue on the 2892 movement!

To complete the new voluntary offer rules we also think that the dealers who are willing to accept the rules onboard should be encouraged to deliver the same minimum criteria on their own webshops.

We recognize that as there are a lot of items on the webshops, the dealers who sign up for the policy would require a reasonable time to update this information.

As said this is an idea intended to make selling and buying for both parties easier. The dealers would have fewer complaints and the buyers would hopefully know exactly what they'll get for their money. As this will benefit both parties (dealer and member) we expect that the members and dealers could work hand in hand on this.

Your admin team are here to look after this site, we don't see our role to be one of policing dealers' advertising or statements. It will be in the best interests of the membership to establish an acceptable code, to both the members and dealer:, after all, the dealers are members here as well!
Please contribute any thoughts and/or ideas in this thread.

The RWG Team

Great step towards the right direction. Count us in. We will be the first ones to sign it.

silix · February 15, 2007

FAQ is good, but this does not qualify as an "UPGRADED" dealer category.....UPGRADED means they went out of their way and took the time to update their website. If this is time consuming for the dealers (I know its not impossible) and they will stick with the FAQ Option, then may I suggest that any new models they add should have the new standardized description and should be annotated as such!

Yes, I agree. We will abide by the clear description on the new listing, and gradually clean up all the older potential misleading terms. Yes, it takes time, but it is doable.

silix · February 15, 2007

<html>

<head>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en-us">
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=windows-1252">
<meta name="GENERATOR" content="Microsoft FrontPage 4.0">
<meta name="ProgId" content="FrontPage.Editor.Document">
<title>New Page 1</title>
</head>

<body bgcolor="#C0C0C0">



 



REF No:                                          
001
MAKE:                                           
TAG HEUR 
MODEL:                                         
MONACO 'STEVE McQUEEN'
MATERIAL:                                    
440 GRADE STAINLESS STEEL
DIMENSIONS:                                
40mm....X.......40mm......X....14mm
DIAL COLOUR:                               
BLUE WITH WHITE SUBDIALS
MOVEMENT:                                  
ASIAN AUTOMATIC
No OF JEWELS:                            
21
SWEEP SECOND HAND:               
YES
HACK FACILITY:                           
YES
SCREW DOWN CROWN:               
NO
FRONT GLASS:                           
MINERAL GLASS
CASEBACK:                                 
SOLID / FULLY ENGRAVED
BRACELET:                                  
STAINLESS STEEL  
LOGOS:                                       
ON CLASP AND CROWN
CLASP:                                        
DOUBLE FOLD DEPLOYANT
DATE INDICATOR:                        
YES @ 6 POSITION
SUB DIALS:                                  FUNCTIONAL
AS DAY DATE REGISTERS / NOT AS FULL STOPWATCH REGISTERS
<hr size="10">
 
QUANTITY AVAILABLE:                
1x ONLY
PRICE:                                           
$99.00 
PAYPAL FEES:                                FREE
SHIPPING:                                     
$10.00
<hr size="10">

No, it is not the format we need to standradize here, it is the worrds we use, clear not misleading, certainly not deceitful. If we talk too much on the format, we are deviating from the goal. But I have to say, I like ur format. :-)

fitmic · February 15, 2007

Great Silix!!!

Thor · February 15, 2007

Great to hear Angel and Jay (Silix) that you like the idea and would join the party :thumbsupsmileyanim:

If i have understood Neil right, he's willing to share his sheet with everyone interested... the sheet he would sent out should be one where only the description must be filled in...

dachshund · February 15, 2007

Please forgive me if I seem to come on negative about this, I fully agree some standard of imformation should be agreed upon, if for no other reason, it makes comparing goods of one vender to another much easier, but the real jest of the matter is accurate imformation, regardless of what format it is in.

A FAQ section is just a copout and a way to continue to use hype in advertising, yet be able to claim no fault as you should have read the fine print.

Straight and to the point, I personally don't care, and can't see why other members would care, if it is a lot of trouble for the dealers to relist the correct imformation, they are the one's that screwed it up to begin with, not the members. That said, I have no objection in giving the dealers a reasonable timeframe to make the necessary changes, as stated earlier, change the most popular models immediately, and follow up with the other models in a timely manner. If these changes are not made throughout the dealers listing we have solved nothing, confusinion still exists on the older or less popular models, hence we still have more of the same, just a different buyer or a different watch this time.

I know it is a lot of trouble to make all of the necessary changes, but the dealers need to understand that however honest the are, at best it certainly casts a shadow when it appears to the members that inaccurate imformation has been intentially provided.

Simply and ACCURATLEY tell us up front what the watch is, accurate case material, accurate movement description, accurate crystal material, accurate etc, accurate etc, etc in whatever format you choose, and all of a sudden problems will no longer exist.

archibald · February 15, 2007

Another vote for scrapping the letters E, T and A from any movement not made by ETA. Cuts it too close. On the other had I see no need to complicate things with trying to say which continent a genuine ETA movement is made on, since it shouldn't matter if we assume ETA has standardized QC.

Also, members selling their watches in the offer section should have no problem adhering to the same format, especially since several models are being released in two versions--e.g. Asian 770and Swiss 7750; ETA w/ AR, etc and an Asia21J w/o AR, for example.

spa · February 16, 2007

- There are sellers who sell watches that are different in details compared to those on their pictures.

- There are also sellers who give detailed descriptions for their watches but you may receive a watch that fails to comply with one or more details of its initial description.

- There are also sellers who never update the pictures of many models they sell, although the factories make these watches somewhat in a different way than they had done it in the past (at the time that the seller posted the pictures of the specified watch).

What can you do for this?

4.3k · February 16, 2007

My opinion is that we do not have any right to ask them change their websites the way we want.

The FAQ is ok with me..

Rep buisness is an illegal buisnes and people want to stay under the radar. Dealers exposed for easiest transactions.. And they pay the price. Dealers are now quiting.. Others (like King) have only a photo (or a photobucket) and 1-2 details... Details are nice but they are, and there will be more important issues in this hobby.. See the forest, not the tree.

Thor · February 16, 2007

My opinion is that we do not have any right to ask them change their websites the way we want.
The FAQ is ok with me..

Rep buisness is an illegal buisnes and people want to stay under the radar. Dealers exposed for easiest transactions.. And they pay the price. Dealers are now quiting.. Others (like King) have only a photo (or a photobucket) and 1-2 details... Details are nice but they are, and there will be more important issues in this hobby.. See the forest, not the tree.

That Ediee and River quit their job has nothing to do with this (River already told me already in november that he'll quit from dealing) - the dealers won't be force to change anything - if they decide so they'll just stay regular dealers as at the moment. The ones who like to sign the voluntary contarct should change their websites too in my point of view - the membership doesn't have a benefit if a dealer is listed as "special or whatever dealer" and only post one or two offers he which fullfill the rules but the mainitems he is selling via his site are independent from the rule...

My 2cts

4.3k · February 16, 2007

That Ediee and River quit their job has nothing to do with this (River already told me already in november that he'll quit from dealing) - the dealers won't be force to change anything - if they decide so they'll just stay regular dealers as at the moment. The ones who like to sign the voluntary contarct should change their websites too in my point of view - the membership doesn't have a benefit if a dealer is listed as "special or whatever dealer" and only post one or two offers he which fullfill the rules but the mainitems he is selling via his site are independent from the rule...

My 2cts

And what if only Sash, TTK and Silix sign the contract?

We will ask the others dealers to leave because they will not follow our rules?

jfreeman420 · February 16, 2007

And what if only Sash, TTK and Silix sign the contract?

We will ask the others dealers to leave because they will not follow our rules?

I was going to stay out of this, but I feel like adding my 2 cents, hell it's friday.

First of all I don't think this standardized grading will ever work. Most of the dealers are dropshippers and never see the product, thus many sub par watches will slip through the cracks anyway. Most collectors (i believe, correct me if im wrong) never open the back of their watch. With the shortage of ETA's soon there will not be a choice of swiss, also with the chinese technology you will soon not know the difference. I believe most of our dealers try to be as honest as they can, but there is always 3 sides to a salesman's story (theirs, the customers', and the truth). This little thing of ours is not walmart, target, or sears. It is an underground, illeagal hobby. I treat the dealers like restaurants, if I have just one bad meal I don't eat there again.

Caveat Emptor.

Chronus · February 16, 2007

This little thing of ours

= La Cosa Nostra

Edited February 16, 2007 by Chronus

Pugwash · February 16, 2007

First of all I don't think this standardized grading will ever work. Most of the dealers are dropshippers and never see the product, thus many sub par watches will slip through the cracks anyway.

Anyone not wanting to participate is perfectly welcome to remain a regular uncertified dealer. Only those who pass the grade will be upgraded to 'ultimate dealers' or whatever.

As for drop-shippers, and this is very important, anyone drop-shipping with no control over the quality shouldn't be able to get the top grade of certification as they're clearly not deserving of it. What is so worthy of recognition of someone who doesn't even care what one of his underlings ships you?

I applaud those dealers (TTK, Silix, Sash) that have thrown their hat into the ring and I'm also glad Andrew has come in and commented. It shows he intends to step up to the plate as well.

See? This is how a five-star dealer system should be done.

Pugwash · February 16, 2007

This new policy is intended to be voluntary for all dealers but those who decide to participate could be specially identified as an 'Upgraded' dealer or similar in order that members can readily see who has signed up for the policy.

See? No tales of running dealers out of town. It's a proposed voluntary scheme.

sssurfer · February 17, 2007

First of all, :clap2: to this!

Then --

I seem to recognize this is a two-sided problem:

1 - The terms (or even the format) to be used. Here the discussion goes about 'ETA', 'sapphire', '1:1', etc.

2 - Rating the dealers according to what extent they adhere to the rules of point 1. Here the discussion goes about if they make a full upgrade of their websites, or 'just' add a FAQ section, or 'just' follow the rules in their advertisements here.

Here I'll focus on point 2 only.

What about a 'star rating system' this way?

1 star: no compliance with the point-1-rules ('just' a honest, customer-caring dealer -- else he would not stay here along, given the feedback system).

2 stars: only a website FAQ section in compliance with the rules.

3 stars: advertisements here on RWG in compliance, but a generally non-complying website (no complying FAQs).

4 stars: advertisements here on RWG in compliance, AND a complying FAQ section in an otherwise generally non-complying website.

5 stars: Full compliance with the rules, whether the dealer has a website or not (please note that this does not penalize dealers that do not have a website, but that are fully complying with the rules, e.g. TTK).

I also see no problem in the fact that a 3-star or 4-star dealer may post advertisements on just a few watches here. Once the system is running, he will likely get more sells from those trustful advertisements so he will get encouraged to post more offers here.

Currently, offers are going down on RWG because there is no difference between what a member can see on RWG and what he can see on the dealer's website. Under the system running, there will be a difference (naturally unless the dealer's website is fully complying too, i.e. the dealer already is a 5-star one). Here I see a positive encouragement any way: either to post advertisements here, and/or to upgrade his site to 5 stars.

luisik · February 17, 2007

Well, I use a kind of own code in the way I describe my own purchases. I hope it may be of use for some of you or, at least, to contribute to have someone's good ideas:

Please, note this is only my personal way to understand my watches. I am not trying to convince anybody.

It looks like this:

DEALER.doc

The parameters I sue to value are like this:

MOVEMENT:

•XX Jewels

oAutomatic ETA XXXX

oAutomatic Asian XXXX

oQuartz ETA XXXX

oQuartz Asian XXXX

oManual Swiss

oManual Asian

•Functions:

oChronograph

•Fully Functional

•Faux

oDay

oDate

oMonth

oYear

oGMT

oAlarm

oPower Reserve

•Fully Functional

•Faux

•Hack Facilitie

oYes

oNo

CASE DIAMETER:

•XX.X mm

THICKNESS:

•XX.X mm

DIAL:

•Color

oFinish :

•Guilloched

•Checkered

•Markers

oNumeral

oRoman

oStick

•Subdials

oFunction

oColor

oFinish:

•Ring

•Flat

•Concentric

LUMED:

•No

•Yes

oStandard

oSuperluminova

oTritium

CASE MATERIAL:

•Stainless Steel XXXX

oPolished

oBrushed

oXXk Gold Plated XXXX mm.

oPVD

•Titanium

•Solid Gold XXk

BRACELET:

•Synthetic Leather Strap XXX Color

•Genuine Leather Strap XXX Color

•Stainless Steel XXXX

•XXk Gold Plated XXXX mm

•Two Tone Stainless Steel XXXX + XXk Gold Plated XXXX mm

•Solid Gold XXk

•Rubber XXX Color

CLASP:

•Deployant

•Double Deployant

•Buckle

FRONT GLASS:

•Sapphire

•Mineral

•Plexiglass

AR COATING:

•No

•Yes

oSingle side

oDouble sided

CASE BACK:

•Solid Case Back

o detailed engraving

•Display

oSapphire

oMineral

BEZEL:

•Color / inserts

oUni-directional xxx clicks

oBi-directional xxx clicks

SERVICED:

•No

•Yes

oBasic

Watch regulated

Water resistance Tested

Visually inspected (no visual damages)

oFull

Movement cleaned

Movement reassambled and lubricated

AutonomyTested

Watch regulated

Water resistance Tested

Visually inspected (no visual damages)

OTHER REMARKS:

(whatever extra info is wanted to be placed)

•1:1 case.

•Serial numbers engraved.

•Better hancrafted than genuine.

•Lifetime guaranteed.

•Box and Certificate included.

•Pamela Anderson’s private dinner if ordering now.

•Bla, bla, bla…

Chronus · February 17, 2007

SERVICED:

•Yes
oFull
Movement reassambled and lubricated

You missed out snake oil type... swiss or asian ?

luisik · February 17, 2007

fotoman · February 18, 2007

other than mis labeling of movements, i just don't see that this situationi is THAT BAD. I don't see a need to cause major issues, put a grading and recomendation system in place.

Maybe an explination that we recomend using the following information in a sticky or something. Let the customer decide for themselves how they want the info presented - I mean, [censored], with all the sites now available, and the watches offered, its not like they have to go searching that hard.

Just think of where we were a year ago. you were lucky to be able to ask 3 questions about a watch unless you were an established buyer. If you asked crystal, movement and somet hing else, I was lucky to get 2 questions answered

We have unprecidented descriptions - are some of them a little shadY? well not anymore than the whole business is shady.

If you want to offer a template, fine - if you want to say that the forum Recomends using this template fine but - don't start grading dealers

What if some of their watches are good but not others. -

Don't Endorse - we dont' endorse now we have a limited number of spots and we let people fill them. If they screw up, we kick them out and brign in someone new. the membership feels comfortable in recomending any of them. But - the site does not really endorse, we simply only make room for a few vendors.

This may end up working, but, seriously what are we getting out of this, - no more light ar, no more synthetic saphire - - Big F-en deal

You want to know the real secret - Go to josh's site and look at what he puts in Red or Blue writing. That is something special about the watch - like "now with blue screws" - well, then you know to look at other watches and say oh, look, it doesn't have the blue screws.

I think a template is fine, i think using a template for the offers section is fine, i think making it well known to the membership that the board highly recomends using this template sas we believe that is the best way to get the best information about the watch - and let the members decide if they want to use a dealer with the template or not.

I'm not sure who [censored] in my cornflakes today

oh wait, i threw my back out last night, i might be a little hostile because of the intense pain - so, i don't mean to be hostile

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