automatico

"Ah well that explains it. In my world, no real Rolex exists after 1974.'' +1 What he said. Sapphire, sel, crockery bez inserts, and Fi-Shock wire stretcher clasps killed them for me. If it ain't rattly, it ain't a rolley. "Pardon me sir, is that a rolex?" "No, but good guess." "What is it if I may ask?" "It's a genuine Invictex!" Prototype oys lock clasp...

"Who remembers Paul's "CARZY SALE" (sic)? They were all $100. Then there was Kingwatch, Eddie Lee and River (who got the "better" TW stuff)." I still have some watches from Watchlover David, Paul, and River. WLD...sapphire no date sub (swisseta) Paul...vintage sub, sapphire exp I, sapphire GMT, 36mm 'too big' sapphire AK, 1655 (all swisseta) slightly oversize manual wind Daytona (ST19) River...sapphire exp II, 16600 SD (both swisseta)

"One can understand that from this that they would be interchangeable ?!?" Every 2824 I have is in a running watch but if I run across one without a dial/hands I'll post what I find. What is amazing considering how much I have worked on this stuff...is how little I know. Ha! From J. Borel: ETA 2824-2 DATE DIAL, BLACK ON WHITE @3 02557.2802.00301 ETA 2836-2 DATE DIAL, FLAT @3 02557.2836.P ETA 2836-2 DATE DIAL, CURVED 02557.2836.B Still don't know any more than I did.

"The OOB vintage reps are horrible..." Agree. Wearing one now, cartel '5513' with a Seagull ST16. Put a Clark crystal and DW bez kit on it and drilled the lugs. It looks a little better. Not much. It might fool a kid who had never seen one. Got tired of it running down overnight so I removed the winding rotor/plate, 'pullybone' etc and hand wind it. Now I wonder what will wear out first...winding guts or crown/tube? "...and I have seen some people trying to part with high end franken’s on here lately with no success." I have noticed they are not selling in a hurry and it does worry me a little because I have a few. May have to part them out later on. Otoh a guy looking at an average (or below average) 5512 for $12k might pay $2500 for one in an MBK case with 1570 etc and wear it for years with little ri$k. Look who's talking...I'm wearing the cartel '5513' to keep from banging up the '5512' Franko... Insanity.

"...the price is steep if it's something that doesn't deliver" True. "...what do you know of rotor noise (whizz) and reliability?" Reliability is the BIG question at this price. It sure looks good though.

"I'm not sure how good Yuki's cases are. check them out, ask around." The two cases (5512/5513) I got from Yuki in May 2014 were as good as any I have seen. They are no longer shown on their website but a few other sellers will have similar cases. Read in the rolex section to see who has what. As for 1520 parts...almost all the parts are the same for 1520, 1530, 1560, 1570 except for the escapement parts. Escapement = balance wheel, hairspring, pallet fork, escape wheel, and a few others. Get a rolex parts list for 1530 base movements or for the 1520 and see what you need. The 1530 was the first of the series so all of the similar movements that followed are called 1530 base movements.. 1530 base movements = all the movements above + date, day-date, anti-magnetic, and GMT models with the same 1530 base movement If your balance wheel, hairspring etc is damaged, you will have to use 1520 replacement parts because although the main plates are similar you will can use only 1520 escapement parts. 1520 = non chronometer with flat hairspring 1570 = chronometer with Breguet (overcoil) hairspring Learning about movements is slow, dull going but it can save you a lot of $$ and headaches. The more you know, the less it will cost. Most of the time. Learn all you can before jumping back into the project. Believe it or not many RWG members worked on genuine name brand watches before getting into replicas and Frankensteins. Why would anyone need a head start? Because replicas and Frankensteins are harder to work with.

"No, a 2824 disc will not fit the 2836." Ok, thanks. I looked up the p/n and it showed the same number for both on the Otto Frei website. Here is where I got the p/n: http://www.ofrei.com/page1439.html The 2836 disc is down on the list below the 2824 disc. There are two numbers with the discs...the 2824 disc has 2557/1 and at the bottom of the list it has A/7636. The 2836 disc has the same 2557/1 along with A/8325. Looked in my ETA factory parts list aka "Technical Communication" and it shows p/n 2557/1 as "Date indicator for opening at 3 o'clock" Calibre 2804-2 2824-2 2834-2 2836-2 There must be other numbers or some way to distinguish different date disc colors etc but the factory parts list has only this one p/n. I have not worked on a 2824 in years except to take one apart to make a combo movement for a JMB '1016' a while back and it did not have a date disc on it. Looked for a complete 2824 movement but did not find one. Found a long time missing 'Sicura' Val 7733 with dial/hands though.

"However, don’t expect to get your investment back if you ever decide to sell." Sad but True. Sometimes you can come out better by parting a watch out if it has any high quality parts...Yuki/MBK/Phong, Vn case, Hot Rod dial, fresh swiss ETA etc. Here is one of my very few exceptions: MBK '5512' case with pretty good Yuki dial, rlx 1570, ST bez kit, 'Mary' folded oyster etc. Movement came from a 1550 gold top OPD with a ratty dial, worth maybe $1700 today. I paid $600 for it in November 1995. The '5512' would probably go for $2500 to $2700 so I would be better off to sell it than the 1550 after sticking it back together. Not much worry about the '5512' being sold as genuine later on because of the low class laser letters/numbers and poochy CG. The 1550 case/crown will go for around $250 (the bezel is solid 14k). Here is a 1550 OPD for a little bit more than $1700: eBay item number 283205181620

Both the 2824 and 2836 show p/n 2557/1 for date Indicator (white background/black numbers/date at 3). Same part. The 2824 changes the date slowly and the 2836 flips instantly.

Super fine job! Always wondered... How long does it take, start to finish?

"are case clamps sizes universal in submariner models from different manufacturers?" In my experience...no. The length and width of the clamps depend on the movement type and outer diameter plus the inner diameter and case clamp groove depth of the case. I still use clamps now and then from a long gone supply house, S. LaRose that were offered in assortments 20+ years ago. If I can not find what is needed, I have to make them. I also bought an assortment of 'ETA case clamps and screws' on eBay just to get the screws because they are hard to find. The clamps are Ok but some of them are a tad too wide to fit into the clamp notches in an ETA 28xx but they are easy to narrow down. Something else...I have found quite a few broken case clamps in watches, especially if the clamp has a bend in it or there is not much metal around the screw hole. Case clamps and screws are an unavoidable hassle. Slightly off subject... Here is an example of something worse than the average case clamp hassle: I have a 36mm 18k aftmkt DJ case with three main problems: 1...The dial window is too big for a standard DJ 28mm dial...it is almost 29mm. 2...The threaded case back opening in the case is smaller than a spacer needed to properly hold the movement/dial in place. 3...There is no case clamp groove or a pair of 'stands' in the case for case clamps and the case is probably too thin to cut a groove. Modern genuine gold rolex cases have case clamp/screw 'stands' made in them at two locations but the cases are hogged out to remove as much gold as possible leaving the rest of the case pretty thin. The 'stands' also center the movement in the case. I bought a 'refinished' 30mm dial for a 41mm DJ that will work in the case along with an oversize date wheel overlay...both from eBay. Now I have two choices: 1...Have gold case clamp stands laser welded inside the case...probably $150 or so with the chance of a mistake. This might be the best option though. 2...Make a brass or aluminum spacer that will hold the movement/dial combo tight against the front of the case. This spacer will have to exert force only on the movement by fitting against the slight ledge on the OD of the movement with no actual force applied to the dial by the spacer...the movement supplies the pressure to hold the dial against the front of the case. Since the case back gasket is an O ring type and the case back screws down against the case, I could make a spacer that holds the movement/dial against the front of the case and also serves as a dial mount...genuine 41mm DJ dial feet go into a metal spacer mounted around the outside diameter of the movement like the plastic spacer on an ETA 2834 day at 12 movement. This would involve precise machine work on the spacer and maybe 2 or 3 tries to get it right. It would also have to center the movement in the case somehow. If I did this, the spacer will have to supply downward force on the movement/dial from the case back so it will need some sort of tension device...maybe a large diameter (lubricated?) O ring fitted into a groove in the spacer that compresses when the case back is screwed down or something similar. When this method is used there also needs to be some way to prevent the movement from turning inside the case breaking the stem and scuffing the dial when the back is screwed down. I have some 3mm thick dive watch case back O rings in an assortment that may work (never saw a watch that used them this thick). Some watches use a spacer with a leaf spring similar to a bezel spring that rubs against the case back to supply downward pressure but a spring might dig into the soft 18k case back. Having clamp stands welded into the case might be the best bet but it will still need a spacer of some sort to center the movement in the case or make the stands do it. It came with a day-date dial on an ETA 2834 with an oversize dial and plastic spacer...a first class case with a third class movement mounting system.

"+ 100 and I must agree ... though you don't like Air-Kings" Ha! I do like AKs and still have a few...5500 type and 14000M/14010M (M = cal 3130). I gathered the 5500 models up when they were fairly cheap and the 'M's when they were not very popular...plus one lonely 1002, now with a Yuki 'Explorer' dial. I even have a few replica oversize 36mm AKs from years past with 3-6-9 dials like an Explorer. I have worn a black dial 36mm AK rep quite a bit and never had anyone notice it was too big, not even rolex types. Now genuine AKs have swelled up to 40mm and the 'too big' 3-6-9 Explorers are too small.

"She has a few that you can pick from that are pretty sad looking." I too have noticed some of the higher priced dial offerings from the so called 'Premier Dealers" are not too hot. "When I asked about a nicer (dial) there was a 500 min $24.95 Per." Probably the same dials with better QC. My guess is the 'Premier Dealers' and dial makers are all in cahoots and the dial makers sell to them almost exclusively. "I just don’t think there’s magic to the guys that have the market cornered." I have a friend in the printing business and he figured it would cost $3000 to $5000 to get started in the dial printing business (dials without applied markers), including 2 or 3 cliché plates but not counting the dial blanks. He also said the same thing I did...applying the lume is the ONE thing that requires special training and/or practice. His estimate was for a high quality manually operated precision pad printer setup...not a low priced unit from eBay. Not counting the cost of the pad printer, each dial would probably cost $20 to $40 to make if you apply your own lume. If the dials are good enough to sell for $150 each...there is $$ to be made after paying for the printer. If a dial has two or more colors of letters/markers it means each dial will have to be printed 2 or 3 times so a high precision pad printer is required. You will also need an air brush and compressor to paint the dial blanks plus paint, thinner, print ink, and lume material. If you want 'Singer' Beyeler' etc stamped on the dial blanks, it will require a custom made stamp of some sort. A dedicated hobbyist could master the pad printing 'art' in a few months...if they were serious about it and have good eye to hand coordination and dexterity.

Outstanding job! "But there are several operations to transform it like that: shaving of the rear side, cutting of the groove and shaping of the case back seat." For anyone needing to tell at a glance if a 1016 case is genuine (or a very good copy), look for the slight groove around the case where the case back seats as noted by Rolojack. Since it is hard to duplicate, not many replicas or Frankensteins will have it. No guarantees though. Here is a picture showing the groove in a 1960 model along with the '4th grader' lettering on the case band, original brass reversers, and butterfly rotor weight: https://www.hqmilton.com/timepieces/j0ngylog/1960-rolex-explorer-1-1016-3748 No telling how much someone paid for this watch but a 1016 of this year model and in the same condition would have been around $1000/$1500 25 years ago. Now they are $10k to $20k! Imho this is a good reason to stick one together with a JMB etc case and Eta for an everyday watch. Another reason...you see dozens of 'bezel watches' (submariners) here and there but almost never a 1016. What's the down side? They look like Air Kings. "The 1560 mvmt is a pleasant surprise!! Yes it is. I have most of the parts to put one together but can not find a suitable case. Thought about having a genuine 162xx case modified and re-lettered but do not have the right connections. Have a couple 162xx cases with lug holes and since they were made for a 3135, a no date 1560/70 will fit right in one. The dial seat is the right size for a 1016 dial and the groove for the case back gasket is cut in the case like a 1016. Also have a couple nos tritium dials and hand sets plus crowns, crystals etc. The case would need the lug tops (aka 'shoulders') thinned down, the groove cut around the back of the case like 1016 cases, a bezel cut for a 25-22 crystal, and new numbers/letters. Finding a properly stamped case back would also be a problem. Another catch...my 1570 no hack movement has the letter 'D' at the beginning of the serial number and the 'D' means it was originally a Date movement. I've had the parts for 20+ years, They were just gathered up as 'parts' and not intended for a '1016' project but now the 1016 is Hot. Should have bought a 1016 back then. ...and a 6263 or two. Passed on a 6263 all apart but complete for $1600 waaay back.

Here is a good price on new 25 jewel ETA 7750 movements: eBay item number 223166629256 $290 USD + $10 shipping from Switzerland.

My second post in this thread... Patek Philippe. Why? I have owned a few in the past and they are very expensive (for little reason imho), fragile as a baby's breath, and PP = Patek Parts. The Nautilus is nice but I always see $5k repair bills in the future. The old models had JLC 920 movements in them...also used by AP and VC, but not by JLC. The 920 is known for being thin but not overly reliable...basically an ebauche for snob brands. A replica with a 9120 is a better bet imho.

"Hmm with all due respect the heavy hitters from Vietnam now are ten times the quality of the old fellas in the market." I understand that. Paul's $10 dials were only an example of how little an average dial cost to make 12/15 years ago. Today a first rate dial probably cost $40 to $60 to make in VN...or less. "Honestly on a level to be par with genuine manufacturers." They are good all right. Probably as good as the 1960s/1970s genuine dials. The process is the same for $30 dials and $300 dials...a pad printer, dial blanks, and a few drones to do the work. Stamp 'Singer' on the blank, solder the dial feet to the blank, paint the dial, stamp the letters, apply the lume. Applying the lume is the only hard thing about it. No applied markers or anything out of the ordinary to fool with, just $3 to $5 in material and a couple hour's work. On a crude production line they can probably turn out 40 or 50 a day. Maybe more. One main thing that determines how close a repdial is to original is how close the cliché plate is to the genuine dial to start with. "honestly MQ, phong, ruby etc... could be spot on if they pay attention to detail." One problem (imho) could be they might not want to get it right in one whack. If they get a little bit better every year, think how many more dials they can sell. I have one genuine Mk I Lemrich 1680 dial. It is no better that my 1680 dial from IG44...except it has tritium markers and looks older. I would rather have the IG44 dial on an otherwise genuine 1680 than a modern 'genuine' dial with 'swiss' at the bottom. After all, it is not really 'genuine' either. It's a rerun. I do not like 'genuine' 44xxxx replacement cases very much either. How can you tell one from a professionally finished replica case? A Yuki 5513 case with 44xxxx serial number might pass after it has been worn a few years. Here is a Lemrich Mk I dial: http://rolexpassionmarket.com/watches/rolex-1680-submariner-fantastic-mk1-lemrich-dial-circa-1977/

"I agree on the random high prices. It's starting to [censored] me off." Yeah. Me too. How does Raff sell a fair dial for $30 and one a little bit better from someone else is $250? When 'Paul' was in business, his dials were $10 and free delivery. Ten Bucks! Not that hot by today's standards, but only $10.

"What if they didn't have Lucas electrics?" They didn't call Joseph Lucas 'The Prince of Darkness' for nothing. I had Ducati and Norton motorcycles when I was a kid. Only thing worse than Lucas was Magneti Marelli. They didn't call Ercole Marelli any nick names. People just went into cussin' fits when Marelli was mentioned. What do you call a Ducati with Marelli electronics? A statue.

One good thing about 1655 dials is they are not very 'pretty' to begin with (imho) so a good repdial usually looks fine. Two things to look for: Make sure the outer row of lume markers reach right up to the edge of the reflector area (aka rehaut). Some repdials leave too much space and it is a quick tell. Be sure the movement/dial combo is securely mounted in the case because the lume on the outer markers can get scuffed away if the dial/mvt slides back and forth when setting etc. This depends on how much 'wiggle room' there is to begin with. Aftmkt cases may have more space between the movement and case than genuine. "Also if anyone knows of a 1575 or 1570 GMT movement send me a mesg lol ... i have one but it is toast.. I didnt pay much for it thinking it would be rebuildable but it isnt lol" GMT parts are very hard to come by so if your movement is a correct 1575GMT there are quite a few very hard to get parts on it. If you have all the GMT parts, changing a regular 1570/1575 out to GMT is fairly easy. Here is the parts list again if you did not save it: https://rwg.cc/topic/191728-planing-steve-mcqueen-1655-project/

"KIF is a Rolex designed technology of shock protection system." Tip: If anyone needs KIF parts, look at other brands. Bulova for one used them in quite a few movements. Rlx also used Duofix. It's Ok but it is easy to damage the 'wishbone' shock spring without some practice. The 'wishbone' stays in the setting, all you want to do is unhook the 'handle' by gently prying it away from the inner edge of the setting. Then the jewels will come out.

"...I no longer need to wear the Genuine collectible big$$$$$ watch when the high quality replica of the same model gives me the same buzz at a fraction of the price!!!" I see it the same way. Besides that, I put my 'tool watches' together out of a pile of parts. There is some pride in that even if it is a replica...especially when the average guy wearing a mech watch today has no idea what makes it tick. "Companies are now making reproduction assault rifles with the same veracity of the best rep watch makers." I did not know this, I am not much of a gun guy now like I used to be. Still have my Dad's M1 and 1911 from WW II.

"Nostalgic? Me?? Never." That looks like the Marlin Perkins edition... His buddy Stan Brock went RIP a few weeks back. Brock used to come by the watch trading table and try to 'recruit' us for his Remote Area Medical service. They had a DC3 back then.

Imho... The accepted rule is something is 'worth' what an informed buyer will pay. Maybe yes, maybe no. Take vintage rolex watches for example...25 years ago a 5513 or 1680 was 'worth' maybe $1500USD. Now the same watches are 'worth' $10,000 or more. They are the same watches (with 25 more years of wear and tear) for sale during a different time, that's all. Inflation would make today's prices around $3000 not $10,000 or more. Why are buyers willing to pay so much today? Maybe they just want to be trendy by wearing an old 'tool watch'. Most of today's vintage rlx buyers are too young to remember when the watches they are paying $10k+ for sold for $400 new. Every generation has its legions of buyers who will pay the price to go back in time. My generation buys 1960s/70s American musclecars for 10x to 50x what they sold for new. They remember when the cars were new in showrooms but they did not have the money to buy one. Why do they pay so much for an old car today? Probably because they are Nostalgic. I was a car freak in the 1960s and 1970s but I would not give $100 for an old car today if I had to drive it everyday and keep it up. Why? Because I remember the $400 '55, '56, '57 Chevrolets I had back then with maybe 80,000 actual miles on the clock. The door hinges sagged and you had to pick up on the door and stuff it in the door frame, the suspension was all worn out, the differential gears whined like a wild Panther in heat, the brakes would not stop the car in half a mile, they went around curves like a three legged dog, the window regulators were all shot so the windows were half way down in the winter, the vacuum windshield wipers stopped when you accelerated, the engines were on their second or third set of rings and bearings, the valves were loose in the guides and the floppy rocker arms mushroomed the valve spring tips, the cam lobes usually had flat spots, the ignition points always needed setting, and the cars rattled like a truck full of hub caps. I guess I am a little bit nostalgic...enough to have a 55xx Frankenstein. Are you nostalgic?

"The gasket question ended up in an engine repair thread. How is that now?" Well... JB Weld came up as a possible solution to seal a case neck...to keep water (a liquid) OUT of a case. Next JBW came up as a solution to keeping water (a liquid) IN a radiator. Then JBW came up in a subject about keeping oil (a liquid) IN a case. Thereby making all the INS and OUTS closely related by...wait for it...JB Weld! I rest my JB Welded case.