The Time has Come to Say Something....

[CISO1969]

Buy all of the watches? You must be kidding. The dealer must be lying to you... The Maker makes more than 1000 pieces of those watches. How can anyone eat up all of the stocks?

Andrew

One may no be able to do so...but four operating together certainly could!

Also, someone answer this for me. Aren't all the ETA movemements used in our reps "refurbished" or what they call "Surplus" ? Are they claiming they are using brand new unused ETA movements in the reps?

CISO

Edited March 28, 2007 by CISO1969

[olga]

The naming conventions used in china don't mean anything here, and with the amount of traffic this thread and LWL thread received, everyone knows it. This ridiculous naming should end. Maybe when dealing with chinese customers and suppliers you need to use or understand these naming conventions, but when you post on your english language website that something is what it is not, you should be made aware of it. Because now you are even doing it when it doesn't mean a higher priced item. I give the following examples "New for March":

http://watchwindersworld.com/omse10031-pla...0bp-p-2469.html

And Trusty has it for the same price, but showed it openned, but only with the anti-magnetic cover in place, hiding the movement:

http://www.ttwristwatch.com/index.php?main...roducts_id=1202

Now for a little analysis

"Asia ETA 2824-2 28,800bp"

Asia - Well this part is true. This movement is definately made in asia.

ETA - A swiss company having nothing to do with this movement. Include design, build or even inspiration.

2824-2 - A specific movement model number made by the aforementioned swiss company

28,800bp - True again

This movement is the DG 2813-2S. It's design is based on the 8215 movement manufactured by Miyota, but the beat has been increased to 28.8 and it is 22 jewels instead of 21. I'm not saying anything about the quality of the movement, but it has nothing to do with ETA whatsoever. When in it's earlier incarnation, you guys simple called it an asia 21j movement. You could even call it an asian 28.8 miyota copy. Clone has too much of a different meaning. BTW, isn't this the same movement from the B&R that was an asia 2892 clone?

Edited March 28, 2007 by olga

[Physher007]

I have a business - that is why I chose not to replicate watches. If someone were to come to me asking for legal advice I wouldn't con money out of them and then say "If you don't like it, go to law school".

But I don't think that is the issue here. The dealers that are being discussed aren't run of the mill replica watch salesman, they are supposed to be trusted - and that is why they are supported here. What do we have if we cannot trust our dealers?

[Corgi]

I think an important step would be to list the watches which these dealers are trying to sell exploitatively, and in big red text on every one of these forums exercise a boycott of them. The dealers will get the message the only way they can see it... but that is an extreme measure to be taken here.

I have had nothing but good experiences with Joshua. All of the watches he has sent me run well, keep good time, and all work well so far *knock on wood*.

Inside all of the watches are ETA if listed ETA, asian 21J if listed as such, etc... no lies.

He has displayed to me nothing but pure kindness which I must forward to members visiting this thread. I don't know if it means much coming from me, Corgi, a dog of all things, but I can tell you that Joshua is a good dealer who is certainly trustworthy and kind. All of the dealers on this message board have had threads pop up accusing them of perpetrating a fraud in some way or another - with these four gentlemen, it's obvious something would come up, but in a much bigger fashion.

Anyway... all I can say is that I can't way to get more clocks from my main man in chi-town, Josh, who has been a trusted partner throughout my voyage into the replica world.

[deltatahoe]

given all the re-hashing of the b&r situation in this thread, i thought i would share what i think the following is a pretty reasonable theory as to what happened with the b&r. if you've had enough with all the discussion of the b&r, feel free to skip my theory and read my other conclusions below, which i feel like are more relevant to the primary discussion at hand.

-----------begin conspiracy theory-----------

the 1:1 b&r watch was a joint project between andrew and josh. in reading his posts about the way that project ended up going, my guess is that in an effort to make a 1:1 copy of the original, andrew and josh racked up some serious costs, and in order to even have a fighting chance of making a (small) profit on this watch, they had to cut costs where possible (ie. finding what they felt was an acceptable cheap movement to put in the watch).

knowing their costs and how many watches they had available, it would have been clear what they would have to charge per watch to recoup their costs. so they set the price of the watch accordingly. up until this point, i believe there is nothing wrong with this story. if a dealer commissions a project (or multiple dealers for that matter), they should be free to charge whatever they want for it. this is not the behavior of a cartel (which i discuss a little more later).

however, where (according to my theory) things went wrong is when josh and trusty probably realized that they would have a hard time selling enough of the 1:1 b&r watches at these high prices if people knew it had an inexpensive (cheap?) asian movement inside, so they called it an ETA 2892 instead (cleverly omitting swiss in front of ETA). not surprisingly, they didn't bother taking pictures of the movement. oh, and why not throw superlumed dial in the description -- that should help too -- everyone loves watches with superlume. the rest is history.

-----------end conspiracy theory-----------

given the huge response to this thread, it is clear that everyone is concerned about this whole situation, with particular concern about dealers knowingly misrepresenting their products to fuel sales of said product. i think this is really at the heart of everyone's concern. the only way i see our concerns being relieved is by the dealers demonstrating better behavior in the future, so personally i don't see how banning them is going help anything.

i would like to think that based upon what happened with the 1:1 b&r misrepresentation, no one has purchased this watch since it was exposed. this is the most effective way to effect change in the dealers' behavior -- if you misrepresent items, we simply will not buy them. for this reason, i think crystalcranium's suggestion of the dealer scams suggestion is a good one. this subforum could serve as a place to help the community recognize the misrepresentations as they occur, at which point the best way to ensure they don't happen again would be if no one purchased that particular item.

inevitably, some people will ultimately make a judgement that despite the misrepresentations, the watch is still worth the stated price and buy the item (as evidenced by jomama's purchase of the seamaster aqua terra). at least in this case individuals would have full knowledge of what is actually being sold, and RWG will have served its purpose of protecting people from scams.

deltatahoe

(conspiracy theorist)

ps, here are my thoughts re: potential cartel issues (similar underlying theme to my conclusion above):

if people truly believe and are concerned that we are dealing with a cartel on certain items (the breitling steelfish superocean being the primary watch in question), and prices on said items are being artificially inflated, then the only way we will see these actions change (ie. stop the price fixing) would be if everyone boycotts the purchase of these items at the artificially inflated prices.

such a boycott could be compared to unions and strikes: the union (RWG community) only has power to the extent it is able to speak as one voice, which requires everyone to stick together despite the suffering that might entail. to the extent people are willing to accept the current situation, it only weakens the case for the remainder of the community.

pss, in reading the tone of andrew's responses (see his post here), i think andrew really doesn't feel like he is in the wrong with regard to the b&r situation. whether he is right about thinking so is another matter.

[seank1]

given all the re-hashing of the b&r situation in this thread, i thought i would share what i think the following is a pretty reasonable theory as to what happened with the b&r. if you've had enough with all the discussion of the b&r, feel free to skip my theory and read my other conclusions below, which i feel like are more relevant to the primary discussion at hand.

-----------begin conspiracy theory-----------

the 1:1 b&r watch was a joint project between andrew and josh. in reading his posts about the way that project ended up going, my guess is that in an effort to make a 1:1 copy of the original, andrew and josh racked up some serious costs, and in order to even have a fighting chance of making a (small) profit on this watch, they had to cut costs where possible (ie. finding what they felt was an acceptable cheap movement to put in the watch).

knowing their costs and how many watches they had available, it would have been clear what they would have to charge per watch to recoup their costs. so they set the price of the watch accordingly. up until this point, i believe there is nothing wrong with this story. if a dealer commissions a project (or multiple dealers for that matter), they should be free to charge whatever they want for it. this is not the behavior of a cartel (which i discuss a little more later).

however, where (according to my theory) things went wrong is when josh and trusty probably realized that they would have a hard time selling enough of the 1:1 b&r watches at these high prices if people knew it had an inexpensive (cheap?) asian movement inside, so they called it an ETA 2892 instead (cleverly omitting swiss in front of ETA). not surprisingly, they didn't bother taking pictures of the movement. oh, and why not throw superlumed dial in the description -- that should help too -- everyone loves watches with superlume. the rest is history.

-----------end conspiracy theory-----------

given the huge response to this thread, it is clear that everyone is concerned about this whole situation, with particular concern about dealers knowingly misrepresenting their products to fuel sales of said product. i think this is really at the heart of everyone's concern. the only way i see our concerns being relieved is by the dealers demonstrating better behavior in the future, so personally i don't see how banning them is going help anything.

i would like to think that based upon what happened with the 1:1 b&r misrepresentation, no one has purchased this watch since it was exposed. this is the most effective way to effect change in the dealers' behavior -- if you misrepresent items, we simply will not buy them. for this reason, i think crystalcranium's suggestion of the dealer scams suggestion is a good one. this subforum could serve as a place to help the community recognize the misrepresentations as they occur, at which point the best way to ensure they don't happen again would be if no one purchased that particular item.

inevitably, some people will ultimately make a judgement that despite the misrepresentations, the watch is still worth the stated price and buy the item (as evidenced by jomama's purchase of the seamaster aqua terra). at least in this case individuals would have full knowledge of what is actually being sold, and RWG will have served its purpose of protecting people from scams.

deltatahoe

(conspiracy theorist)

ps, here are my thoughts re: potential cartel issues (similar underlying theme to my conclusion above):

if people truly believe and are concerned that we are dealing with a cartel on certain items (the breitling steelfish superocean being the primary watch in question), and prices on said items are being artificially inflated, then the only way we will see these actions change (ie. stop the price fixing) would be if everyone boycotts the purchase of these items at the artificially inflated prices.

such a boycott could be compared to unions and strikes: the union (RWG community) only has power to the extent it is able to speak as one voice, which requires everyone to stick together despite the suffering that might entail. to the extent people are willing to accept the current situation, it only weakens the case for the remainder of the community.

pss, in reading the tone of andrew's responses (see his post here), i think andrew really doesn't feel like he is in the wrong with regard to the b&r situation. whether he is right about thinking so is another matter.

I won't boycott buying the watches I'll boycott buying from them. PT has got the Steelfish and EVo in stock as do a few others. I'll buy from him at get this "a premium" just to be told the truth. Please don't bring up the gold topic. I think PT did a good job of explaining himself. "His word is as good as gold"

Sean K

[Steve G]

I think PT did a good job of explaining himself. "His word is as good as gold"

Sean K

I assume you mean Angus of PureTime, not Precious Time, because his word is not good as gold (literally) as some may recall the TT solid gold [censored]. He may have apologized but never issued any refunds to the best of my knowledge.

[pollux1]

Until this is resolved to the satisfaction of the board, i'll not be purchasing anything from the aforementioned "cartel"

Something tells me that if enough of us do the same, it won't be long before things are put right.

[TwoTone]

The Time is Drawing Near...

[JCM1662]

wholy [censored] - word on the dark side was that this thread was hot, but WOW, i just read it all.

This will not go away anytime soon....

My only advice - cooler heads will always prevail!

[Guest TTK]

All I can say about the concerned parties....is..!

"Ya couple o' fannies"....!

[Tim]

Well! That was a lot to slog through. I didn't feel comfortable saying anything until I read the entire thread to ensure that none of my messages would be out of sequence.

I have one comment and one bit of information to add to the mystery.

My comment is that all I expect from the dealers is for them to be honest about what they are selling. And I think that is what everyone is saying. No sly little euphemisms or tricky language. Just say it like it is and I'll decide what I want. To add to that is that I wish the dealers would understand that there are multiple strata of buyers running around these forums. I am willing to pay extra for an honest QC which produces a consistent quality level. I am willing to pay extra for top quality movements. But there may be times, and it may be that some can only afford, a lesser movement or some inherent flaws in the reproduction. But the goods need to be described honestly. Sometimes I just want a watch to destroy so I can learn about them. I think the dealers would find that all their different product lines and quality levels will still sell. And everyone would be a lot happier.

I'd just be happy to get a well QC'd watch that has the parts as advertised. I just bought two YMs from a cartel dealer. I bought a higher quality "serviced" watch and on a subsequent order bought the same model not serviced. The serviced model cost almost twice as much. The unserviced watch keeps better time and has fewer "variances" from a gen (misaligned dial markers, sharp edges, and the like). So what did my extra money get me? Absolutely nothing that I can tell and if anyone asked me I'd tell them to buy the unserviced version and save your money.

So the bottom line in this for me is that all the dealers need to keep sight about the value added services. They could probably make more money if they offer a properly QC, mod'ed and serviced watch. Think along the lines of Davidson except perhaps a little more communicative (for the life of me I can't get Davidson to say what he has done to the watches he sells but they are obviously of a higher quality than the norm). The Zigmeister and others might not be as busy, but I am sure there is enough work out there for everyone.

For the tidbit of information. This is from a message I got from Angus. I post it very hesitantly because I am not especially comfortable with the ethics of reposting a private message. But this speaks too much towards the current situation such that I feel compelled:

--------------------------------------

EDITED: There was a copy of a private message between me and one of the dealers here. I felt that the message was extremely applicable to the conversation in this thread and I posted a copy although normally I wouldn't disclose a private message. The other party to the message however requested that I remove the message and that he didn't agree with making the conversation public. I felt ethically obliged to honor the request. Sorry. /Tim

------------------------------------------------

Interesting? Helps explain anything??

/Tim

Edited March 29, 2007 by Tim

[AMK000]

The below is the e-mail I received from Joshua of perfect-clones aka WatchWindersWorld.

I asked if he could get me a better price on the Breitling Chronomat Evo.

After that e-mail, I just stopped buying from those 4 dealers.

Whatever they say is NOT justified, because they charge at least 200%-300% of the GuangZhou street price, and who knows how much more they charge out of factory price.

---------e-mail from joshua-------------

HI ,

Sorry .. no deal..you will not get this watch other than andrew, angus, king and me..

Quit trying cos we have all tied down the price..

thanks

joshua

So far I have tried to stay out of this conversation (and topic) since there are things and opinions that I share and others that I dont....... but this reply

[Edge]

I feel like a parrot. Prices are NOT THE ISSUE!!

The issues are that they are lying and forming a cartel to try and push out the smaller dealers. If they succeed then:

We will lose all input as to what developments there are

Lose the quality of pieces built

Lose the quality of service we have come to expect

Have no recompence at that point, we will be stuck buying from them and them alone

CONSEQUENTIALLY, there will be a price rise as we have no other choice, BUT that is merely consequential, we are more interested in trying to ensure that we continue to have input and are able to get the quality and service that open market allows for. The other major issue is that these TRUSTED dealers are outright lying to our face, and selling horsehit movements as high class ones, we CANNOT accept lies or deception, as......

IT IS WHAT THIS COMMUNITY WAS BUILT TO PROTECT AGAINST!!!!!

[cornerstone]

I have to say prices are part of it - the dollars are what it's all about at the end of the day. No profit, no incentive.

[Edge]

I have to say prices are part of it - the dollars are what it's all about at the end of the day. No profit, no incentive.

Not right now, for now we aren't seeing the detriment in pricing, we will in the future should this continue however.

[Pugwash]

Of course, free market applies even with this "cartel".

How? This isn't a free market. This is a 12 members who pay for their stalls and need to come up to certain standards market.

[crystalcranium]

I think an important step would be to list the watches which these dealers are trying to sell exploitatively, and in big red text on every one of these forums exercise a boycott of them. The dealers will get the message the only way they can see it... but that is an extreme measure to be taken here.

I have had nothing but good experiences with Joshua. All of the watches he has sent me run well, keep good time, and all work well so far *knock on wood*.

Inside all of the watches are ETA if listed ETA, asian 21J if listed as such, etc... no lies.

He has displayed to me nothing but pure kindness which I must forward to members visiting this thread. I don't know if it means much coming from me, Corgi, a dog of all things, but I can tell you that Joshua is a good dealer who is certainly trustworthy and kind. All of the dealers on this message board have had threads pop up accusing them of perpetrating a fraud in some way or another - with these four gentlemen, it's obvious something would come up, but in a much bigger fashion.

Anyway... all I can say is that I can't way to get more clocks from my main man in chi-town, Josh, who has been a trusted partner throughout my voyage into the replica world.

I've bought perhaps 12 watches from the dealers in question and have not had a single bad experience. So why am I landing my voice to this discussion with concern and condemnation over the charges and accusations? Because there is a greater community good and responsibility we should bear contributing to this forum. Many of the most critical voices have expressed both business respect and friendship for Josh et al. This is not the issue. The facts before us are serious. I'm sorry to say I hear "I'm covering my ass with my dealer" in your posts.

[r11co]

Not right now, for now we aren't seeing the detriment in pricing, we will in the future should this continue however.

We have actually, but the increases in the short term have been largely imperceptible and have gone un-noticed by many. If we could use, as a price indicator, the best quality ETA2824 movement Omega replica of the time - about two years ago you could snag the best Seamaster Pro for $179 including delivery from two dealers I could mention but won't.

Last week saw the release of the latest Omega Planet Ocean, based on the existing Ultimate (ie. the best), the Casino Royale Special Edition. Price - $300 + delivery, almost double. The prices didn't leap though - they crept up. Even $235+delivery was the going rate for the best 7750 movement watches a year ago - the same price as a standard uPO today from the cartel.

I bought my uPO for $175 from one of our known dealers who shortly afterwards shut-up shop due to PayPal issues. I refused to pay the cartel's price and would have gone without the watch had it not become apparent to me that it wasn't worth anything like the price being charged and I could obtain it for a lot less.

The thin end of the wedge was banged in the day Perfect Clones came into being. So even those people who have never been dealt a bad turn in terms of product or customer services are suffering by artificially inflated prices. Read the emails guys - price fixing is going on and the cartel dealers are laughing at you all the way to the bank....

[TeeJay]

After reading the thread in the link above, it does appear (from Andrew)that Andrew and Josh are colluding on price and perhaps even communicating regarding member purchases...at least those that price check between the two. Don' know about King .

Nothing really wrong with that as far as I can tell. That is the way they choose to run their business, and we as buyers can take action accordingly. But we probably would not know about it without this Forum. Sometimes you can try to be too smart and it backfires on you.

Edit: I only buy from River and Silix.

Olivia, King is part of the Cartel. Andrew said so himself a month ago:

http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138896#138896

The last dealer of the four is KING. =)

Andrew

I posted this yesterday so you could read it. Did you also miss this?

http://www.replica-watch.info/forum/viewto...p=138054#138054

Well.. this Breitling SuperOcean is worth every single cent of your USD308. Where can you find a watch that is waterproofed to 1000m as claimed by Maker??

For your information, this price will always REMAIN at USD308. Swiss ETA 2824-2 movement is getting real scarce and even the Maker has to buy them in lots to keep. If you dont have connections with some Makers, you cannot even get a Swiss ETA 2836 cheaply. Like Josh say...there are ONLY 4 dealers offering this and they are all the same specs. Every dealer has a different way of calling it. I call my wife... DEAR.... Joshua call his wife..Darling...and the others.. I dont know. LOL...

Dont be a pug... =P

Get the Asia ETA 2813 version if you want to save some money..anyway it's 21J (28,800bph)

Cheers

Andrew

As has been said a dozen times price is not the issue. People are [censored] off at having been lied to about product, and are concerned that the Cartel are trying to push out smaller dealers by buying up all the stock of the really good reps. That is what people are concerned about. Not price.

[r11co]

As has been said a dozen times price is not the issue. People are [censored] off at having been lied to about product, and are concerned that the Cartel are trying to push out smaller dealers by buying up all the stock of the really good reps. That is what people are concerned about. Not price.

Why would they do that if it is not to allow them to protect or increase their mark-up?! No dealer is operating a charity. Of course price is the issue, if not for us then at least for them.

Read it and weep....

For your information, this price will always REMAIN at USD308.

Stop sticking your head in the sand or pretending that talking money is demeaning.

Price becomes an issue for everyone when restriction of trade eventually allows the cartel to charge BestSwiss prices plus, which is the natural consequence of what is going on. Do you think once the competition is gone they'll say to themselves 'that price is high enough, I think I'll leave it at that....'?!

Why all of a sudden does it seem distasteful to suggest we are all looking for the best deal here?! There is no status in paying over the odds - only deserved ridicule...

[richard_uk]

--------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2006 00:55:17 +0800

From: "Pure Time" <puretime2005@gmail.com>

To: [XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX]

Subject: Re: Watches

Dear Tim,

[payment information removed]

.

.

.

Tell you a secret but please do not tell any others, the parcels you received from Joshua were shipped by me (and packed by me as well), as well as Andrew's and ETAswiss's, because they are not located in China and all watches have to be shipped from China(Joshua comes to China quite often as his wife is here). You can always get watches faster than them here, you buy from me will skip the procedure of giving the watch to other people to ship. Which means you will receive the exact packing as you received from Joshua from me, no worries.

Cheers,

Angus

------------------------------------------------

Interesting? Helps explain anything??

/Tim

[narikaa]

- only deserved ridicule...

And when you swallow the line about it being rainy today

when being collectively [censored] on............

ridicule is what you are actually receiving

.

[TeeJay]

Why would they do that if it is not to allow them to protect or increase their mark-up?! No dealer is operating a charity. Of course price is the issue, if not for us then at least for them.

Read it and weep....

Stop sticking your head in the sand or pretending that talking money is demeaning.

Price becomes an issue for everyone when restriction of trade eventually allows the cartel to charge BestSwiss prices plus, which is the natural consequence of what is going on. Do you think once the competition is gone they'll say to themselves 'that price is high enough, I think I'll leave it at that....'?!

Why all of a sudden does it seem distasteful to suggest we are all looking for the best deal here?! There is no status in paying over the odds - only deserved ridicule...

Oh I quite agree with what you're saying about how it will eventually allow the Cartel to charge what they want, and I find that disturbing as well, however, what I find more disturbing, and a more pressing issue, is that people have been lied to about product. I believe that is what Edge is refering to by saying 'price is not the issue'. At the moment, price is not the issue. If the Cartel are allowed to continue, then prices could become an issue, but, by showing these people the door, they are not going to be in a position to influence the changes enough to affect the price. By dealing with the issue that they have lied to and manipulated people (as the emails clearly showed), that completely avoids the potential issue of them becoming able to influence prices, so yes, while price is ultimately a concern, it is by no means the most pressing one, and I suspect that is what Edge and others are pointing out. I was simply illustrating the posts to Olivia, which had been previously posted at Pug's request, yet Olivia was still apparently oblivious to the fact that King is part of the Cartel.

[cornerstone]

Why would they do that if it is not to allow them to protect or increase their mark-up?! No dealer is operating a charity. Of course price is the issue, if not for us then at least for them.

This is my line of thinking too - why are four competitors colluding when they would normally be competing?

When you lose choice, prices go up. And the prices are different between dealers. Take a 42.5mm ETA Planet Ocean, current prices:

Josh: $228 + $30 delivery = $258

Trusty: $228 + $30 delivery = $258

Silix: $150 + $28 delivery = $178

WO-Mart: $189 + $0 delivery = $189

If that watch wasn't available from other dealers, it would in effect be 45% more expensive. That's a fairly significant difference. Same watch, same shipping, all drop-shipped.

I think price is relevant to the cartel discussion.