cc33 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 http://nickhacko.blogspot.ca/2012/05/tough-times-ahead-for-collectors-of.html?m=1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Very interesting indeed. That's exactly what makes me very gun-shy about buying anything "gen". I've been tempted recently with a couple of watches and even posted on the price of gens being low on certain models. However, I'm afraid to end up with a Franken and never know!!! At least when I buy a Franken here, I know what it is and what it's worth. As I said before, I've seen 2 red subs near the $8k point lately. That's a lot of money but still... Hard to tell if its all gen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke1973 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Is that Yuki"s website? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromag Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Very informative. Thanks for posting that info on vintage Rolex authenticity issues. Yes, factory would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tabularasa415 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Duke, I was wondering the same thing! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ephry73 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 That's indeed Yuki's site. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denimhead Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Wheres this guy been for the last 10 years??? Hopefully what it will do is make the price of the Gen Vintage Sports models realistic within the market place again. Over the years I've owned Gens and some very nice Frankens. I've personally had more pleasure out of collecting the -parts to build the Frankens for a realistic price, rather than owning the over inflated Gens. The prices on what i call second generation sports models ie - 16570 are certainly dropping, just over £2000.00 will bag you one from various Vendors on www.chrono24.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polexpete Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 The ludicrous prices of vintage Rolex watches and parts means this is an inevitable consequence. Its a reality check. Hopefully people paying 3k for a painted disc with Rolex written on it will become a thing of the past and put the 3k into something a bit more meaningful ,... Cheers P. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panerai153 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 This is a huge problem, and ewill get even worse as time goes on. While the author holds out some hope that Rolex will join the fray, I don't think it will happen. Rolex SA is in the business of selling new watches, They aren't interested in spending a lot of time and money setting up and authentication department for 50 year old watches. They won't even respond to simple requests like "was the white dial 6542 ever produced for Pan Am, or is this just a myth"? As the vintage Rolex watches get older and parts get scarcer and scarcer, you will see more and more aftermarket parts being used sometimes out of necessity, often times to defraud. Honestly,If I was in a position to buy really valuable vintage Rolex watches, I would not do so unless the watch could be authenticated by someone who is much more knowledgable about all the variants and nuances of that particular model. As the writer stated, a dial upgrade may make the selling price several K higher, but if it is detected by and expert, it immediately lowers the price dramatically. If it turns out to be and aftermarket dial, you are just out of luck!! Possibly as was stated above, the lack of authentication will drive down the prices of vintage rolex watches. I believe that wat will hapen is the same with all collectibles. If you have something in very good condition with an impeccable provenence, the values will hold and in fact go up.Watches that have no history, are difficult to authenticate, and/or have known non original or aftermarket parts will not be as valuable. This in itself creates a problem. What about the watch that has been back to a RSC several times over it's lifespan and is now on it's third crystal, second crown/tube an has a service dial and replacement hands? Will that watch be penalized as an "orphan" because it's not in it's original "from the factory" condition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 The author makes some good (though a bit hackneyed, for those who have been collecting for awhile) points. However, if vintage Rolex watches/parts were cheap & easily accessible, they would be Coach. And who wants a Coach (not me). Anyone who has seen the travesties employed against vintage Rolex watches by so-called indy 'Master' watchmakers can understand why Rolex has taken such seemingly draconian measures to protect their brand. Though, as an amateur watchmaker, I can see the other side, too. After all, many competent watchmakers are being pushed out of business by Rolex's actions. What is the answer? Probably, the best option would be for Rolex to begin supporting their vintage models (like Patek & Mercedes do) with service & parts availability, at least within their own service network. That way, vintage Rolex owners would not be forced, increasingly, to turn to the dark side (non-Rolex sources) for parts & repairs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
denimhead Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 While we're on the subject regarding the future of Rolex, I rang Rolex UK in Bexley about a week ago to check up on the history of a potentual purchase by a friend of mine who's not that experienced with the purchase of high end watches. Guess what Rolex had to say, "Sorry but we no longer provide that service Sir" So in a nut shell if i go out and buy a privately owned secondhand Rolex tomorrow, a couple of years later when I decide to take it into my local AD for a service, I may be faced with the situation that in fact the watch has been stolen in the past. There goes my hard earned dough. Not sure if this policy is a Worldwide decision but makes collecting Rolex here in the UK one hell of a risk going forward. As Panerai 153 has mentioned Rolex are really only interested in selling new watches, personally I wouldn't give anything they currently offer the time of day. The only glimmer of hope and Taste in my humble opinion is what Tudor have managed to acheive recently. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Rolex Bexley is only following the business model that began in Rolex New York (with the assistance of the (supposedly anti-monopolistic) US government) in the early 90s. Up until a few years ago, I could still buy parts from Bexley & other Rolex centers in the EU. But that has changed. And, unfortunately, I believe this policy (of not providing support for vintage models (those made more than 30 years ago)) is becoming Rolex company policy internationally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielv2000 Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 I like the idea of buying an inexpensive Airking and converting it into an Explorer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cc33 Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 This topic is very interesting, rolex wants to maintain control over their parts and customers but in doing so are alienating some and making it very difficult as some have mentioned to get parts. The person who wrote the article also made a good point in saying that the cheaper and more readily available quality replacement parts become, the more it is hurting the vintage market and I would have to agree. Here is another article from him about the problems with parts. http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/rolex-insists-parts-ban-is-about-quality-not-monopoly/story-e6frg6nf-1226368723296 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zaza Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I like the idea of buying an inexpensive Airking and converting it into an Explorer. Lol, EXACTLY! Sent from my using Tapatalk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 I tried to leave a comment pointing out that Rolex exists to make money from people stupid enough to pay £3000 for a watch which costs less than £300 to make, not to verify provenance of everything ever sold. It hasn't been approved, so I guess Nick didn't appreciate that feedback Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieselpower Posted October 3, 2012 Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 There is an overlap here with the classic car world. Rep car parts have been available for years, highly reputable replicas exist (Pur Sang Bugattis for example) and have become well respected in their own right. As always cars with proven provenance always command the highest prices but most people have also come to accept that if a certain part is no longer available and a rep part is your only choice then far better to keep the old car running than to leave it to rot. I mean after all its only a piece of steel or rubber or whatever. I personally have no particular hankering for gen pieces. I like the hunting down of parts. I like 'designing' the build in my head and all that stuff and when you get your piece back from the skilled people here who can work their magic I love showing it off to the world and telling them that I had the watch made. Also the two fingered salute to Rolex et al is quite satisfying too Long live the rep watch, whatever the percentage of gen parts they may or may not contain. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronin Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I have said it in many posts here before, but ONLY in the Rolex world do I see this level of craziness. While I fully support true collectors with their safe queen's of providence, they represent a small portion of Rolex buyers IMHO. I would rather have 5 GEN/Geninstein's missing B&P instead of 1 GEN Rolex as the budget would allow. Like the automotive comparisons, stuff wears out and breaks. That said a healthy aftermarket is a GOOD THING. I would love to see dozens of broken Rolex's retrofitted with ETA Style movements. It sends a big fsck you to Rolex, and people who think Rolex transcends a "regular watch". I would love to see indie watchsmiths advertising "Rolex Movement Swaps" right next to their "Battery Replacement" signs. (There is technically NOTHING ILLEGAL or CRIMINAL about this. It is your personal property. It is no different than dropping a VW Bug engine into a Porsche 356. If there is no attempt to defraud, it should even be legal on eBay if fully disclosed.) One thing I like about the Panerai crowd is their willingness to change to aftermarket straps as if it is a badge of courage. In the Rolex world, you could use a $30 legal/non-infringing aftermarket Oyster bracelet, or cool strap, which is probably better quality than its 30yr old counterpart-- but because it is missing the coronet on the clasp, your otherwise GEN watch is branded as fake by Douche' McDouche' who paid $1100 at the AD for his replacement 93150. It's cockeyed.... I love, love, love vintage Rolex aesthetic. How I satisfy my itch is up to me. I have NO LOVE for "Rolex Corporation" these days. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freddy333 Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 I would love to see dozens of broken Rolex's retrofitted with ETA Style movements...............I would love to see indie watchsmiths advertising "Rolex Movement Swaps" right next to their "Battery Replacement" signs...............It is no different than dropping a VW Bug engine into a Porsche 356. The problem with the wholesale frankenstein-ing of gen Rolexes is that you end up turning them into Coach bags--a nice product that is (price) accessible to all (as opposed to an exclusive luxury item). Once the price of admission falls to the level where just about anyone can afford 1, they lose their aspirational appeal & fewer people actually buy 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBOGH Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 Interesting read. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blue. Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 ... Once the price of admission falls to the level where just about anyone can afford 1, they lose their aspirational appeal & fewer people actually buy 1. A threatening fact! When the "mystery" around a special brand gets washed out, all of us would "loose". The Brand itself, the buyers of the gen product and at last us (the rep collectors, franken modders and vice versa). Rolex stands for top quality, historic heritage roots, tradition, eliteness, adventure, limited affordability and so on. The more the brand gets a mass presence, the more it loses from that special appeal. Rolex wouldn´t be the same if there weren´t also the celebrities (Ian Flemming, Paul Newman, Steve Mcqueen ...). They have created a unique appearance around wearing a Rolex as result we all want to be part of that history. Chances are slim that Rolex would loose this majesty lead, but the brand gambles with it pretty hard. An important part of maintaining a cult Brand is the loyalty to the customer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
By-Tor Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 You can easily authenticate your watch when you hand it over to the service. When I swapped the insert and regulated my 16710 they took all information of my watch into their database, even the bracelet serial number. I bought it from the UK and obviously it wasn't stolen. They even had a record of its previous service in Birmingham. They wanted to "confiscate" the old insert but I demanded it back because it's my property. I demanded it with an angry tone. I'm not sure if I agree with the "overpriced" argument though. 3185, for example, is a fine & extremely functional complication movement. If it's supposedly "overpriced", which competitors can offer anything better for lower prices? And I'm talking about companies who use inhouse movements. Yeah... that's your argument there. Why aren't Breguet and Patek overpriced... even though they make watches that cost 10 times more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromatic Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 (edited) We are taking this too seriously and in the process taking the fun out of our hobbie lets build our watches for our own entertainment so if our watches have gen or aftermarket parts we appreciate a super franken or a low build rep , i have noticed that some new members come here all stressed out and ask should i fit a gen case gen dial gen crown and so on build your watch to your own pocket there is nothing wrong with a low cost rep or a rep upgraded to aftermarket parts (im going off topic here appologies) rolex should realise that they (SELL) there watches not rent them so a rolex owner should be able to have is watch repaired by any watch repairer he chooses and the watchmaker/repairer should be able to have parts supplied to none ADs and being a classic car restorer myself this has been said above after market parts have been accepted in the classic car community ,parts are re-manufactured as the original factory do not exist or dont supply vintage parts of cause there are those that will say that the car is now not original and so on and its the same with vintage watches more and more watches have aftermarket parts finished there are restorers and those who prefer to leave there watch dial faded and aged but a gen watch with aftermarket or refinished parts does that make your watch a fake? and who decides that ,is there an offical gen or fake offically cerified body? Edited October 4, 2012 by aeromatic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeJay Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 The problem with the wholesale frankenstein-ing of gen Rolexes is that you end up turning them into Coach bags--a nice product that is (price) accessible to all (as opposed to an exclusive luxury item). Once the price of admission falls to the level where just about anyone can afford 1, they lose their aspirational appeal & fewer people actually buy 1. I think you've forgotten that Rolex were originally tool watches which were accessible... The way the company operates today, and some of the bejewelled abortions Rolex have released, Wildorf is probably spinning in his grave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janeto72 Posted October 4, 2012 Report Share Posted October 4, 2012 What I like about this whole topic is that today with the internet you can pretty much source all the parts to build a superfraken or a gen from scratch for 30-35% of the value of a gen original.Some of the gens are out of the price range of most of us...but if you save up and buy your parts piece by piece you "roll" with the"big players" without paying the cost for it......the gen guys know this and don't like it.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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