automatico

"Just to give you guys an idea, MQ charges €6500 for a converted 727 movement, work only (you supply the movement) is €4500. Phong charges $6500 for the conversion only." "Those prices are just mad." +1 They have tripped off into Fantasyland imho. I have owned too many $300/$400 watches with V72 to think they are worth that kind of $$. I'll admit it was a while back (sold them all in 1996/97) but hey... It's like the current H-D syndrome: I believe many of today's genuine high priced rlx watches will end up like used low mileage full dresser Harley Davidsons (aka garbage wagons)...going for about 25 cents on the retail dollar that was paid for them before too long. Guy down the street bought a 2004 full dress black HD with 8k miles on it for $4200 summer before last. A friend bought one from the original owner (2013 model) with a few hundred miles on it for $10k (over $25K new) and he offered to GIVE it to me last spring. A relative down in Florida has a 2017 dresser that he bought new...I asked if he still rode it and he said "No, come and get it". Another friend could not stand the loss so he poured a can of Sta-Bil in his, let it run a few minutes, took the battery out, threw a blanket over it, and forgot about it 2 or 3 years ago. He said he thought about pouring the Sta-Bil on it and lighting it up. The biggest HD dealer in the USA is about 4 miles from here and every fat guy with a big shiny belt buckle has at least one in their garage. No kiddin'. Disclaimer...I am not talking about walking sideways into a chrome and glass H-D shop with a pocket full of credit. I am talking about asking around and beating the bushes with ca$h to spend. For watches you have to put the word out for guys who own them and need $$. You have to find the watch owner before they hit the pawn shops.

"For the case, dial and bracelet are there any suggestions of a way to go other than raffles." If you are going 36mm...you might look for a case with the partially hooded lugs like genuine, not the common 'round end' case like DJ etc. They use different hoods (bracelet end pieces) but they are not hard to find, or you can modify a standard set to fit.

"But Riff-raff is no riff-raff!!" You are right about that but I did not want to blast their name out. There is Raffles Time then there is Raffles ..... dotcom.

Here is a picture of one apart so you can see how it is made. The poster tells about putting a T19 on it. http://walletfriendlywatchforum.com/read.php?7,601204,601204 Tiger watch website: http://www.tiger-concept.com/5513v2-watch.html

BTW who is Riff-Raff? R-R website info sent in a message.

"Ugh too much trouble. Guess I'd stick with a non-fliplock clasp instead." I know what you mean... I have a 'Mary' 7836 folded oyster that I put a fliplock clasp on that has never suited me. I started out by changing the two connecting links that attach to the spring bars from the 'figure 8' type that came with it to end links that were a better match to oem parts. This worked out Ok. Next I removed one link from the 6 o'clock side (to go from 6 to 5 links) and a link had to be spread to get it apart. I needed to remove one link so the bracelet would not be too long after the dive extension is installed...it came with 13 links. When I bent the link back down to put the bracelet back together it did not bend back down evenly and left a slight crimp on the top side of the link. Rats! Next was the link that connects the clasp assembly to the bracelet on the 6 o'clock end...I found a suitable connecting link and got the clasp mounted but the half link spacer that covers the open space (where the center link was removed in order to connect to the clasp) flattened out when I squeezed it together to hold it in place leaving a crimp mark. Now I have two crimp marks! I even went so far as to make a tool to put 'keeper dents' in the skirt of the clasp to hold the bracelet in place under the clasp cap. I posted about this tool a year or two ago...I made it out of a leather strap notching tool like you use to cut 'Gucci notches' in straps. I still need to change the crimped half link spacer out for a better one and install a dive extension but I quit on it for now...about two years ago.

"This begs the question if the same works on the crowns from the replica models such as those from Silix etc or the generic replacement crowns? Out of curiosity has anyone ever tried it, especially if one has the tools handy and when you have nothing else to replace it with?" I have taken a few apart and swapped parts around to make them work but sometimes things go wrong...center tube breaks off in the crown etc. The big problem is there are so many variations of replica crowns that a lot of the parts will not match. The two types I have had the best luck with are the old brass body crowns with steel 'bottle caps' and the crowns that came on the noobmariners. Both must have matching case tubes because the brass/steel capped models have a case tube made like a regular 6mm dress crown and the noob crowns are not oem spec. Also had a few 6mm all steel replica crowns (not a cap) that held up real good and they use oem spec regular 6mm case tubes...I put one on my JMB '1016' and it has caused no trouble. Have a few crowns from TC and about half of them developed weak springs before too long but I never tried to fix one because they still worked. The overall quality is high other than the springs and they work with oem spec case tubes. The problem is TC went South. Never tried a 7mm crown from 'Riff-Raff' but they should be Ok and $17 for a crown and tube is a very good price imho. This is probably what I would go with if I needed a few. They also have 6mm crowns with the swiss + mark on them for $20...a bargain compared to $100 for a worn out genuine example. Every genuine + type crown I have had was worn out before I got it.

It is a 'rivet tube'...a hollow tube with a rivet pressed into each end. You can pry them apart if the rivets are not too tight in the tube. If they are too tight, you usually have to grind the rivet head down thin enough to be able to spread the f/l lever and break the rivet or knock it out with a punch. It is hard to grind a rivet head down without leaving a mark but it can be done. Rivet tubes are for sale from supply houses and on eBay but you need to know the correct outer diameter. I buy them too long and cut to size. Watch out for price crooks, 10 or 12 tubes with rivets should not cost over $5 or $7. Example: Here is a 55 piece set for $18.50...eBay item number 142580396265

Here is some more crown info from a thread in January 2019. https://rwg.cc/topic/193353-rolex-crown-free-wheeling-is-it-repairable/ Timelord: "Have a new 7.0mm crown which does nothing upon turning it in either direction ! Sometimes it just moves the hands a bit but then keeps slipping!" amc: Check the spring before taking it apart...does it have enough tension to push the setting works from time set position to winding position before it contacts the case tube threads (assuming the stem is cut to the correct length)? Does it always snap back into the extended position when 'push in' pressure is released? To check the clutch, remove the crown and stem from the watch and hold the stem in soft jaw pliers or a pin vise and see if the crown slips internally while turning the crown both ways with a little bit of 'pull apart' tension applied to the stem and crown. It should not slip when 'pulled apart' and turn freely when compressed. The crown clutch, tube and all will unscrew from the crown cap on 7mm crowns with the steel or gold 'bottle caps' crimped over a base metal inner frame. The last one I had apart was the type of crown made with a skirt for the O ring on the outside of the case tube so it was a later model. I use a 'ww' type chuck in an old 8mm 'watchmaker lathe' to grip the clutch tube and hold the lathe still by the drive pulley while unscrewing the cap from the tube. A pin vise will work if you can get it tight enough to keep it from slipping and scratching the outside of the tube. Once it is apart the trouble will be easy to spot...maybe a weak spring, maybe a bad center tube where the stem screws in etc. Use Loctite when putting it back together, taking care not to get any inside the clutch. Also use a tiny bit of grease on the internal clutch parts...KT22 etc. I have not tried to remove a tube and clutch assembly from a later 'mono block' type 7mm crown.

The crown clutch, tube and all will unscrew from the crown cap on 7mm crowns with the steel or gold 'bottle caps' crimped over a base metal inner frame. The last one I had apart was the type of crown made with a skirt for the O ring on the outside of the case tube so it was a later model. I use a 'ww' type chuck in an old 8mm 'watchmaker lathe' to grip the clutch tube and hold the lathe still by the drive pulley while unscrewing the cap from the tube. A pin vise will work if you can get it tight enough to keep it from slipping and scratching the outside of the tube. Once it is apart the trouble will be easy to spot...maybe a weak spring, maybe a bad center tube where the stem screws in etc. Check the spring before taking it apart...does it have enough tension to push the setting works from time set position to winding position before it contacts the case tube threads (assuming the stem is cut to the correct length)? Does it always snap back into the extended position when 'push in' pressure is released? To check the clutch, remove the crown and stem from the watch and hold the stem in soft jaw pliers or a pin vise and see if the crown slips internally while turning the crown both ways with a little bit of 'pull apart' tension applied to the stem and crown. It should not slip when 'pulled apart' and turn freely when compressed. Use Loctite when putting it back together, taking care not to get any inside the clutch. Also use a tiny bit of grease on the internal clutch parts...KT22 etc. I have not tried to remove a tube and clutch assembly from a later 'mono block' type 7mm crown.

Parts needed to convert 1570 w/date to GMT: #8038 - center second pinion 5.70mm #8037 - Cannon Pinion 3.39mm #8039 - hour wheel with double toothing 2.44mm #8040 - 24hr wheel 1.41mm #8035 - Calendar Wheel nut #8036 - Date Jumper #8006 - Yoke for cam #8008 - spring for cam yoke #8011 - stud for cam #8030 - Center wheel with Cannon Pinion #8034 - Calendar Wheel 8034, 8035, and 8011 are in a grouping on the Rolex sheets. You can also find all the GMT parts on a parts list for the 1565GMT. GMT parts are the same for 1565GMT and 1575GMT movements. The calendar ring (spacer) must also be changed. There is more than one p/n for them...7956, 8037. Center second pinion #8038 is not necessary if you can find a sweep second hand with a long tube. https://rwg.cc/topic/114671-rolex-1575-gmt-movement-questions https://rwg.cc/topic/141303-cal-1570-gmt-tell-me-if-i-m-wrong/ https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=rolex+1575+gmt+parts

If the case is not machined for a gasket between the case tube and case, cutting the shoulder off the case tube is a good fix. Might want to check WR if you plan to take it in water. I have had to cut a few cases to allow for the gasket but it is not much fun. You have to mount the case in a table vise, line up the case tube hole with the cutter, and cut the gasket seat with a milling bit in a milling machine. Imho a drill press might not be very precise for this. The set-up takes longer than the cutting. I looked for the cutter but I 'straightened up' my shop and can not find it...iirc it is 4.0mm as the shoulder on an oem spec case tube is about 3.85mm. Some gaskets are rubber and some are hard plastic and you turn the case tube down until it seats against the case. Theoretically...I had a batch of 'oem spec' case tubes that broke off under much pressure at all. I do not know where I got them but the row of threads where they screw into the case were about 2/3 as long as oem. Something else...I have seen replica 7.0mm triplock crowns with O rings in the cap where the crown bottoms out to compress the O ring against the end of the case tube and the crown (and coronet) stay in the same position as time goes by. I have also seen crowns with flat round gaskets in the crown cap and the gasket flattens out over time and the crown gets closer to the case after a while.

"I intended to build a sea dweller but upon completion, tried to wind it up to get it moving. The rotor kept spinning like crazy." It might help to hand wind it slowly with the case in a vertical position so the weight will fall to the bottom. Maybe not depending on overall condition. "Stripped the whole automatic assembly, cleaned it all, lubed them and replaced them back in the movement!" "Actually they performed worse as rotor went like a propellor upon manual winding." "Has anyone experienced the same problem with new and just cleaned serviced reverser wheels doing this???" ETA 28xx auto wind assemblies/reversers can be a pain. If you hand wind them...everything wears out. If they get dry/dirty...the rotor spins and the pivots wear out. If you over oil the reverser ratchets and everything else...the rotor might still spin but the pivots will live long and prosper. The 'rule' is to use super light oil on the reverser ratchets, heavy oil on the pivots, a bare minimum of hand winding, and move around a lot when wearing the watch. Here is some info:. https://alt.horology.narkive.com/mhYwomwC/eta-2824-2-problem https://www.watchrepairtalk.com/topic/6561-cleaning-the-reverser-wheel-from-an-eta-2824-2/ https://www.etsy.com/market/live_long_and_prosper

"Some watches take less to get there than others and I mean to get tells down to the minimum." True. Most of my experience has been with 5512/13/1680 and 36mm sapphire DJ. It is fairly easy to duplicate a sapphire DJ using a replica 16200 case, genuine dial/crown, aftmkt 3135 dw or dwol, aftmkt hands, bez/crystal, case tube, good rep bct, swiss 2836 etc. The main tells are the direction you turn the crown to set the time ahead and the noisy rotor. As for the 55xx and 1680...you need a good case, bracelet, dial, and bez insert. The rest of it may not be as important. Otoh... Have a pretty good MBK 5512 F-stein with a 1570, Yuki dial, genuine crown, decent bez insert etc with a 'Mary' fold oyst. Also have a $125 21 jewel cartel 5513 with a so-so case etc and they both look the same to just about everyone except me. Why is that? Because these things are relatively few and far between making most 'outsiders' unfamiliar with them. Besides that, many '100% genuine' examples have had some parts swapped out in the past (Lumi 'service' dials etc) and do not appear to be genuine. Some of our replicas look more genuine that a 'genuine genuine' example. Ha!

On replicas, Regular Frankensteins, and Genuine Movement Frankensteins: There is a huge difference between replicas (Rep), Regular Frankensteins (RF), and Genuine Movement Frankensteins (GMF). The biggest difference is that replicas and Regular Frankensteins are usually a lot cheaper. Besides that you can use any kind of movement you want to use in a replica or RF where 'just like original' GM Frankensteins will need a genuine movement and lock the builder into using the best of the best parts. In the end you wind up with a high priced replica watch rather than a more reasonably priced replica watch. That's all. Rep, RF, GMF...Ha! Frankensteins in general: One big question is what exactly is a Frankenstein watch? Some believe a replica watch with a genuine crown is a Frankenstein. Not me. Maybe in order to be a Regular Frankenstein, a watch should have over 50% of the value/price of the watch in genuine parts at current parts prices. Example...I have a rlx 15200 with genuine case, crown, dial, hands, DW, crystal, and bezel on a leather strap. The movement is a nos ETA 12892 (the watch came from Stilty almost 10 years ago). Is it a Frankenstein. Yes imho. A 16200 replica case with a genuine dial, swiss ETA 2836 with DW from rlx 3135, genuine engine turned bezel, and crown is a Frankenstein using the 50% rule. Most likely. The same 16200 replica case with swisseta or etaclone movement, replica dial, bezel etc and a genuine crown is not. In the end it's a judgement call. Your thoughts...

Here is some free advice on 600 type/BB automatic rlx movements (from experience): Stay away from them. They were not very good to start with and now with the parts situation they are a losing game. Go with rlx 1530 base rlx movement projects...or use an ETA movement. Another movement to stay away from is the tudor 390 (FEF 380). They run Ok but have all kinds of auto wind problems, just like rlx BB types. Go with tudors that came with ETA movements.

Had a ref 6105 tutone (A296) in November 1990, paid $250. Also had an all steel ref 6303 (A260) at the same time, same price. Next (and last) was a 6050 BB in August 2010. All gone now. What did I learn? Parts in the early 1990s were hard to find, especially auto winding parts. A few a/w parts are now available in the aftmkt. The time keeping parts seem to be pretty good and do not cause much trouble. Oldest rlx autos I have now are a pair of 6605...one TT, one all steel (TT 1956, cal 1065, SS 1959, cal 1066). Did I move up a notch? I hope so. The 645 movement is 9.75 ligne size and they have a skirt made on the outside of the plate to make the OD 11.5''' (about 26.4mm). Rlx 15xx, 30xx, and 31xx are 12.5'''. ETA 2824/36 are 11.5'''.

Here is a discussion about a Hamilton model that often turns up for sale: https://forums.watchuseek.com/f357/real-hamilton-khaki-automatic-replica-fake-1106266.html I saw a few 'hamilton khaki' automatics for sale for 3 or 4 years at around $200USD with b\p and they were not genuine but many were similar to this genuine example: eBay item number 183514917869 Another guy had tudor rangers for the same price with etaclone automatic movements, tudor signed winding rotors, and oys bracelets. I read some stories about them back then and some sellers were claiming they were made for different markets being the reason for not showing up in catalogs. Good story but they were not genuine. Here are some examples of what is out there: http://www.for-best-watch.com/Hamilton-0e7n2s.html About the same time, a lot of new steel Tissot quartz chronographs showed up for a little over $100 with b/p. A friend bought one and I examined it closely...it was very, very good. Here is a nib Tissot chronograph for almost half the average discount price: eBay item number 223292614846 It is priced less than many replicas. Genuine or not? Who knows? Not me for sure. How about a genuine quartz 'Daytona' for $90? https://www.yj-watches.com/ Look in the under $100 section.

Wonder why f l a n g e is censored and flanged is not? f l a n g e 1...A projecting rim, collar, or ring on a shaft, pipe, machine housing, etc., cast or formed to give additional strength, stiffness, or supporting area, or to provide a place for the attachment of other objects. 2...A broad ridge or pair of ridges projecting from the edge of a rolled metal shape generally at right angles, in order to strengthen or stiffen it. 3...A ring or collar, usually provided with holes for bolts, and screwed or welded over the end of a tube or pipe to permit other objects to be attached to it. From Dictionary.com Must be a cuss word. ...in another world.

This is not much help but I have a Phong 1655 case from 6 or 7 years back that has scratches above the groove where the casing screws go. It had a 1575GMT movement before I got it so maybe the previous owner had trouble fitting the GMT movement in the case. The movement I have for it is not together so I can not try it in the case. The movement is held tight in genuine 1655 cases (and hopefully 'oem spec' cases) by two flanged 'casing screws' that fit in the groove around the inside of the case. The movement is held tight in the case by backing the screws out against the upper (case back) side of the groove rather than tightening them. If you tighten the screws, they just bottom out against the movement plate and the movement flops around when the crown is not screwed down. There is a notch in the groove on most cases across from the case tube where one casing screw will drop down into the groove. At the same time the opposite screw will drop down on the case tube side where there is a small cutout at the case tube. After putting the movement in the case, turn the movement to line the stem up, install the stem, screw the crown down to center the stem in the case tube, and 'loosen' the casing screws to tighten the movement in place. On MBK cases and some others that are not exactly oem spec...I use case clamps if the casing screws are too tight in the groove because the movement mounts a hair too high or too low. Thinning the flanges on the casing screws or using tapered [censored] screws is another option. Never had much luck with 'half head' casing screws where there is only half of a [censored] on the screws. They are made for cases without cutouts for the casing screws and sometimes the only option. Note: If the casing screws are too tight against the top (case back side) of the groove...forcing the movement to turn may scrape paint off the edge of the dial or break the dial feet loose from the dial.

"I picked up this solid gold gen for the ever-patient Ms Nanuq for $220" That is a nice watch! Lucky too. Most got scrapped by the time gold passed $1000 troz. A friend who buys gold gave me a movement and dial for a fancy style lady rolex a while back...we all know where the case went. It is a cal 180 with a 16.25mm tall x 15.5mm wide dial. I might have a yellow gold case to fit it somewhere in my scrap. Parts dammit, parts.

"I ended up buying one from MQ, which was a big disappointment. Quality was poor and badly finished." The watch looks very good to me. My 2 cents... I never bought anything directly from MQ or Phong but the impression I have gained from reading all the problems encountered with our various 'vendors' over the years is they think we are stupid. I can come up with no other explanation. Otoh my Phong 1655 case is first rate but it came to me from another member. I have had good experiences personally with two case vendors...Yukiwatch and DW. DW is now long gone afaik. In my experience you are much better off to learn the basics of case detailing and go with a lower cost case to begin with. It seems to me the engraving between the lugs is one of the hardest things to get done correctly if it is a priority. Case back stampings are either Ok or not from the start and they are hard to alter. Outside case back engravings (COMEX, Tudor etc) are very hard to duplicate and many efforts are sub standard even on high $$ cases. Something else I always consider after getting done with one of these projects is how good it looks and performs for the price. A $3k watch should be better all around than a $1k watch but sometimes it is not. It is the nature of the beast. My $500 JMB '1016' is turning out to be better than many watches that I have sunk a lot more than $500 in. I was not real happy with it at first (2824/2846 combo mvt) but I have been wearing it going on 3 weeks and it is doing fine...even if it has 8 lug holes. Ha! Looking back, my MBK '5512' and '5513' are two of the best projects for the $$ because the cases were relatively low $$ and I got the 1570 and 1520 movements at 'bargain' prices a few years before the rolex price explosion. The watches were finished for less than $1500 each including bracelets. I know the laser engraving is lousy but it is fully hidden. Also have a '1680' that I finished in April 2011 with a DW case, rlx 1570, and original Lemrich Mk I dial that came in under $1000 but I have never worn it. I'll leave it like it is because the DW case is as good as anything to preserve the movement and dial. I have an IG44 '1680' case if I decide to change cases later. The IG44 case is very good btw, it came from a member in new condition a few years ago. IG44 is long gone too, far as I know. "Maybe I’m also disappointed to have dropped some hard earned coin on MQ expecting it to be of better quality and I’d like to get word out about quality/price so we’re not overpaying. Vote with our wallets, right?" It is the only vote we have.

"50 year old GMT" Looks good! My 1675 turns 40 next year. Y'all going to have to stop posting pictures of 1675 GMT watches! Why? Because every time I see one it reminds me of the 1675 I bought in a pawn shop for $325 in June 1997. Patched it up and traded it off like a fool for an OPD 1500 and a little bitty wad of cash. Immediately started looking for another (affordable) 1675. Finally found one in March 2007. The good thing is when I see the pictures it makes me want to finish a Phong case 1655 that has been apart for 5 or 7 years and c/o the 1675 that has been parked 10+ years. Nuq: Cool Ice Cold GMT!

"...explanations between gold wrapping, gold plating and the various things to be aware of?" In the real world, 'gold wrap' would equal heavy gold filled or gold capped. The old USA jewelry standard tor 'gold filled' used to be 1/20 gold by weight...1/20/14 = 1/20 14k gold by weight. You can see this on some older GF bracelets etc. In the replica world 'gold wrap' equals mostly heavily wrapped BS. For sure there were some very good replica bracelets made with a thin layer of gold on the bracelet center links (tutones) but gold was around $400 troz back then, now it's $1200 troz. Look closely at a genuine rolex tutone bracelet end link (16233 for example) and you will see real 'gold wrap' where a strip of solid gold is soldered to the top of the stainless end link/hood. The bracelet center links are solid 18k gold along with the bezel but the (original) crown has a gold cap crimped over base metal (nickel silver). There may still be some 'gold wrapped' bracelets around but they will be expensive. I would guess a tutone 13 link oyster type bracelet with actual 14k or 18k 'gold wrapped' center links would sell for $300 or more because a high quality oyster type bracelet with solid 18k center links will cost around $1000 to $1100 retail. Wholesale price is probably $800 or so if you could find a source. "...wrapped links, turned out BP links (and others) weren't even gold." Yep. I have a few jubilee type bracelets with '18k center links' that are actually plated brass. They look good and will last a long time but they have to be kept clean and polished with Simichrome, Flitz etc or the edges of the mid links will fuzz up with corrosion. "18K Thick Rose Gold Thick Plated (5 mils)…" 5 mils = 5 thousandths of an inch. Not bad. For comparison, the old 'gold cap' rolex 1550, 15505 etc had 40 mils (.04 inch) of gold on the case. The bezels were solid gold. Never saw one worn through but have seen a few where an idiot polished through the gold on the sides and top edges. Otoh if they said 5 microns... 5 microns = 0.00019685 inch There is also 'flash gold plating'. FGP = thickness less than 7 millionths of an inch, sometimes used to give gold tone color to cheap items. Less than 7 millionths of an inch ain't much. Also PVD coatings...fairly rugged and no gold at all.

"I do not know how to attach the wheel assembly to the spring." Look closely and see how the hs is attached to the balance...pinned, glued, or laser welded. Pinned hs can be r/r by removing the pin in the collet mounted on the balance staff. Many hs are glued or laser welded to the collet. The fix for them is a replacement 'balance complete'. Balance complete = balance with hs attached. I have a couple 7750 but have not worked on one. Did not look at one to see how the hs is attached because what I need to see is out of sight and would involve removing the balance. I have heard claims of repairing detached glued/laser welded hs from people I do not know but no one I know has tried it. "Also just an FYI it seems the folks here are bit more receptive to newbies unlike the guys on watchuseek." I know what you mean. It is somewhat of a repair guy clique over there and not overly friendly. https://www.eta.ch/swisslab/7750/7750.html FYI... ETA 7750 variant: https://grail-watch.com/2015/02/08/curious-case-column-wheel-valjoux-7750-variants/