automatico

WatchTime will have a good technical article now and then but they are first and foremost a shill for (mostly Swiss) watch companies...making them out to be Super Heroes when in reality they are not much more than a bunch of crooks (imho). I call is as I see it. There are some good hardbacks such as the Hess/Dowling rolex books etc. Also a few Omega books, one titled 'Omega Designs' but it is mostly a picture book. If you want to learn about the mechanics of watches and not just the hype... Buy a couple repair manuals, a basic tool kit, and dig in on junkers...or hang around a watch repair shop with real watch mechanics. The problem is most local repair shops today are battery swappers. I live in an area of about 500,000 and there is only ONE real watch mechanic still working and he only takes in work if you have known him 25 years. Turnaround is 6 months+. I waited over a year on the last job he did for me (1919 Illinois 'Abe Lincoln' RR pocket watch restoration...nos case/dial etc). Cost = $0. Hard to beat.

"Don't snip the feet." "Shear is generally reliable, but not infallible. I have never seen an original 1016 without the SCOC & SWISS - T < 25 on the dial. But, as is often the case with vintage Rolex, never say never." Very good advice. Find out all you can about the dial before you kill it. Without dial feet it is no longer worth much. It might be a 'collector item' "...the GS Tropic 22. If you can find one, I recommend it over the Clark T22." The GS part number is PA 464 64C. About $10 or $12US. I have used many of them without any trouble at all. "There've been a number of good builds from members who've used the 1601." One problem is after drilling the lugs out for genspec springbars there is sometimes not much metal left in the lugs around the holes...usually depending on how much the case has been ground and polished in this area. Do not drill the holes any bigger than absolutely necessary and do not taper the holes on the outside as genuine cases are flat across the holes. The reason why you see tapered holes in pictures of vintage watches is because of careless polishing on the sides of the case. Sometimes a slight taper on the holes inside the lugs can help with getting the springbars in. The 1016 case is quite a bit different from a 1600/1/3 and has slightly thicker lugs to allow for the bigger sb holes, an O section caseback gasket (the 1600/1/3 has a flat gasket), and the thicker crystal. 1016 = 330 feet/100M WR 1600/1/3 = 165 ft/50M WR A first class 1016 or 16200 case with new tube, crown, crystal, and gaskets will probably go 150 or 200M...but by then your head will have caved in like a milk carton.

"So what is the story with the top photo? A modified GEN movement?" Yes, it is a genuine 1565/1575 with a $2 modification to make it work like a gmt...for a while. They use the standard minute wheel with a small accessory gear stuck on top to turn an ill fitting 24 hour wheel. You can see the gear added to the minute wheel (the first brass wheel on the right side with the 'yoke' over it). Compare it with the correct gmt movement pictured below and you will see what has been done. With this botch job, the hands are too close together and the 24 hour hand usually rubs the dial or hits the 12 hour hand. They are basically jamming 4 hands on a 3 hand movement. Here is most of what is needed to convert a 1565/75 to a 1565/75 gmt: #8038 - center second pinion 5.70mm #8037 - Cannon Pinion 3.39mm #8039 - hour wheel with double toothing 2.44mm #8040 - 24hr wheel 1.41mm #8035 - Calendar Wheel nut #8036 - Date Jumper #8006 - Yoke for cam #8008 - spring for cam yoke #8011 - stud for cam #8030 - Center wheel with Cannon Pinion #8034 - Calendar Wheel #8011 - Stud for Cam #7965 - calendar spacer Q...What is hard to find? A...All of it. Q...What is almost impossible to find? A...#7965 - calendar spacer #8034 - Calendar Wheel #8039 - hour wheel with double toothing 2.44mm 7965 usually goes from $200 to $500 8034 usually $200 to $400 8039 usually $200 or so Q...What else is needed? A...Two cases of Jack Daniels and $2000+/-.

"The original 1680 (Polex 5513) is a great platform for some serious modding, to a point, but the dial size is a sure tell if you're trying to build a real "Super franken" I was looking at doing that, and I was dissuaded by several much more knowledgable Vintage Rolex Experts who pretty much said, go with the genuine insert, crown/tube, crystal, slow beat 2846 and crown guard modding, etc. but don't spend money on a 1570 movement and a genuine or high quality aftermarket dial and hands..." Very good advice. "Sooner or later you'll end up w/ a few keepers." True. Some of my best cases came from 'River' 6 or 8 years ago. Also have a few 'Monarch Polfy/Gelena Shitinerand' DJ cases from years back that accept genspec case tubes, crystals, gaskets etc and are better than many today. I don't know the history behind the Monarch Polfy cases but some were pretty good.

A piece of soft chamios wrapped around a flattened round toothpick works pretty good. Clean Rodico is good for removing dust and fingerprints...stretch the Rodico and use the lighter surface created by the stretching as it will be a bit more porous. Be careful if you use 'Simichrome' polish etc as it will quickly remove the flash plating on markers and hands. If you find any loose markers...it is best to cement them from the back side where the mounting post comes through the dial. Be careful with 'superglue' as it can travel down the marker post to the front side of the dial. Bare wood... 'Florida pith wood' is Ok to clean markers etc but it can be dusty. Be careful with the outer 'bark' on Fpw because it can scratch plated surfaces, only the inner part is soft enough for cleaning/polishing. It is basically intended for cleaning tweezer tips, pivots etc.

Six or seven years ago there were 6263 etc everywhere with ST19 that looked pretty good...subdial spacing looked close etc BUT the cases/dials were too big and they had 20mm bracelets. They looked good in pictures though. I do not know if they are still for sale or not but watch out if you want the correct size case, bracelet etc. They were about the same overall size as an Alpha.

"We do have a number of employees with nice Gens but a lot of guys have some pretty bad fakes, there's one guy who comes by and sells them Canal street reps for $180-200!" Southeastern USA... I have a few friends in the car business and many of their salesmen wear replicas, mostly rolex DJ and submariners. One dealer had to make the sales guys stop wearing big clunky steel watches because they were scratching cars when they banged against them during demos etc. They have to wear plastic watches or a low profile metal watch now. There used to be 3 rolex AD within 20 miles and now there is only one locally owned snob outfit left that never sold much to start with although they have pedaled rolex for 40+ years. Carlyle went doa and Jared lost the rolex franchise. Now they try to stick you with an omega when you walk in the door. Don't see many high priced watches on people around here but do see lots of seiko and citizen quartz stuff. I do not go to bars so do not know what I might see but on the street most younger people wear cbp or nothing for a watch and depend on a cell phone for the time. See a lot of vintage bulova, omega, longines etc around where watch traders gather along with a few rolex but they usually wear the rolex only because it is for sale and really do not care much for them. Many traders wear quartz watches when not trading because they do not care for the hassle having to wear an automatic to keep it running or take a chance of dropping one of the damn things...including me. This is just not much of a high $$ watch area. A lot of high $$ houses, cars, trucks, motorcycles, and boats though. They make Sea-Ray and Master Craft boats a few miles down the road along with Allison Craft and 3 or 4 other brands. See a lot of 'good ole boys' pulling $40,000 bass boats with $60,000 trucks...wearing a timex or casio. Guy down the street had a 'ski boat' with a souped up chevy 454 jet drive in it. It sounded like a giant stomach pump going down the lake. A fast bass boat could run around it. At the local flea market I see characters wearing $20 canal street junk trying to sell it as genuine but that is what I would expect. Saw one guy with a fake tudor sub that he paid $900 for thinking it was genuine. He asked me if it was 'real' and when I said No, he got mad at me...so I offered him $75 for it to finish him off. I meet people now and then to make an offer on their watch and a couple weeks ago got a call from a lady who 'inherited' a rolex that she "guaranteed to be 100% genuine" and she wanted to sell it. I met her and glanced at the watch and said "It's a $12 quartz fake." She said "How do you know?" I said "It's obvious." She said "How can you tell so fast, Mr know-it-all?" I said "Because five dollar watches make a bad taste in my mouth." She huffed and puffed a couple times and took off to the pawn shop with it.

The great photos allow a close look at the movement and it looks real good. The purple on the reversers might be hub caps but that's fine. Also looks like it even has the rotor axle release lever so you can r/r the rotor without removing the autowind assembly. Looks to be a big step ahead of asianetaclones too. Like to be 'a fly on the wall' when a big wig rolex exec gets one to look at.

Sounds like a watch will need to have one or more of four problems for this to take place: 1...A crown that does not uncouple (usually causing trouble on manual wind movements). 2...Low quality winding wheels. 3...Too much friction somewhere in the winding train on automatics. 4...Too much hand winding on automatics. Manual wind eta 2801 has a slightly different winding setup (stronger because of more teeth) where the auto version has staggered teeth on one of the winding wheels. When reversers etc get dry or gummed up it takes a lot of pressure to get hand winding power all the way to the mainspring. The faster you wind a watch the worse it gets, sometimes to the point of breaking a stem or crown post. You can see the staggered teeth were carried over to the sellita in the picture, this is probably what is chewing the teeth off. Newer etas also have a hub on the stem that rubs against the outer plate to prevent wearing the pilot seat on the mainplate if the crown does not uncouple properly. Genuine etas do not seem to suffer from a low quality winding assembly although 2824 style reversers will give trouble sooner or later if not cleaned/oiled now and then. A 2801 etc manual wind will break something sooner or later if you wind it all the way up then screw the crown down against a lot of resistance when the crown does not uncouple properly, usually directly related to how many turns the crown takes to tighten up. This is also important on genuine rolex manual wind movements as they can strip teeth off winding wheels and the parts are geting very hard to get. Something else you do not want on any movement with a screw down crown is a stem that is too long causing the stem to bind up inside the movement and damage something. I never cared much for asian or swiss etaclones anyway...fish bones, dirt, and hair in asianetaclones and not many parts for sellitaetaclones. The best fix is a genuine eta in good condition imho. I used to feel dumb about gathering up eta 2824/36 movements when they were cheap, but not now.

"I ordered one of these cases before and sadly my gen dial did not fit. I think the one i got is a 1680 case stamped 5513. In the end i sold the case to another member." It was not 1680 spec internally but more or less 5513 spec with the dial seat cut too big. A genspec 26mm dial falls through. A 1575 date movement and dial will not fit properly either. The 1680 dial is Ok but the case screws and stem will not line up where they should. What is needed is an (out of spec) 26.5mm or 27mm 5513 dial for a 1520. ...or maybe a genspec 1680 dial mounted on a 1520 no date movement with the date of choice cemented under the dial...28 like all the ads.

As far as I am concerned, Sellita 2824 (SW 200) are just Swiss made Eta look-alikes although probably quite a bit better than the rash of Asian 'etas' being produced at this time. What is needed in the industry is innovation and a choice of movements that do not look exactly like 90% of Swiss movements. If I want an Eta, I want an Eta, not a look-alike that Eta parts might not fit. What Sellita is probably crying about is the Swatch/Eta plan to limit or stop furnishing parts kits aka ebauches because Sellita assembles a lot of movements from kits with specific modifications for various brands. At this time Sellita probably can not make enough movements and parts kits of their own to fill all the orders. Sellita also makes a 2892 look-alike (SW 300) and 7750 look-alike (SW 500). Imho, one of the best new movements is the Citizen 9015 but since it is not Swiss Made, it will not show up in 'Swiss' watches...although the China made Seagull ST16 aka 'Claro Semag' claims to be 'Swiss Made' by making a trip to the Alps for a few quickie tweeks. Citizen 9015 ligne size: 11-1/2 thickness: 3.9mm functions: 3 hands with date beat rate: 28,800 bph jewel count: 24 power reserve: 42 hours automatic and hand winding quick set date stop seconds device (hack) automatically winds in one direction (CW) viewed from the back side Citizen 9100 (base 9015) ligne size: 13-1/2 5.52mm thick jewel count: 26 functions: time, day, date, month, synchronized 24 hour hand, power reserve indication. stop seconds device (hack)

Looks like the movement is a gem...and the case is a toid. ('toid' is NYC speak for tur-d)

" So just remove the hair spring assembly and pass it through a demagnetizer?" You can run the complete watch or movement with or without the dial/hands through the demag. Be sure to have a firm grip on it. If it is a 'tunnel' type demag...put the watch in the tunnel, turn it on, leave the watch in the tunnel for a couple seconds, move it out of and away from the tunnel quickly, turn the demag off. Never leave an AC demag on for long because they are basically a direct short and can heat up quickly. Flat top demags work the same way.

"DW supposes to supply material from makers who are supposed working under Rolex specs. I suppose DW uses same material from the same origin than NDT, J&W or Yuki, No mystic." From looking at his 1680 and 5513 cases...the only thing close to rolex spec is the ability to accept a genuine movement and genuine dial (most of the time on dials). "DW looks like the third actor, excavating the dustbins of the majors, NDT or J&W or Yuki... It should be very interesting to fly to HKG and investigate to discover the rep world's who's who." You would think with all the members on RWG...someone would come up with a 'connection'. "These new lines of cosmographs from the cartel, using Asian copy of bi-compax movements with a frozen hand at the supposed third subdial, are not built in the way to adapt Valjoux movements. Stop the dream." Thanks! Heading down this path is sometimes more of a nightmare anyway. I've been down the 'project path' many times. I have a miniature lathe and mlling machine so it is not too much of a task as long as the basics are in order.

"In theory, the internal dimensions of DW 62xx Daytona cases for 7750s differ from those made for V72s (the external dimensions are the same), but the variations may be due more to the lack of QC & overall case-to-case variability than anything else. Either movement can be made to fit a given DW case with a bit of dremeling (which is often required anyway)." +1 on lax QC causing no-fit cases etc. Something I have wondered about is if a V72 and gen-spec dial might work in one of the newer Seagull ST19 Daytona cases. I have a 72 and might go for one if I thought it was pretty close...then maybe get an IG dial and a set of hands. I have one of the ST19 powered Daytonas but it is the whopper size model from 'Paul' about 5 years ago...20mm lugs etc. The case is 36.6mm on the underside between the lugs, 38.8mm wide from just under the crown to the 9 side, and the bezel is 39.6mm. It runs like a champ though, the ST19 is hard to beat.

All genuine rolex crowns I have seen in sealed blister packs contained one crown only. I have a few new crowns in original packaging that have been opened but they are genuine rolex parts that came from a 'friendly' rolex AD who did this because opened new parts = used parts as far as they were concerned and they would let me have a 'used' part now and then. Nos crowns from a supply house may show up two to a package but the packaging is probably not going to be the same as what rolex used. A long time ago (before rolex went 'Hagar the Horrible'), crowns, tubes, crystals, and many internal parts were available from Bestfit etc...some in original packaging, some not. I can use an opened 'new' crown for a replacement during repair but would have trouble selling it as 'new' in an opened package. Why? Because you have to open the package to install the new crown and new is new ('new' = unused/unmarked). You would not open the package if you plan to sell the crown alone as new. I have heard of fake crowns for sale in unopened look-alike rolex blister packs but have never seen one. A member (can't remember who it was) told me a year or so back that he was pretty sure he had one (7mm sub mono) and it came from eBay. If they can make a 95% case...they can make a 95% crown.

"I have a feeling the 3 pack I ordered from Ofrei is simply wrong / mis-labeled. The OD is nearly 35mm. Went ahead and ordered from another source." Probably the wrong gaskets. 29 = part category 325 = 32.5mm 10 = 1.0mm I had to stretch a few out a little before installing them...aft/mkt, not genuine. Maybe you got 'regular' and you need 'bull size'. Ha! I'm talkin' 'bout caseback gaskets here. Oh no... I read it bassackwards. I'll shut up.

"...how did you manage to install the gen tube ? did it fit the case ?" All 1675 came with 5.3mm tubes and crowns. All 1655 came with 6.0mm tubes and crowns. Modern (sapphire DJ etc) with 6.0mm crowns use a 5.3mm case tube so you can put a modern 6.0mm crown on a 5.3mm case tube. Submariner 7.0mm case tubes have the same threads (where they screw into the case) as standard 6.0mm case tubes. 5.3mm case tube threads are 2.5mm x .25mm where they screw into the case 6.0mm/7.0mm case tube threads are 3.0mm x .35mm where they screw into the case

"Spending $1000-1200 for a gen movement isn't worth is to me anymore, been there, done that. Particularly with the 1680/1665 when you can put in a 2846 and have something that is just as good movement wise. By the time you spend $2000-3000, you could have spent a little more and got a true gen which will only go up in value if you care for it properly. A franken will always be a franken." Agree 100%. Otoh, I will say an F-stein with a genuine movement is probably Ok as long as you can sell the watch for what you have in it (counting outside labor)...in one piece or parted out. I have one that will probably sell for what I have in it, a '1680'...but only because I got a race horse deal on the mvt and dial. ...and one that will not, a '1655'. Maybe break even if I live to be 100. I can not see myself putting a 2846 in a Yuki/NDT etc $high buck$ case with a $150+ IG etc dial...but I can see going with a 2846 in a low buck cartel case/dial with a few low cost mods. I have said this before and will say it again...rolex movements are Ok but parts and service are a real problem. If you buy a 1575 for $1000+ and it turns out to have a worn out rotor axle, w/o reversers, ms arbor hole in the main plate worn out of round etc...all you have left is a few parts for your $1000+. 'Collectors/dealers' may buy three 1575 powered watches and make two out of the best parts, then sell the one with the worst parts. Some of this stuff is getting close to 50 years old and there is a lot of junk out there for sale. Something else...when you need to have a rolex movement cleaned/oiled...you will pay the 'Doctor Price' ...unless you know a 'watchguy'.

"I remember hearing (possibly a joke) about the rep factories getting too close to perfection and being shut down from the all-mighty Rolex Copyright Protection Agency of Doom." It's probably a joke. The rap is the same if you get caught with a load of 80% accurate replicas or 99% accurate replicas. The trade name is the law breaker...not how accurate it is to genuine. Canal Street dealers get busted over and over selling watches that would not fool Ronald 'Big Mac' McDonald on a foggy day. In my opinion, the easiest rolex replicas to pass off as genuine are DJ. One reason is because they are simple and understated compared to submariners, Ex II, gmt, Daytonas etc. Another reason is that no one pays any attention to a DJ. They figure it is a Seiko. Everyone who sees a submariner assumes it is a replica, I usually do. ...but if I see a 300 pound guy with a 9" wrist wearing a beat up tutone submariner with 15 stretched out links and a Super Bowl ring...it's probably the real deal. "How many subs (rep or gen) can you sell to the same guy?" Quite a few if each 'new improved' one is a tiny bit better than the last one. Seeking perfection in a replica is a long, hard road.

"I'm with WW12345 on this, send it off to jmb and have him make a crystal retaining ring for you. Then you'll have something which is a copy of the gen assembly." I agree 100%. It is also a good idea to get a couple spare crystals exactly like what you use on the watch if you plan to keep it. Why? Because the next batch of crystals may not be the same. I have 3 or 4 brands of aft/mkt crystals and they are not exactly the same. Some fit...some don't.

Well...this is nice. Shorting out supplies of circuit boards to supply houses so customers will have to buy a complete movement. There is one thing the mighty eta did not think about...Citizen/Miyota, HR, Hattori/Pulsar, ISA etc movements are as good (or better) than just about any quartz eta movement ever made. The only thing that keeps 'swiss made' (eta) movements standard in 'swiss made' watches is the swiss brand name displayed on the movement. It is not quality. It is not price. ...and coming soon, it is not parts availability. I can not remember how many eta 955.xxx movements I have replaced and I still get a dull headache when a two hand Concord Mariner, Ebel sporty wave etc shows up with that absolutely horrible, fragile, little skinny trouble prone, two hand, upside down battery eta monstrosity in it...always with a doa circuit board...or worse. The catalog price used to be around $250 for a movement, now it is "call for price" because they are too polite (or ashamed) to print the ever rising price. 'swiss made' ain't always 100% 'swiss made' with swiss movements either... An eta 955.xxx etc with green plastic = swiss parts, assembled in Asia (or no telling where) sometimes with the disclaimer "swiss parts, china assembly" etc. Blue plastic = swiss made and assembled. Older patek philippe quartz gents watches usually had an eta 955.xxx in them with a fancy cover over the movement to disguise what it really was. Lady models used the eta 256.xxx iirc. PP mechanic..."Yes sir, I can replace the complete movement in your beautiful patek philippe watch with a genuine movement for the special price of only $965.00, labor included." PP owner..."Ok, if that is the best you can do." PP mech...Yes sir, I assure you it is, I will just barely break even." 30 minutes later... PP mechanic..."Hello, Watch Supplies R US?" "Please send me one eta 955.112." "You say they are still $29.95?...that's great!..make that two, next day delivery!"

I have a Frankenstein 1680 with an early original no hack 1575 and dial out of a rotted out 1680...it came with a Lemrich 'Mk I' dial and silver date wheel. I see mostly white date wheels now though. There is one like it on eBay, item 300628232848

"I remember reading that the bezel was spring and not gen-spec, but could that and the inner bezel be fixed by machining parts (ala JMB)? He machined a couple of gen-spec bezel retaining rings for me, so if that could be solved that way, that would be OK." You would need an inner bezel made to accomodate a gen spec crystal and modify the rotating bezel to snap down over it, or make a gen spec inner bezel and use a gen spec rotating bezel. I thought about making a new inner bezel that would work with a gen spec crystal and just use the spring wire rotating bezel that came with the case. On spring wire bezels...you have to allow enough space between the inner bezel and rotating bezel for the spring wire to slide by so you can r/r the rotating bezel or it will turn out like a 'noobmariner' and bend the rotating bezel when you try to pry it off because there is not enough room for the spring wire to pass between the bezels. "I can't really tell from the pictures he sent whether the sides are going to be rounded. I suppose that given enough metal, I could de-round and fix them, similar to the re-machining you have to do on Josh 1655 cases." You could sand the sides flat and repolish them but it would take a while. "I sort of assumed that smaller size spring bars would be stock. Drilling them out is no big deal. Neat on the gen tube screwing in out of box. By no groove for the tube gasket, you mean the crystal gasket that goes under the bezel retaining ring? I wonder if that could also be fixed." There is a plastic gasket that goes between the case tube and case that fits in a groove cut in the case...there is no groove cut in these cases. There is no groove under the crystal retaining bezel on my case...it is like the one in your pics. "So far, to me, it sounds promising, except for the gen dial not fitting. That is the one problem, as I know of no way to add steel to a case." This is a big problem. The best/cheapest fix is to find an oversize 5513 dial. "I asked for different dimensions on the inner rehaut, so we'll see if he can help in that regard. Like you said, automatico, it looks too good to leave alone." Yeah, they do look good!

"sorry to say - i have the same case - totally wrong - no gen or aftermarket part fit ....no 1:1 construction ..." I have one of these cases too. The dial seat is cut for a 1680 dial...a genuine spec 5513 dial falls through the front of the case. The inner bezel that holds the crystal to the case is not genuine spec...the ID is too big so a genuine spec crystal will not fit. The rotating bezel is held on the inner bezel by a spring wire...not snap on like genuine. The sides of the case on mine are rounded like a DJ...not flat like a submariner. The springbar holes are drilled for smaller springbars...you will have to drill them out for submariner springbars. The case tube and crown are not genuine spec...but a genuine spec case tube will screw into the case. One more litttle catch...there is no groove cut in the case for a genuine spec case tube gasket. It sure looks good though. I'm gonna mount it in my trophy case full of lost causes. I have a 1520 and genuine spec 5513 dial, but since the dial is a no-go, I thought about maybe putting an aft/mkt 1680 dial on it with a section of date wheel (28!) cemented to the underside of the dial. ...or I could cement the hands on it too and save the 1520. Slow set rule #1...The date is usually wrong. Slow set rule #2...If the date is right...the canon pinion is usually worn out.