All members, read this!

[tech]

... I have accounts on all the other rep forums but this one is the only one I donate to. Why? I don't know, it just feels like home here. We give our knowledge and advice freely but maybe it is time to limit access to the collectors to those who have a vested interest in this venture.

Same here...this site is the only one that get's my money. I do feel at home here and I will gladly pony up $$ to keep it going....

[offshore]

Wow, cool...sounds like you can get yourself a Bordeaux soon

Hopefully better than the pissy Lite beer, he had to drink last month

[mezzanine]

Mezzanine, you are making some very valid and good points. That is also why I posted the reason why we need donations and as I have always said; donations and upgrades are volunteer

At the end of the day, I think that we're all united in wanting to find a way to help.

I've wondered about doing a monthly raffle, whereby a dealer donates a "super rep" either at cost or free, and people can buy tickets at $5 a pop to try to win the watch. Maybe that dealer becomes the 'featured' dealer in a sticky at the top of the page for that particular watch, for that particular month- and agrees to sell it at a group-buy price.

There are certain aspects of the site that I think could be leveraged. I believe that the dealers are part of the answer here. They get a wonderful referral system through this site. I'm sure they pay for it through other means, but finding a way to engage them in making an effort to keep RWG going benefits them greatly. They are invested in the success of the site for a % of their business.

Maybe load up on advertising...like big flashy banners. And I'm not sure I agree that VIP's should be able to turn them off. The VIP's, as a %, are probably a disproportionate amount of the bandwidth. We could have click day, where whoever clicks the most ads that day wins some donated prize- a strap or something reasonable.

I'm just throwing stuff out there.

I know that if we collectively get creative, we can come up with some solid ideas. That to me is a far better attitude towards solving this problem than to start cannabalizing the other members and creating division.

[TeeJay]

To quote your "emotional blackmail"....yes, call it what you want....also, if the "shoe fits...then wear it" applies....dam skippy if I can lay a little guilt trip on the members that are feeding at the trough but not contributing....I enjoy the hell out of this site and I don't want it to go away. If EVERYONE did their part...than the call for donations wouldn't be necessary.

Ramadan Kareem

Alaikum massalam

Also, as Islam "demands" charitable contributions to the needy...I guess that doesn't count as "emotional blackmail" ....only my posting does?

You're quite right, the emotional blackmail is posts 'encouraging' ( ) others to donate. The point which has been raised many a time, that it is not for forum members to lay a guilt trip on anyone for anything. As pointed out, most forums are not subscription only, and neither is this one. If a forum is subscription only, then so be it. If a forum is run by voluntary donations, then so be it. If people really feel so strongly that this should be a forum where only subscribers can access information, then maybe a petition to make that so should be collected and presented to Admin for consideration. One thing I would point out, is that the amount of people who become members and stay around, will get much less if people have to pay an upfront subscription fee in order to read anything on the site, and with a hobby/subject like this, then it is most definitely a case of the more the merrier...

Islam demands that I make donations to the needy (who a person deems needs it most) I could donate to animal welfare, or child welfare, but instead, I will donate to the forum, as that is clearly in need, and something I feel the money will actually go to the intended recipients, unlike some 'charities' which skim off the top in 'administration' fees, so I'd rather my donations go here than elsewhere.

Assalamu alaikum

Heh, that's funny, TeeJay. Had no idea.

Roman Catholics are also enjoined to make charitable contributions (loosely translated as to use 1/3 of your salary, donate the other 1/3 to charity, and to save 1/3 for your future).

But I don't do so because of that since religion is at a discount in the West. I do so because I sense a need, and if I can, I fill it.

I'm a rather recent convert to Islam, but don't broadcast it around too much as I know that Muslims aren't exactly 'flavor of the month' in these times... I'd've thought you'd've made the connection to Islam when I said how many times a day I wash my hands

[LordRasta]

To meet our goal of 100%, I have donated the final $53.00 USD needed. This I donate in the name of The Zigmeisterzumba. A good man and an even better friend.

[sssurfer]

Great to read that the goal has been reached.

Still I just donated a bit though, to express my appreciation and maybe it can help on a next run.

[FxrAndy]

But just because we have reached this months goal lets be proactive and think about next month.

[ryyannon]

You are an exception, then, ryannon, because I believe that the average user believes that a site should be able to finance it's own existence through advertising. That's the nature of the internet. It is important to understand the psychology of most internet forum members if you're going to find a way to change that psychology for an exceptional circumstance like this one.

This is the internet. It is based on the free sharing of information. Try to say that the information is a privlidge or commodity doled out selectively by those financing the site, and you run the risk of 'putting off' those users who have gone many years operating under a different premise of where the 'value' of an internet community comes from.

Thanks for explaining the nature of the Internet for me, Mezzanine - I'm not sure I would ever have got it otherwise.

You've also opened my eyes to what a wonker I am, since I contribute financially to practically every blog and forum that I regularly read to show my appreciation for the time and thought that has gone into it.

I don't consider this 'paying for information' in any way, but the natural reflex of wanting to give back for something so freely offered.

Just as on RWG, there is no pressure to contribute on any of these - and even less so, since 'supporting members' are never mentioned as such. None the less, I notice that people regularly hit the Tip Jar, the PayPal window or the owner's Wish List.

A real Community of Wonkers, I guess, compared to the sterling cut-and-run types who'll use a forum for years without contributing anything to keep it going: if it sinks, too bad, you just move on to another place.

Hey, it's the Internet, right?

Information should be free: who ever said you had to pay for it?

/snarkiness off.

[Victoria]

This is an atypical internet site, because of it's need to host in a special, more secure manner. As a result, those that are unaware of this will not understand why their donation is required. Most forums are able to be self-sustaining off of google ad revenues. I am only outlining the exact process I've gone through in understanding why I need to donate. If you try to tell me I "better" donate, I simply won't. Members need to discover it on their own, openly and without fear of reprisal, in order to make that voluntary donation. It's the only atmosophere under which enlisting donations can be effective.

First, thanks as ever for clearly putting down your points, without any antagonism that I could perceive anyway.

You're right that sometimes pleas from veterans (moreso than Admin and his moderating team) become akin to berating.

The problem is exactly as you say -- this is an atypical site because of its costly hosting fees, and because Admin has had his accounts shut down innumerable occasions. This creates a need for "re-upping", to signify your support for the site's purpose.

I think I've also gone on the record that a velvet glove is required, else people feel offended no matter the realities of the situation.

But this line is the one which personally troubles me:

"If you try to tell me I "better" donate, I simply won't."

There are times when we have to put away our pride, or offended feelings and think of the commonweal, especially as adults.

It seems to me this is one of those times, and "I simply won't" sounds like a child who has just been told they "HAVE TO" do something, and dig in their heels and refuse to move.

One simply cannot have this attitude, although I know you were not speaking necessarily of yourself, but noting the reaction others may have.

To think like this is really silly when you stop, and ponder about the situation.

If you will allow again, this is my idea of what RWG is:

It's like a public library. Everyone who goes there can browse through the books, whether or not you live in the area. No one will stop you at the door, and bar you entrance to at least take advantage of some of the learning found within, by asking you for a fee before.

But if you want to take out books, books which contain knowledge to better yourself, to find humour, and to share ideas, then you have to do so, in the form of local taxes which pay for your library ticket/card.

Oftentimes, the Libraries have special membership drives, or sell used books, because even the local taxes are not enough to keep them going.

And that's because not all who live there, and take advantage of their services, pay their full share of taxes.

I don't berate anyone, because until recently, I was a non-paying member. But once I was asked, having decided this was a place which had given me MUCH, I poneyed up the membership.

It's only fair.

I too want to check out some of the cool stuff inside this library of rep watch knowledge. And I want to keep the Library going as long as it can.

[Raijor]

I would again voice my concerns over creating an 'adversarial' tone towards enlisting donations. Not because I would like to further [censored] off members who believe that it is necessary, but rather, because I feel it jeopardizes the long-term future of the site.

Attempting to 'commoditize' information on the internet is a very difficult proposition. Not because there isn't a reasonable basis to suggest that non-paying users profit from the information without an understanding of the finances of the system they are benefitting from. Rather, this site has an unusual cost-structure the casual user is simply unaware of.

Most internet users would react negatively to the notion that information is being 'commoditized' by administrators of a site, because the free sharing of information is the organic quality of the internet that everyone now instinctively believes will occur. They will view an attempt to 'force' donations as mis-guided, and an attitude that occurs out of the belief that users cannot find the information else-where.

The reality is that someone who comes to this site credits themselves with having found a community of information that benefits their users as a collective. The flow of power is always from the members to the community on the internet- not from an 'elite' group of people to the end users- within a message board format. Attempting to change that 'flow' of perceived value will have negative consequences.

Essentially, what you some of you are saying is that you 'own' the information that non-paying members are profitting from, and that you will 'take it away' if they do not contribute monetarily. Most new members contribute their time and effort before they contribute their money. You are unwittingly sabotaging the process by which new members *eventually* become donating members.

If you attempt to negate the value of non-monetary contributions, you negate the real backbone and origin of value of any internet community. People perceive this attempt to commoditize information, and take it as an affront to their ability to research information. If I discover a website that has good stock tips through my own research, contribute to the stock information, and am then told that I 'owe' for the info I've 'discovered' freely- I am likely to take it as an affront to my ability to find such information on my own.

I say this not to antagonize matters further, but to try to elaborate my feelings on how best to create an atmosphere that will encourage further donation from those that have not yet donated. That's the perspective I think some of you have lost. You're looking at this from veteran, already-donated member perspective. That's perspective is not going to benefit this site, in terms of getting 'new' donations from currently new members. You've lost touch with what it was like to not have the perspective on the site's finances that you do.

This is an atypical internet site, because of it's need to host in a special, more secure manner. As a result, those that are unaware of this will not understand why their donation is required. Most forums are able to be self-sustaining off of google ad revenues. I am only outlining the exact process I've gone through in understanding why I need to donate. If you try to tell me I "better" donate, I simply won't. Members need to discover it on their own, openly and without fear of reprisal, in order to make that voluntary donation. It's the only atmosophere under which enlisting donations can be effective.

Nothing in life is free - that is the way of the world - period - if this forum is not supported financially it will go away

[rolli]

my donation is completed.

thanks rwg

rolli

[Seltea]

You need to give back what you are getting from this Forum. I'm upgrading - E MAil sent.

[lanikai]

I read all the posts and agree with everyone and everthing that has been said..But I do believe it is "time" that at least a registration fee should be paid before the Forum is available to members who have not at least donated to keeping the Forum running.. what is the wrong in doing that.. I believe if you give people the option 99% sill opt. not to pay a "registration' fee...The thought that this forum should be open to all and donations should be volunteer may have worked 2 years ago and may still be working if the membership were not at the numbers it is now..But let's be REAL .,.. I think a Realty Check is in order here.. this Forum is "Value Added" to "everyones" hobby or single purchase of Reps. ... even a one time buyer benefits from this forum !!!!! A 5 or 10 dollar registration fee every 6 months should cover it.. and it should be implemented for all members who have not donated or upgraded their membership ..... heck if people cannot even kick in a dollar a month ... I don't believe in free lunches for those who can afford steak and lobster dinners..and if these members leave ... their loss not the Forums .. .. Sorry I am getting worked up but I think it has come time to draw a line and for the survival and so that the SAMEI read all the posts and agree with everyone and everthing that has been said..But I do believe it is "time" that at least a registration fee should be paid before the Forum is available to members who have not at least donated to keeping the Forum running.. what is the wrong in doing that.. I believe if you give people the option 99% sill opt. not to pay a "registration' fee...The thought that this forum should be open to all and donations should be volunteer may have worked 2 years ago and may still be working if the membership were not at the numbers it is now..But let's be REAL .,.. I think a Realty Check is in order here.. this Forum is "Value Added" to "everyones" hobby or single purchase of Reps. ... even a one time buyer benefits from this forum !!!!! A 5 or 10 dollar registration fee every 6 months should cover it.. and it should be implemented for all members who have not donated or upgraded their membership ..... heck if people cannot even kick in a dollar a month ... I don't believe in free lunches for those who can afford steak and lobster dinners..and if these members leave ... their loss not the Forums .. .. Sorry I am getting worked up but I think it has come time to draw a line and for the survival and so that the SAME

[lanikai]

I do believe that it is 'TIME" that a registration fee is implemented ... 5 or 10 usd every 6 months to cover "costs" ..

the thought of volunteer donations may have worked 2 years ago but the forum has grown to the point where this is a nice "thought" but in reality will not work .. for much longer

we can have all the "bake sales" and raffles but I believe .. a reality check is in order.... if you give people the "option" to donate or not 99 % will opt to "not" .. human nature being what it is... people will alway's pass the buck and wait for the "other" to do the grunt work...

So with that being said .. if members who "choose" not to donate but use the other members who do donate for information and direction in "saving" them money or directing them to the best reps... (because many of us learned by spending our money on bad reps or movements) and passing this on to others so they wouldn't make the same mistake... we made mistakes so they don't have to go through the same process..

I am not here to support members who want to ride the "coat tail" of those who month after month will donate because this Forum has become more than just an online chat room... I have made friends here and have made value added purchases... I have learned of different cultures around the world .. I have learned to accept others opinions and still disagree ... or vis versa ....

so in closing I say..... REGISTRATION FEE .. and be done with this monthly stress to the Admin Team.... and so we all can stand on common ground..

Why do we "need" members who are going to use this forum and it's members knowledge and inventory of sources if they cannot even chip in a little??

if they leave .. so what? they leave ... sorry I am getting a bit worked up here .... BUT REALLY... either chip in or ship out..

that's all >>>LOL>>> I have to say (for now)

Lanikai

[elprimerozen]

Done!

[KB]

The idea that the information within this site should remain free is only workable because the very same members who have upgraded their accounts and then donated last Month and the Month before and the Month before etc, are in fact donating again this Month.

This is the reason for the closed supporters area as we must have some way to reward these people.

Ken

[TeeJay]

Not wanting to get all 'preachy' about things, I found this rather excellent passage in the Holy Qur'an and thought I'd share it

Sura 2: The Cow:

O ye who believe! bestow alms of the good things which ye have acquired, and of that which we have brought forth for you out of the earth, and choose not the bad for almsgiving,

Such as ye would accept yourselves only by connivance: and know that Allah is Rich, Praiseworthy.

Assalamu alaikum

[Victoria]

Not wanting to get all 'preachy' about things, I found this rather excellent passage in the Holy Qur'an and thought I'd share it

Assalamu alaikum

Freely you have received, freely give. (Matt 10:

Whether New Testament or Koran, we are all enjoined to give. It's the most rewarding part of belief.

[TeeJay]

Freely you have received, freely give. (Matt 10:

Whether New Testament or Koran, we are all enjoined to give. It's the most rewarding part of belief.

Indeed. The thing I find the most 'comforting' about Islam, is that although there are things which are obligatory, they are only obligatory to those able to perform the requirements, there is nothing about people having to do or give any more than they can

[FxrAndy]

Come on people, what if you went to log on and the place was gone! I would be gutted! what would you feel?

[lanikai]

I do not know internet Law or if this is an offshore account or if the "donatoin" has something to do with internet taxes ....

but what is obvious to me is this will take a toll month after month ... as long as everything is on a volunteer donation principle then the majority of members will depend on the old guard to pay the bills..

RWG has more knowledge than the genuine sites IMHO..... on movements because we have the members..ie: the best Horologist (ziggy).. sssurfer, Pugwash, Bytor, Kruzer, Andrew,... Lello... chieftang .. all these members and more contribute knowledge at no cost we have Vbarrett if you are unsure of straps and V who makes them..

so with that said (again).. I don't find it out of line to have a "registration" fee in place after a so called Grace period to check out the site..

If this is not breaking any Non-profit law.. because this site would fall under the "education" of non-profit organizations... what would be wrong..

all the reviews that are brilliantly done are not here for profit.. but the bills need to be paid.. I find no guilt or ethical negativity in having some sort of fee in place for the use of this site..

we can philisophiclly go on about the need for doing the right thing.. and in the end the same members will gladly pony up for the rest of the members who will not..

common people we are talking about 1 hambuger a month.. not a 5 star dinner your giving up ... we are talking hambuger helper not the Four Seasons here ...

the admin team (i think) needs to look into this thought ... we are talking the survival of this Forum.. no one wants to see this disolved or another admin team ...

Please give it some thought.. it can be tweaked and polished later.. i would like to see some kind of registration fee in place even if it's 5 usd .. and more areas restricted for the "subscribing Members" (and there is a phrase that say's it all "subscribing")

thank you.........Lanikai

[mezzanine]

Thanks for explaining the nature of the Internet for me, Mezzanine - I'm not sure I would never have got it otherwise.

You've also opened my eyes to what a wonker I am, since I contribute financially to practically every blog and forum that I regularly read to show my appreciation for the time and thought that has gone into it.

I don't consider this 'paying for information' in any way, but the natural reflex of wanting to give back for something so freely offered.

Just as on RWG, there is no pressure to contribute on any of these - and even less so, since 'supporting members' are never mentioned as such. None the less, I notice that people regularly hit the Tip Jar, the PayPal window or the owner's Wish List.

A real Community of Wonkers, I guess, compared to the sterling cut-and-run types who'll use a forum for years without contributing anything to keep it going: if it sinks, too bad, you just move on to another place.

Hey, it's the Internet, right?

Information should be free: who ever said you had to pay for it?

/snarkiness off.

I had you pegged as a 'wonker' pretty early on, ryannon.

Don't attempt to lump everyone who donates in with you, it does them a disservice.

You're certainly not the type of keep mentioning that you're a contributor over and over in a self-aggrandizing manner- that would reflect a lack of class that you obviously are well-above. /sarcasm off

Get over yourself, dude.

[ahchard]

Done...

[bbell6]

Done. Sorry I was late to the party.

[ryyannon]

I had you pegged as a 'wonker' pretty early on, ryannon.

Don't attempt to lump everyone who donates in with you, it does them a disservice.

You're certainly not the type of keep mentioning that you're a contributor over and over in a self-aggrandizing manner- that would reflect a lack of class that you obviously are well-above. /sarcasm off

Get over yourself, dude.

Hits bottom, keeps digging.