automatico

"Do all MBW 1680 cases have the gasket groove under the retainer ring?" I have four cases the oldest being 7 to 10 years old and they all have the groove in the top of the case. Afaik no matter what the reference number is, the 5512, 5513, and 1680 cases are all identical. I could be wrong though as I have never owned any of the older cases. All mine have 'Original Polex Design' on them. "If yes, are they then replicating the later 70ies case that is more correct with a mk4-6 dial?" Yes, they are made more or less like the later cases. I have an MBK '5512' with a 'me first' dial and it is not period correct because of the extra O ring...but it's a replica.

"I just found out they make clone 2892 movements from looking at Ebay today. When the hell did they start doing that?" They have been around almost as long as the 2824/36 clones. There is not as much demand for them so we do not see them often. There are a few China movements with the 2892 type autowind rotors and bearings with different guts thrown in the mix too. "Is there anyone else frustrated they don't clone a 1530 or 1560 movements, etc?" Maybe not a look-alike clone (that may be too much to expect), but maybe a lower beat movement (21600 is Ok) that will accept genuine spec dials/hands/DW and fit into vintage rlx cases. A GMT movement would also be very nice. "Didn't the patent expire just as easily on the old 15XX movements just as much as the patents would have expired on 2892?" Yes. The 15xx patents have been expired for years but there is probably not much interest in a 1530 clone except to vintage repnuts like us. What is really needed are high quality aftmkt movement parts. There are already center wheels with CP, other train wheels, rotor axles, balance staffs, and a few other parts available but no reversers or GMT parts. Most of the aftmkt parts are being made for 1570 date movements, not much for no dates (cw/cp, hour wheel), and no GMT parts afaik. I guess GMT parts are not much in demand. "Are they gonna seriously end up cloning every single ETA movement ever made before cloning any 15xx movements?" It looks that way. I think maybe the Chinese first thought their etaclones would be used in main line 'swiss made' watches after shooting them through a swiss based movement detailer but the 'genuine' swiss made etaclones blew them out of the water. Now it looks like the Chinese etaclones are mostly ending up in replicas or mushrooms on eBay. Imho the UT/Eta 6497/8 clones are the most reliable and the Venus 175 clones are not too far behind. I have a V175 clone that still runs fine 10 years since new with no service.

"As soon as we figure out how to 3d print clone cases then we will all be building great watches." I have thought about this quite a bit over the past few years and imho I doubt metal printing is good enough yet to make a case any better that what is already available. One problem is metal printed cases are somewhat rough upon completion and extensive machine work is still needed to turn out the finer details. Case threads do not come out very good either...they need to be machined. https://monochrome-watches.com/3d-printed-watches-dutch-watchmaker-michiel-holthinrichs-part-1-concept/ https://monochrome-watches.com/3d-printed-watches-dutch-watchmaker-michiel-holthinrichs-part-2-close-ornament-1/ I believe the formula for the 'perfect' case is starting out with a conventional die stamped case that is very close to begin with and having it professionally detailed. Case back stamping and numbers/letters between the lugs are one area where very few modifiers/detailers can match genuine. Another hard to duplicate detail is making believable wear marks from bracelet hoods and everyday wear and tear without making it look like it has been done on purpose. I am not a fan of artificial aging and fake corrosion so this has never been an option for me. Corrosion and wear are hit and miss on vintage watches. I have seen 15 year old cases with significant corrosion and 50 year old cases with no corrosion at all depending on chemicals encountered, dirt, moisture etc. I have owned a few rlx watches 30 or 40 years old that were only good for parts because of corrosion. Otoh overall cosmetic condition usually depends on the owner but some watches that had significant case corrosion looked very good otherwise. Someone who knows about 3D printing might chime in. Btw...a few years ago Seiko had some watch cases (Arctura iirc) made with compressed metal powder to cut down on the extensive machining required to make complicated case shapes. Many car parts are made by this method. There are also cast stainless steel items of all types. https://www.milwaukeeprec.com/stainless-steel-investment-casting.html

I stuck a brass dial to a brass spacer with 'Gorilla Glue' and left it 48 hours. It holds pretty good but still came off easily. Maybe it's not as good as two part epoxy.

"...any ideas which brand makes this crystal?" No idea, they may be custom made in Switzerland with the source kept secret. I have used a few and they were very good quality, I plan to get a few spares before long. They should keep for at least 10 years. I have some crystals that are 25+ years old and they are still flexible as when new. I keep them in a dark cabinet at room temperature.

"But honestly, Rolex is just doing it to make their brand seem more exclusive..." +1

I mentioned that I used clear 'Gorilla Glue' to stick the dial to the movement spacer on my last project. I'll stick a dial to a spacer with it later today and see how good it holds after it sets up and post the results.

"I truly think that he does also cater to that side of the fence as well and since he knows the dealers are selling these "potentially franken" watches at such high prices he maintains his healthy margins and tells us cheapo hobbyists to take it or leave it." Me too. "It would be interesting to know how many "vintage watch dealers" that "used his services" will be impacted by him shutting down." Very Good question. I doubt many so called 'experts' could identify a top line replica case with genuine mvt, dial etc after it has been professionally aged and worn for a few years. RWC might catch one if the case serial number was wrong. Maybe not, they were made a long time ago. If a 'Big Time Vintage Watch Dealer' ends up with an expensive watch with a case they are not 100% sure is genuine, it is easy to guess which side they will come down on. "Buy the seller." Ha! 'Screwed by the seller' is more like it when it comes to old rolex watches.

The 3135 is 28.5mm in diameter so the ST case ID is a hair larger. There is no spacer used in a genuine 16610, the movement is a close fit in the case. An Eta 28xx movement is 26.0mm OD. Notes: The figures given are the maximum OD, there is a step on the OD of both movements but the spacer may need to fit around the larger OD shown. Try fitting everything before making any modifications to the spacer...you will need a precision digital caliper. Here is what the steps on the movements are for: With the spacer ID same as the overall movement OD...the spacer may be pushing against the dial. One project may be different from the next. When the spacer pushes against the step on the movement...it will be pushing against the movement. The best method. Most spacers pass by the step. When this is the case (pun!) the case clamps usually exert enough downward pressure on the movement to hold it tight without undue pressure on the dial. Once you start fiddling with the project you will see what I am talking about (it's for sure I don't know). You need a spacer about 28.5mm OD and you may need to sand it down a hair, maybe not depending on the case ID. The ID needs to be about 26.0mm to accommodate an Eta 28xx (with the spacer passing by the step). Brass or aluminum is Ok for spacer material but I lean toward brass when possible. Custom made spacers like the 'Stilty Spacer' were made to secure the movement by the step but spacers like this are hard to find now and most people do not bother with making them. I have to make them one at a time and it is slooow going. The 'Stilty Spacers' were CNC made. Yuki adaptors probably are too. https://rwg.cc/topic/116411-yuki-eta-2824-adaptor/ https://yukiwatch.ecwid.com/ETA-adaptor-retro-fit-cal-15X0-case-p35063689 http://rafflesdials.com/one-pc-28-2mm-solid-brass-movement-spacer-ring-for-mounting-eta-2836-inside-the-36mm-rolex-datejust-watch-case/ http://rafflesdials.com/one-pc-29-2mm-solid-brass-movement-spacer-ring-for-mounting-eta-2836-inside-the-40mm-rolex-submariner-watch-case/ The Raff 29.2mm OD spacer will work if you sand it down. It does not take much because you only have to cut half of what you need...reducing the OD by .7mm only takes a .35mm cut. You need to figure out a way to spin the spacer while sanding the OD if possible so it will be even.

"...I have already cut dial feet and used dial dots in my builds. IMHO this is not satisfactory enough." I too have tried dd with little success. They are usually Ok for quartz watch projects with light movements, plastic spacers, non screw down crowns etc. I ended up using oem spec dials with the dial feet removed with the dial cemented to a custom made precision fit brass movement spacer with clear 'Gorilla Glue' last time around. I have a lathe and can make the spacers but there are many brass and aluminum spacers available so one that will work should not be hard to find. I doubt plastic spacers would be good for this type of application. I did jam a couple dd between the ID of the spacer and OD of the movement to keep the spacer/dial in the proper position on the movement while mounting the hands...they were fine for that. After the case clamps are tightened down, the movement/dial combo should stay in place as long as the clamps exert enough force to hold it all together. Here is one of the stories: https://rwg.cc/topic/192105-jmb-1016-project-update/

Here is a sample of what is available: http://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY-30&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1E_bands_Screws&offset=15 Most supply houses have the same assortments.

"You are partially incorrect about why platinum cost more than gold (when used in jewelry). Platinum is 60% heavier than gold." One cubic inch of platinum weighs 351.5 grams. One cubic inch of 24k gold weighs 316.6 grams. 18k gold is approximately .73 times as heavy as platinum. One cubic inch weighs approx. 256 grams. 14k gold is approximately .6 times as heavy as platinum. One cubic inch weighs approx. 210.6 grams. 10k gold is approximately .54 times as heavy as platinum. One cubic inch weighs approx. 189.5 grams. Low karat gold jewelry with identical dimensions would be close to the 60% figure. "There is a truth to working with platinum being a pain in the ass. But it's mostly that you can't contaminate it with anything else. So Platinum jewelry work requires an entire set of dedicated tools. (Normally, we can use the same tools for gold or silver, but if you get a tiny particle of gold, silver, or copper on platinum, it will show up as a blemish when polishing." I am aware of this but there is no welding involved in stamping out/machining watch cases and very little involved (if any) in making bracelets today at the manufacturing level...maybe welding case tubes in cases, latches on clasps etc. "Being harder to work with for a watch company using robots doesn't sell with me!" Me neither. "Yeah, like it takes one year to make one rolex." Maybe...but there is a rolex buyer born every minute. I just can't understand how they keep up.

"That is what happens when you sell modified cheap Vietnam parts, in the US, using one of the most hardcore privately owned watch brands in the world. I know a lot of you guys loved him. But all he did was reshape." My guess is you hit the nail on the head. I have said from day one that the difference between a $50 replica case and a $1500 replica case is a few (maybe more than just a few) hours of reshaping/detaining. As long as the basics are correct (or can be made correct)...lug hole location, case neck, case back configuration, thread size etc, an expert in detailing with the proper tools can make them 'almost real'. "When I asked him for a quote on a 6263 18K YG case it was >10000 EUR." "When I asked why the big difference compared to the SS one, he said work was more complicated." Yeah, that's like the sucker game where platinum watches are 50% to 100% more that 18k gold. You ask why and they tell you it is because platinum is 'hard to work with'. Using the same twisted logic, stainless steel would be 'the new platinum'. 8-20-18...plat spot $793.90/troz gold...$1186.80\troz Plat is a little bit heavier but not that much. Otoh 18k gold is diluted 25% but I never heard that excuse.

"You could be making a fortune right now just selling parts if you had just known what parts to stock up on." For sure. I kept mostly 1530 base movements and parts...1520/1570/1575. The nos crowns I have would be good for someone wanting to restore an older watch to 'original condition ' without using a modern 'monobloc' crown. "So the 703 is not exactly right for my watch, but it's not exactly wrong either. I guess it just depends on the effect someone is trying to create. Gen, never serviced = 702 crown, while gen, serviced = 703 crown." The price list I got the prices from is dated November 1995 and it was good through 1998 or so. It has 702-0 crowns listed so watches serviced years later could have new 702-0 crowns installed if someone kept some of them. The 7020 case tubes were $17.50 and 7030 case tubes were $22.50 on the list. Still have a nos 'Pepsi' 1675/16750 bezel insert from back then and it has $30 written on the envelope but do not remember if that is the buying price or selling price. I had two inserts, black and Pepsi, I put the black one on a 1675 I had at the time. I paid $325 for the 1675 GMT, it needed a balance staff (pack of 3 for $18). The price list was from a watch parts supply house, not RWC so the parts cost less to the supply house, probably 25% to 40% less.

"Also, there's the 704 which is all ss and not wrapped like the 703s." A few years back, I bought a couple hundred used rlx crowns aka 'take offs' and there were a few 704 types in the mix making the 704 older than I thought. Most of what I got in the mix were 530-8 with maybe a couple dozen 600-8 gold. All except three or four 704-0 were wrapped/capped crowns. Wonder when the 704 types came out? I could not find the date when I bought them and they were probably 3 to 5 years old when I got them. Prices fyi: I have some nos 703-0 crowns that I bought in the early to mid 1990s when parts were still available from supply houses. All the nos crowns I have from back then are the type with crimped caps. The 702-0 and 703-0 were $35 each back then. I did not buy any 702-0, should have loaded up on them. Steel 5.3 and 6.0 were $20, gold 5.3 and 6.0 were $35, 703-8 gold were $75. A set of 3 hands was $23, a set of 4 GMT hands was $30.50. A full set of screws for any automatic caliber was $25. Tropic acrylic crystals were $15.50, cyclops $17.50. One reverser complete $25. Spring bars $2.50 each. It's too bad my time machine went to Woodstock and never came back. Have not heard from Max Yasgur in a while either...

"I'm going to just do the cartel case. I can't pull myself to find $650+ for something I'm going to stick a 2846 in anyway." Good decision. A $100 movement in a $700 case is... Fill in the blank. "I'll work the lugs down to where I like them, and drill out the holes to 1.25mm." I usually go 1.3mm because you can not tell the difference by looking and with replicas you often need a little wiggle room. "I wouldn't be able to live with a 26mm dial, knowing the real deal is .5mm bigger." "That, and I want the watch to have the Rolex date position (not ETA)." Oem spec dials will be the correct size...55xx = 26.0mm, 1680 = 26.5mm. All proper oem spec dials will also have the correct date offset. "SO - is it not possible to SLOWLY sand out the rehaut with, say, 2000 grit, until I get the additional .5mm?" It is easy, but only if you have a way to spin the case while sanding it to size. If you sand it evenly and measure it often you are usually OK doing it by hand. Remember...you only have to remove .25mm to make the window .5mm larger. Maybe start with 600 grit paper because 2000 basically just polishes the surface. Enlarging the window with 2000 would be slow going...like a parakeet eating a grindstone. You do not want a shiny polished surface, another reason not to use 2000. "Assuming I do pull off my intended sanding, will the rehaut/crystal/bezel dimensions be correct with my having modified the case to accommodate the 26.5mm dial? That is, will it LOOK right? Or will the rehaut now be too thin, etc etc etc?" You can not tell the difference. Sand the opening at a 90 degree angle to the case or you may end up with a tapered or sharp edge leading down to the dial. A small straight 90 degree edge will not be noticeable but a change in the reflector area (rehaut) angle will be. Measure the case first, it may be correct to begin with. "Bonus OT questions I'd love to have answers for: I bought a Sternkreuz 127 for giggles - is that a decent "top hat" to use, or do I need to also buy the Clark's? Or other?" Crystals are one part that are sometimes not consistently accurate to oem spec from brand to brand and even within the same brand. If the case neck is oem spec (28.2mm), any oem spec crystal should be a light 'push fit' (by hand) down over the case neck. It should not be tight enough to stress the crystal. Crack!. It should not be loose enough on the case neck to slide back and forth at all because the inner bezel will have to: 1...First, take up the slack between the case neck and crystal. 2...Second, clamp the crystal to the case neck. Because the inner bezel is doing 'double duty' you can not accurately tell if the pressure required to press the bezel down over the crystal is from shrinking the crystal down on the case or actually clamping the crystal down. Crystals that are loose on the case neck can also be too big for the inner bezel to start down over them evenly. I have a 'T&E collection' of aftmkt crystals and go by trial and error until the fit is right. I have had good luck with Clark and GS. After you push the crystal down over the case neck, measure the OD with a precision digital caliper (a must have). Then measure the ID of the inner bezel. If the inner bezel is about .1 to .15mm smaller that the crystal it will usually be Ok. Usually. No guarantees. This is one 'hobby' where the $pending curve can rapidly outpace the learning curve.

"So using the chronograph causes stress on the movement and this makes sense." Not stress so much as basically 'pressing your luck' because of the poor construction, tolerances, and QC of many Asian clone chronograph movements. "But I'm guessing as this movement becomes more popular the cost of the parts will decrease (unless you go gen) and that the watchmakers experience will increase." The movement clone producers usually do not make parts available and repair guys who work on genuine watches do not like to work on them. Q...Why? A...The answers are stated above and below. To put it mildly...the movements are problematic. There are no distribution channels for signed knock-off movement parts, or Asian clone parts in general. Sea-Gull maybe but I have not seen any except on eBay and they may or may not be Sea-Gull parts as there are 3 or 4 Asian clone makers. "Is sourcing gen parts an issue if this is a 1:1 clone, with the exception of some parts as mentioned above?" Some parts may be 1:1 with genuine but not all. Take the autowind assembly for instance...it may fit but it might not a good idea to put a $500 genuine part in a $600 replica. Q...Why? A...Because then you have an eleven hundred dollar ($1100) replica plus labor with only ONE (1) reliable genuine part. All imho. If this was a proven chronograph clone movement...Seagull ST19 - Venus 175 clone for example, my answers would be different but the 4130 clone is new and unproven. I sincerely hope you have no trouble with it.

"...as others have stated this is a tough movement to work only a rep watch smith should be used and a damn good one at that." Agree. Downside: Looks good but comes with gremlins: Very little QC as mentioned above. No Parts. Some genuine parts will fit, but they are hard to find and high $$. A skilled watch mechanic is needed to work on them. Upside: They cost $10k less. Factoids: Reliability before and after service will be better if the chronograph function is not used, same as with any mechanical chronograph. A seconds at six non chronograph movement with a center sweep hand frozen at 12 is a much better and cheaper alternative for a replica...imho. What if you really need a chronograph? Get a Seiko with the meca-quartz 6T63 movement. One example is the Seiko SSB025PC. Frédéric Piguet and Jaeger-LeCoultre made meca-quartz movements in the 1980s/1990s and they were expensive and a pain to work on (No Parts For You!). IWC used the JLC cal 631 version and Breitling called their souped up Frédéric Piguet cal 1271 the 'Breitling 69' in their Windrider Chronoracer Rattrapante. Not long ago, Seiko made some watches with meca-quartz movements that are reliable as a pet rock and sell for $200 or less.

"Absolutely, you will save a bunch. Just the gen 93150 bracelet has became ridiculously high now. I have seen very well done aged bracelets using rep parts." I've cobbled a few together and it seems the hardest part is finding a bracelet stamped '93150' with hollow mid links as most have solid mid links. If you come up with a bracelet with HML it is not too hard to scrounge up a proper clasp and dive extension. The catch is you need a clasp made for a rivet in the hinge end, not a plain spring bar. For this you will need the proper flip lock lever made to accommodate the rivet. Not as easy to find as the models with spring bars. Genuine riveted hinges have a spacer on each side between the FL lever and the clasp blade to keep the FL from getting out of alignment. The rivet type FL lever is wider or has a relief cut in it to clear the rivet. Next you need to decide if you want an old style 'holes in a row' clasp or modern type with 'spaced holes'. Last but not least is the crimped 'keeper dent' in the clasp cap skirt on many of the older 93150 bracelets. It helps keep excess links and the dive extension from dropping down every time you take the watch off. I made a tool to put the dent in the clasp cap out of cheapo strap notching pliers. Then there are the flip lock levers without grooves, clasp caps without fingernail notches etc but they are few and far between on replicas so I won't mention them... Spaced holes with keeper dent: Holes in a row with keeper dent:

The method outlined above is the way to go. I have a 'DJ' done basically like the 'horologist' version using the following components: Standard 36mm 162xx type case made for Eta 2836/A21j. ST sapphire crystal with gasket. ST case back gasket. ST case tube with gasket. ST steel fluted bezel. Aftmkt crown with new cap gasket. Compared the case to a genuine 16200 case and the case neck is the same OD (29.5mm) with a very good finish so the ST oem spec crystal and gasket will work. Case back gasket was from an ST assortment. Crown is like the one that comes on JMB '1016' type cases. Used 'ThreeBond' sealer on the case tube threads and silicone grease on the rubber gaskets. Tested it in a Bergeon 5555/98 tester to 85 or 90psi (about 6atm). I use a small air tank to pressurize the chamber through a Schrader valve installed in place of the pressure relief valve. One shot and pressure is up...no pumping. Tested it 4 or 5 times. No leaks. Still have it a few years later. It has a black Roman numeral dial, red/black date on white, red second hand, jubilee style bracelet, and a Seagull ST16 movement that runs within 10 or 12 seconds a day (slow). Need to speed it up...never got around to it. Make sure the case neck is the same as oem (29.5mm) and the case tube threads are oem spec so oem spec parts will work. Some cases have 5.3mm case tubes and some have 6.0mm case tubes...both should have 6mm diameter crowns. FYI...5.3 case tube threads are 2.5mm x .25mm, 6.0mm threads are 3.0mm x .35mm. Read the 'Crown Info' sticky in the rolex section for more confusion.

"Rolex has a uniquely stringent view on what qualifies as an illegitimate Rolex. In their view, any modification to a watch making it appear other than it shipped from Rolex’s factory renders the whole watch counterfeit. This is their view, whether the replaced part or parts are aftermarket, or original Rolex parts. Change the bezel on DateJust from fluted gold to a Rolex stainless steel bezel? The whole watch is considered counterfeit, unless you pay a Rolex service center to change it back." According to that, a huge percentage of formerly 'genuine' rlx watches are 'Officially Counterfeit' by decree. So...one burning question comes to mind. Why not buy a 'Real Counterfeit' to begin with?

The catch is finding one that is tap 10 (T10 = .9mm, same as modern rolex crowns). Most will be T9 or T8, too big. Here is one but the price is high: eBay item number: 202374736429 A 'reasonable' price imho is $6 to $12. VALJOUX 23-401 (T10) Winding Stem fits: 23 23c 72 72c etc. (c = calendar) I looked in my parts but all I found was a V72 mainspring.

"I was surprised by the plexi fitment - is that just this rep case or gen?" Only on cases using this type of bezel. Genuine and oem spec cases have an inner bezel ring that presses over the crystal skirt and the rotating bezel snaps down over it. There is a thin spacer between the inner and rotating bezels to provide tension to keep the bezel in place. The Abay case neck is oem spec (28.2mm) so aftmkt oem spec bezel kits will work. Case backs made for the gasket groove in the case with 30.5mm case back threads will usually fit these cases. The Abay cases were the 'Eta project cases' of their day much like the MBW/MBK cases were the 'rolex project cases' of their day. AfaIk most of the current batch of '5514' cases are not the same as the Abay cases. The current bezels are probably better and most will have the back gasket in the case back. Few will have the oem spec HEV. Abay cases make excellent Eta 1680 projects with an oem spec crystal/bezel kit, oem spec case tube/crown (I used TC ct/crn), trimmed CG, and drilled lugs. Better 1680 projects than 55xx projects only because of the 26.0mm dial window opening. With an oversize 55xx dial they are fine. Here are some 29mm +/- dials from Raff that should work if the minute markers are not covered up too much. Never tried one. http://rafflesdials.com/watch-dial/

Cool retro-replica! I have a few 'Paul/Abay' watches. I hear everyone saying...Yawn, so what? So...here is some of The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly (imho): The Good: The case neck is oem spec so oem spec crystals and bezel kits will work. The HEV is oem spec but the leaf spring is weak. The dial seat is 29.3mm so it will take a variety of large OD dials. The case tube threads are oem spec. Some had pretty good hollow mid link bracelets with the 'prototype' clasp. Spring bar holes are usually located so there is room to drill them out without being too close to an edge (very important imho). Very good overall quality except for the bezel fiasco. The Bad: Crystal is glued to the case and the bezel is either glued over the crystal (will not turn) or the bezel has a spring wire mounted in it that goes in the space between the top of the case and the 'short skirt' crystal...the crystal is glued on but the bezel turns. The case back gasket groove is in the case, not the case back like oem 5512/13/14/1680. It does not matter. After all, the genuine 1665 gasket groove is in the case. The dial opening is a hair too big (26.0mm) for oem spec 5512/13/14 dials. Works Ok with 1680 spec dials. Will not accept a rlx 1530 base movement...case ID is too small. Never tried hogging one out to oem spec. 'Batman' crown guards are too big. The Ugly (according to genuine watch forums): The fk'r wearing it. Hee Haw! The Paul/Abay 1665 used the same exact case as their 55xx/1680 except for the HEV. "...go "stealth" pre-COMEX." Pre-COMEX!