automatico

"I remember reading that the bezel was spring and not gen-spec, but could that and the inner bezel be fixed by machining parts (ala JMB)? He machined a couple of gen-spec bezel retaining rings for me, so if that could be solved that way, that would be OK." You would need an inner bezel made to accomodate a gen spec crystal and modify the rotating bezel to snap down over it, or make a gen spec inner bezel and use a gen spec rotating bezel. I thought about making a new inner bezel that would work with a gen spec crystal and just use the spring wire rotating bezel that came with the case. On spring wire bezels...you have to allow enough space between the inner bezel and rotating bezel for the spring wire to slide by so you can r/r the rotating bezel or it will turn out like a 'noobmariner' and bend the rotating bezel when you try to pry it off because there is not enough room for the spring wire to pass between the bezels. "I can't really tell from the pictures he sent whether the sides are going to be rounded. I suppose that given enough metal, I could de-round and fix them, similar to the re-machining you have to do on Josh 1655 cases." You could sand the sides flat and repolish them but it would take a while. "I sort of assumed that smaller size spring bars would be stock. Drilling them out is no big deal. Neat on the gen tube screwing in out of box. By no groove for the tube gasket, you mean the crystal gasket that goes under the bezel retaining ring? I wonder if that could also be fixed." There is a plastic gasket that goes between the case tube and case that fits in a groove cut in the case...there is no groove cut in these cases. There is no groove under the crystal retaining bezel on my case...it is like the one in your pics. "So far, to me, it sounds promising, except for the gen dial not fitting. That is the one problem, as I know of no way to add steel to a case." This is a big problem. The best/cheapest fix is to find an oversize 5513 dial. "I asked for different dimensions on the inner rehaut, so we'll see if he can help in that regard. Like you said, automatico, it looks too good to leave alone." Yeah, they do look good!

"sorry to say - i have the same case - totally wrong - no gen or aftermarket part fit ....no 1:1 construction ..." I have one of these cases too. The dial seat is cut for a 1680 dial...a genuine spec 5513 dial falls through the front of the case. The inner bezel that holds the crystal to the case is not genuine spec...the ID is too big so a genuine spec crystal will not fit. The rotating bezel is held on the inner bezel by a spring wire...not snap on like genuine. The sides of the case on mine are rounded like a DJ...not flat like a submariner. The springbar holes are drilled for smaller springbars...you will have to drill them out for submariner springbars. The case tube and crown are not genuine spec...but a genuine spec case tube will screw into the case. One more litttle catch...there is no groove cut in the case for a genuine spec case tube gasket. It sure looks good though. I'm gonna mount it in my trophy case full of lost causes. I have a 1520 and genuine spec 5513 dial, but since the dial is a no-go, I thought about maybe putting an aft/mkt 1680 dial on it with a section of date wheel (28!) cemented to the underside of the dial. ...or I could cement the hands on it too and save the 1520. Slow set rule #1...The date is usually wrong. Slow set rule #2...If the date is right...the canon pinion is usually worn out.

"I am really interested but if it does not take gen parts then where would one get parts for it? I do not want a mystery movement issue." I doubt many genuine parts will fit (if any) but that really does not matter a whole lot as genuine parts are getting very hard to find and too expen$ive anyway. If this movement turns out to be good enough to be worth the trouble and expense of buying a complete watch just to get the movement...I see it as worth more (to me anyway) for making Frankenstein DJ, OPD etc with genuine cases/dials than in outright replicas. After all, swissetas/etaclones are pretty good for replicas and parts are easy to get. Besides...you can't see through the caseback. So...what is really needed is only the 3135 superclone movement imho. Otoh, the YM with the superclone 3135 is pretty nice so if I wanted a real nice YM, I might spend an extra $100 for the superclone 3135 (also because a 'swisseta' might not be swiss made). ...but nice 'swisseta' powered submariners are everywhere. Matter of fact, my nice 'swisseta' submariner filled up on me again yesterday while washing my hands/arms. I pitched it in the junk box and put my 'old reliable' (14 yo quartz!) TAG/Heuer back on. Roll call... My genuine TAG/Heuer WK1120 in 14 years = a few 50 cent batteries and gaskets (paid $150 for it 'like new'). Now worth $200 to $300 (+$100+/-). Someone else's genuine 16610 Submariner in 14 years = $1000+ for 'authorized service' (cost about $3500 new). Now worth $3500 to $4000 (-$1000+/-). My nice replica 'swisseta' 16610 submariner in the last few months = numerous drownings (paid $250). Now worth $0 to $50 (-$200+/-).

Watch material supply houses (at least in the USA) have a large selection of unsigned replacement 'butterfly' clasp assemblies. They might not match what is on the watch exactly but they will make the watch wearable and are usually higher quality than what comes on replica watches. I have replaced dozens of these clasps over the years with good results. They are ordered by: Overall length. Overall width of the assembly. Width of the blades not counting push buttons. Width in mm of the ends where the clasp attaches to the bracelet. Friction latch models without pushbuttons are also available. On ceramic bracelets, you have to be very careful when r/r the pins that hold the clasp to the bracelet. If you need to drive the pins out...place the metal part of the bracelet on something solid so it will not break away from the bracelet. To see some examples, go to startimesupply.com. Click on watch bands. Go to band clasps. Click on deployant They cost $10 or $12 each.

I have a DW 5513 case with the opposite problem...a genuine spec 5513 dial falls through the case because the case is cut for a 1680 dial. If it ain't one damn thing wrong, it's two.

"from what i see, the tudor cyclops appears to be set closer the crystal edge and toward the right side of the date window...rolex is more toward the left of the window" The center of the date window on a rolex is about 9mm off the dial center and an Eta tudor is about 10mm off center. Far as I know all rolex 1530 base date movements use the same datewheels with the same offset. All 1530 base no date and date dials should interchange. Calendar spacer rings may be different. Center wheel and canon pinions may be different. All 3035/3135 date wheels are the same offset far as I know. All 3035 (date) dials and hands will fit a 3135. No date cal 3000 hands and dial foot location are same as 3035/3135.

"Personally, I like the TW Best version with the lug holes. I have several of them - built like a tank with a case back like a manhole cover." "That is the case I am looking for. Drilled lugs no engraving." I had a couple SD from 'River' about 7 or 8 years ago that might have been 'TWB'...lug holes etc but no engraving between the lugs...and they were built like a tank (a small tank). I had one apart and it had a 3.0mm thick sapphire crystal in it. I do not remember if the helium valve worked or not as it has been so long. They were 14.65mm thick because I wrote it down in my notes. Something else...I fitted one with a used genuine case tube/genuine crown and the case tube hole had to be drilled and tapped in the case. After it was drilled and tapped, the case was very thin where the groove was machined in the case for the gasket. The case tube threads were originally the same size as a 5.3mm case tube.

"It is easy to remove center second hand, but hard to freeze it." It is not hard to freeze the center second hand on '21 jewel' Miyota clones used in some of the Daytonas with running seconds at 6, but you need to be able to work on movements a little bit. This simple 'modification' does not involve complete disassembly of the movement but you will have to take it about half way apart. You will also need to freeze the hands at 3 and 9. Catch 1...since the movement is already half way apart, this is a good time to take it all the way apart and clean and oil it because most of the time they need it. Catch 2...these things are not really worth the cost to pay a 'pro' to work on them. "Would a gen dial even fit the rep case? What about the subdial spacing?" I would not waste a good genuine dial on a replica unless to maybe use it on a Zenith movement in a higher grade replica. If the dial is for the later rolex made movement...you could buy it cheap and sell it keeping in mind that 'genuine rolexfreaks' will usually not buy a dial with any defects at all. Catch 1...I doubt it will fit many replicas. Catch 2...when you cut the dial feet off...you kill the value of the dial. 116520 = rolex made movement

"Hey guys, I just received a replica folded link bracelet to go on my PT 1680. Unfortunately, the endlinks do not work at all, and I had to put on the endlinks that came with the PT sub. Also, the PT spring bars, which are gen-style, do not fit at all in the folded link bracelet, much less in the new endlinks." I got a folded oyster bracelet from 'watchinternational' last week and I pushed a tapered punch through the ends of the bracelet to enlarge them for 2mm springbars. You need to be careful because where the tops of the connecting links are polished to a matte finish, there is a flat spot where the connecting link is very thin. The hoods that came with the bracelet will not accept 2mm springbars so I removed the tubes that were soldered in the hoods and used the hoods without any tubes. This seems to work Ok on most watches depending on how much space there is between the end of the bracelet and the hood. Some of the older C&I etc genuine rivet bracelets are made this way with the hood loose between the case and bracelet...this sometimes wears the numbers away on the case body though.

"pretty thick.. I think its one big problem that all daytonas have to face" Yeah, that plus the fact they are fakes. Ha!

"How is the thickness of your 21j Daytona?" It is 13.75mm thick.

"I've seen some cheap 21J daytona with faux 3,9 and second hands @6 and middle. Meaning big second hand @ middle and sub hand @ 6 move together at the same time. Is it possible to kill big hand @ middle and leave second @6 to make it look like real??" I have converted a few of these by freezing the subdials at 3 and 9 along with the center sweep hand. This will only work with Miyota clone movements...NN 38 and DG 2800 base. I wrote about this operation twice in the past year or two if you can find it in the rolex section. Fyi...the one I wear now and then still runs and has caused no trouble at all. I guess it has a total of 60 or 80 days running since I finished it. I have seen quartz Daytonas and they might not be too bad as the seconds at 6 is small and does draw much attention when it jumps every second. Watcheden has them.

"He was probably driven crazy by all the members who bought reps and complained that they weren't 100% like their gen counterparts. I've always felt that I'd end up committing suicide if I ever got into the rep trade on the forums." I bet you are right. I would guess the only way to survive in the 'case and dial business' is to offer the best cases and dials available at a fair price, make sure they are all the same from batch to batch, and do not fool with running watches. No hit or miss cases/dials = no complaints. What has always amazed me is why no one seems to be able to supply an accurate, quality reproduction vintage rolex case for around $200 or so. If they can sell noobmariners with etaclones for $225 with all of them being high quality and basically identical...how come they can not supply an empty case made the same every time? Here is the real question... Why not just make genuine spec 1680/5513/1655/1665 etc cases that will accept 1570/75/gmt movements/dials and sell them with etaclones installed for $299? Nah, that makes waaay too much sense.

"The movement must be, virtually, disassembled to install the (hack lever)." Here is what it takes... 1...Remove the autowind assembly (2 screws). Slightly wind the watch a few degrees if the aw assembly is hard to pry off. It should not take much pressure at all to pry it off. 2...Loosen the screw on the mainspring barrel slightly because there is no way to hold it later...just barely break it loose. MS barrel screw = the screw on the bigger wheel on the plate. 3...Let the power off the mainspring by: a...Winding the crown a few degrees while pushing the intermediate winding wheel away from the big wheel (ms wheel) on the plate that it runs against. The intermediate wheel is mounted on an eccentric post and is spring loaded to keep it in mesh with the bigger wheel. The screw in the intermediate wheel is LEFT hand thread if you ever decide to remove it. b...While holding the intermediate wheel out of mesh with a screwdriver etc...allow the crown to turn backwards slowly by holding tension on the crown with your fingers in order for the mainspring to unwind. DO NOT allow the movement to 'spin down'. 4...Remove the screw from the big wheel on the plate (the mainspring barrel wheel) in order to remove the ms wheel (gear) and mainspring bridge. 5...Remove the three screws holding the mainspring bridge, remove the bridge...and there it is! 6...Remove or replace the hack lever and put it all back together. Be sure the end of the hack lever goes in the groove in the winding wheel (castle shaped wheel/gear) that the stem passes through. No need to remove the stem during any of this. 7...Tighten the screw on the mainspring barrel wheel after the movement is back together including the aw assembly. The friction in the aw assembly plus the mainspring tension will allow enough resistance to allow the screw to be tightened sufficiently. There is a hole above this screw in the aw assembly plate. Proper 'watchmaker' terms not used...I used common sense terms.

"From reading the above posts it would seem that the early 17j were non-hacking and the later 21j one were hacking." That's probably right. I have a couple Jaques Prevard watches with non hack 17 jewel 2846 from the 1980's. The three new (now nos) 2846 I bought in June 2006 ($79!) are 21 jewel hack. There's not much difference in the life and performance between 17 and 21 jewel models in my experience.

Aftmkt case, bracelet, dial, and hands...figure around $1000 to $1200. Genuine dial...add $1000+. Genuine case tube, crown, gaskets, springbars, and crystal...about $150. A running 1575 is not hard to find...$1000 to $1300. The catches... The movement may need $service$ and a few generally-you-whine $rolexparts$. GMT parts to convert a 1575 to 1575 GMT are nearly impossible to find (and expensive!) Figure around $1000. Meanwhile...your hair turns gray...then white. ... and falls out. Your girlfriend "needs some space" or your wife "goes out with her friends" more and more. Your dog starts biting your leg. How much is it actually worth after it is finished? My guess is probably 50% to 75% of the total cost not counting labor and screw-ups. Why? Because replica cases/dials/bracelets are not worth much on the main line. What you end up with is a 1575 GMT movement. I did it so I know how it goes. My azz is still burning ...and I got good deals on all the parts. A heads up... Watch out for genuine 1575 movements converted to GMT for an additional $200 or $300 with about $10 worth of shoddy non genuine parts. If I was doing it over, I would make one up using cartel parts or buy one already assembled with a slow beat swisseta in it...and buy a good used Air King, OPD, 6694 etc with the $$ I saved.

JimmyGee... My experience with CHS and IcHS... I have owned a few swisseta IcHS 2836-2 powered modern sapphire GMT/Ex II type watches and never had any trouble with them. Had trouble with one 1655 type watch with the basic same movement (but slower beat) and it was easy to repair. Look in the "How To Articles" to read about it. Worked on a couple CHS sapphire Ex II with a sorry adjustable 24 hour hand modification that used a pair of case clamps to hold the 24 hour wheel down. They were J-U-N-K! There are a couple reviews on them around here somewhere. Later versions may be better...or worse, I do not know. Owned a few IcHS DG 3804B powered sapphire GMT/Ex II watches and they were Ok. Iirc, they have adjustable 24 hour hands. Turn the crown one way and the date flips, turn it the other way and the 24 hour hand moves ahead. I had no trouble with them. Also had a few unsigned modified DG 2812 (or whatever they were) with 24 hour hands and they were Ok too but the 24 hour hands were not adjustible. Still have a few left over from 10+ years ago that still run. Only problems I have had with CH/DG Miyota clones is low running reserve. Asian etaclones may have QC problems where swisseta should not. I am not much of a fan of Asian etaclones...too many have gone toes up. My favorite low buck GMT of them all is a swisseta 2836-2 with the simple 24 hour setup...but it is IcHS for sapphire models or plastic QS GMT. The trouble now is...they are not low buck anymore. note: IcHS for late GMT/Ex II = CHS for GMT 1675 and Ex II 1655. Now I have a headache.

I tried to make a few corrections...spacing etc but could not. Since there is no preview feature, typos can not be seen before they are posted. HR should be HR B, a hardness spec. I do not know why it showed up as HR .

"I was just curious how high the difference is between Gens and Reps, if they all had no Trademark on it. Meaning i would like to compare just the Materials, Movement Quality, etc." "Are there huge differences between Gens and Reps? (Is a Gen PAM worth that much more than a Rep if these two watches were from a NoName supplier - What about other Reps)?" "Is the GEN Price really justified? Or are even the Reps overcharges." All imho... A genuine watch IS overpriced at list price if none or very few will sell at list price while the exact same watch will sell in quantity for 20%, 30%, 40% etc less than list price. Example...try to sell an Invicta at list price. They will fly at 70% or 80% off though. A watch is not overpriced if the entire production or most of it will sell at list price. Some buyers will pay list price for a watch and others will not buy without a discount, that's just the way it is. Some buyers believe list price is Ok because it makes the item seem to be more valuable (to them) while others will not pay list price because the watch is not worth as much as list price (to them). I remember reading on one of the genuine watch forums a few years ago about a guy who had his mind set to buy an omega smp and had found one at an AD for $1700 or so. He was going to buy it the next day. That evening he and his wife went to Costco and while the wife was shopping for groceries, the guy went to look at watches and found a new in box omega smp for $1350. Which one did he buy? The one for $1700 because he said the lower price at Cosco tarnished his image of the smp because to him it was a $1700 watch. I laughed out loud because the minute he sized the bracelet and put the watch on...he then owned a $1000 watch no matter how much he paid. As for me, I would not pay over 15 to 20 cents on the list price dollar for any new in box (rolex) watch unless I could sell or part it out for a profit. That's about all they are worth to me if I had to own one. I knew an AD and could get just about any new rolex for cost (except Daytonas) as long as I promised not to flip it. In 20 years, the only one I bought at cost was a sapphire GMT II. I never wore it but sold it about 12 years later and bought a 'real' gmt...1675. "To me the question was...'remove all branding and lay a rep and gen down beside each other' This means all production, advertising, delivery and after sales cost are irrelevant." I believe the cheaper unmarked replica watch would outsell the higher price unmarked genuine watch by a large margin until the reputation of the replica was ruined by poor QC, WR, reliability, no service, warranty etc. 　 My BS detector just went off... 　 "Yes ... a Rolex Movement is Better (more Jewels) than an ETA one, so the Rollie will be worth more." Watch jewels can be purchased in bulk assortments for $10 to $20 a gross (144). 　 "Combine that with the 14 months it takes to manufacture a movement, and I think most Rolex's should cost more." It might take 14 months to design a movement along with all the various assembly machines from scratch but after all the tools, robots, parts etc are in place, I would guess it is closer to a few hours to 'manufacture' a movement. I've seen the videos. After all, their watch movements are nothing new...they have been making the same thing (with a few 'improvements') for 50+ years. The auto Daytona probably did take a little longer but it had more parts...Ha! 　 "It costs Rolex more on the outlay to make a steel watch than a gold one. When 904L was first proposed inside the company, the technology for the massive 250 ton press used to stamp out the Oyster cases did not even exist and needed to be made from scratch! This is why most manufactures do not use 904L." This would be true only if 904L cost more than 18k gold. 904L compared to 316L: 904L... Tensile Strength (MPa) minimum...490 Yield Strength 0.2% Proof (MPa) min...220 Rockwell B (HR ...70 to 90 316L... Tensile Strength (MPa) min...485 Yield Strength 0.2% Proof (MPa) min...170 Rockwell B (HR max...95 So...904L is almost the same stuff as 316L. 　 "It takes a year to make a Rolex." "There's a Rolex owner born every minute."

You can buy a complete running/swimming/biting alligator for a lot less.

I bought a few cheapo tutone DJ 5 or 7 years ago for parts and after looking them over I discovered: 1...the dials are very well done, about as good as any DJ repdial I have seen 2...the cases accept gen-spec crystals/gaskets/case tubes/crowns 3...the dials originally came with two sets of dial feet, one for eta and one for Seagull ST6 (they snipped the eta feet off) 4...the hoods have tubes soldered in them with goldtone caps soldered on top like genuine, not just stamped and plated 5...22 link bracelets with screws in the removable links 6...very good stamping on the clasp 7...inside the caseback it says 'Monarch Polfy/Gelena Shitinerand SA' same as many swisseta watches from a few years back 8...the fluted bezels are gold plated over steel, not brass What these watches do not have but 'swiss' models usually will have: 1...groove cut in the case for clamps 2...ref/serial numbers between lugs 3...sapphire crystals, these are MG 4...metal movement spacers with clamps/screws, these are plastic They are the same exact cases/dials/bracelets as used on many 'swisseta' watches except for movements, numbers, grooves, and crystals. "No sapphire - only synthetic sapphire - visibility is poor etc," All sapphire crystals are synthetic sapphire although some 'sapphire' crystals in replicas are MG.

"(they concluded that excessive force was used to cause the bezel to fall off... false) and need to "fix" the movement." You can bump into a wood door frame and knock a genuine rolex gmt/sub bezel off. $700 'movement service' = move the winding rotor to one side so they can see the movement serial number and write down on the bill. Maybe ask around to find someone with a parts account and have them order the part. No doubt rolex watch co's sorry attitude has given a huge boost to sales of high grade replica rolex watches.

The Good...If it runs all right, it is probably Ok. The Bad... The first thing to rust is usually the stem so look at it and also check for rusty screw heads. The Ugly...Look for moisture dots on the dial. If it 'rained' in it...you might have trouble because 'rain runs down the drain'. You can place the watch under a light bulb for a while to dry it out...not very hot or it will fry the oil. It probably did not leak any more than the average replica...Ha! Free advice...do not get in the middle of a rolex repair job if it needs movement service/parts. Let the owner deal with it. I have been screwed/held responsible by getting in the middle of rolex repair jobs while just trying to help. Now when someone asks if I work on rolex watches, my reply is... "Only if it belongs to me." I am not an expert nor do I play one on TV.

"This has probably been answered before but could not find it. Anyways my watches tend to sit unused. Ive noticed a few of them need a lite tap to get started.. This is after crown is wound to full power reserve. Is this normal?" Normal? Yes and no. If it is a little bit 'out of beat' the balance will sometimes not self start on windup but will usually take off if you twist the watch back and forth a few times to get the balance wheel (not the winding rotor) in motion. You can also set the time ahead slowly a few minutes after winding the watch if it will not self start as this will usually start it running. If you have to shake it like it is on fire or remove the caseback and start the balance wheel moving with a tool of some sort...you have problems. "Damn, I got 5 or so of these watches like that. 4 asian eta's and one seagull. What members repair reps? How much does a rep cost to service?" "4 asian eta's"...asianetas may be worth cleaning/oiling depending on the cost. Best call is to replace DOA asianetas with a swissetas if the watches are keepers..but then you still have the problems that come with worn or dirty movements if the swisseta is not new. Money is better spent to c/o swissetas than asianetas imho. I am referring to 2824/36 asianetas, I do not know anything about asianeta 2892 clones. "one seagull"...the seagull ST16 is a pretty good movement but not really worth paying for c/o imho, ST6 is even less of a c/o candndate. CH/DG (Miyota clones) are not worth c/o either, replacement is usually a better option. I like the Seagull ST16 a lot better than CH/DG (Miyota clones) because of the more efficient Seiko type 'magic lever' winding system. I never had a CH/DG with much running reserve...sometimes have to 'shake 'em up' in the evening to make it through the night. I keep getting the urge to flatten them out with a hammer.

If not for 'self-wingding' I doubt this watch would have been busted. Go to VRF and read the thread "about the 'fake 5512' just posted by Ralle..." Especially the posts by 'Philip' and 'MC Yoon' about dials from Japan and red subs in Singapore.