automatico

"Interesting discussion. I thought V72's went for a lot more money ($1,000 or more when functioning correctly). Shows what I know." "At the start of this year, you could still find 72s and 72C watches selling for $400-600 on eBay. Nowadays, it's not surprising to see even less desirable chronos (like Clebars) touching the $1000 mark. Meanwhile, 7734s have moved into the $300-500 range. I would find it all so amusing if I weren't still trying to get my hands on these movements!" Since I have worn a few watches in the past with the V72, I am not really high on them and never thought they were that hot. They had troubles like a lot of vintage chronographs, especially with the 12 hour recorder and a few other nit picking things. I had a couple that had the mainspring break and you have to take the whole blasted thing apart to replace one. I see posters on brand forums get excited because the V72 has a column wheel thereby making it the 'All Time Hero Chronograph Movement'. That and the fact they do not make then anymore. So what? I say. The V72 was a design from the 1940s and back then they came in relatively cheap watches...cheap to buy and cheap to fix. They became the ATHCM thanks internet forums imho. The current mainstream swisseta 750 is probably the reigning 'Current Hero Chronograph Movement". It does not have a column wheel and it manages to be tough and precise. The swiss 750 was even fairly cheap until swatch started screwing with prices. I'll call the Asian 7750 the 'current hero chronograph movement' (all lower case) just to be fair. I noticed in the 'Home Plates' article (October 2010 "Watch Time") that TAG/H is going to use the Seiko TC78 as the pattern for their new 1887 chronograph...column wheel, 'Magic Lever' and all. Nice to see a dose of common sense in a swiss watch once in a while. The article also shows the cheapo 15 jewel chronograph movement to be used in swatch and tissot. It has a brass winding rotor and plastic escapement. ...$35 to make and $300 to repair. What is my Hero Chronograph Movement? The ST19. Btw, The October WT also has a good article on the Bulova Precisionist.

Thanks! I thought $450 was too high. If the watch was in good condition, it might be worth it but not in the shape it's in. I will see if I can trade something I do not have a lot of $$ in for it. Twenty years ago I had a few V72 chronographs...Benrus Sky Chief, Enicar, GP, Wittnauer 'Professional', Baylor etc and the most I ever paid for them back then was about $200. Times have changed. BTW, a friend bought a Wakmann with a Val 72C from a pawn shop for $20 and sold it last weekend for $750. That sure puts things in perspective. Another friend bought a steel rolex opd timehead in a pawn shop parking lot for $100 after the pawn shop turned it down. Seems like all I can find is screwjobs. I did buy a 214 Accutron 'Alpha' for $1 a few years ago though.

When looking for a replacement crystal, list the case number or exact crystal size...overall OD, OD under the top edge if applicable, thickness, and date magnifier offset from center. Most replica crystals are straight sided with no step. I also have a noob with a broken crystal, case number F520117. This case has a sapphire crystal with a ledge at the top similar to genuine but a different size so a genuine spec crystal will not work. I scratch tested the crystal since it was broken anyway...it is sapphire for sure. I have been looking for a replacement for 2 years with no luck. The F520117 crystal is 30.45mm overall OD The step under the crystal top edge where the gasket seals is 29.0mm. The crystal is 2.0mm thick with beveled top edge. The center of the date mag is 9.0mm from the dial center.

I can trade for an old Wakmann 3 register chronograph with a Val 72 in it and am wondering if it is worth what I will have in it. The screwback steel case is rough. The pushers are not very good...need gaskets and tlc. The snap in crystal is cracked but crystals are cheap. The dial is pretty bad...luminous material is dingy and the silver paint is chipped. The hands are ratty and the luminous material is missing from the H and M hands. The movement runs and resets but needs cleaning...has a little rust on one lever close to the crown. The rust is not bad. Incabloc shock protection. If I trade, I will have about $450 in it and was counting only the movement to be worth the price as the case and dial are so rough. Is it worth it for the movement to use in a project etc? I have not priced a V72 watch in years and do not know what they are going for now. Thanks!

"I would be happy with taking a 21j and freezing the center seconds and having no seconds hand at all... I've always wanted a daytona, but after my sec at 6 died after a few days, i really dont want to buy another one until a solution is found." I had a running seconds at 6 'sudden death' Asian 7750 model and it was the reason I decided to freeze the DG center second hand. The dials and cases apperar to be identical comparing the DG powered model to the 7750 model...except the DG case does not have a groove for case clamps and uses a plastic spacer. The 7750 model claimed to have a sapphire crystal and the DG model made no claims. The modified watch mentioned above still runs just fine (I wore it yesterday), so I guess it was a pretty good fix. You need the model with running seconds at 6 if possible to make it more convincing. As far as I am concerned...the best solution would be a quartz chronograph movement with the same sub dial layout and running seconds at 6 ticking 4 to 6 times a second (sub second hands are hard to tell if 21600 or 28800 bph). I bet a guy could get rich making quartz replacement 3035 and 3135 spec movements for genuine rolex watches with 6 or 8 ticks a second like the new Bulova Precisionist. My guess is most modern rolex owners do not give a hoot about mechanical movements...just the name on the dial. Imho, the oysterquartz bombed because it did not look enough like a rolex...and cost 2 arms, one leg, and a left nut to get fixed. http://watchcomplications.com/?p=43

"...When and if the asian finally dies, and you still like the watch, you can swap in an ETA at that time." True. Otoh, one reason to pay extra $$ for an Asian etaclone is so a genuine Swiss Eta will be a drop in movement exchange. When you go from a Miyotaclone (DG 2813 etc) to a Swiss Eta 2824/36 etc, it involves: Changing hands. Removing the dial feet. Cementing the dial to the Eta calendar spacer. Plus... The Eta date wheel may not match the font and/or offset from the dial center (most rolex watches are 9mm and standard Eta is 10mm). Sometimes a different movement spacer is needed. Sometimes a different calendar wheel is needed. The case screws and clamps may not work. The Eta stem may not center in the case tube (original movement was too thick or too thin). When you go from Asian etaclone to Swiss Eta...everything should exchange with no trouble. The key word is should.

"Question for you: what's the price difference between the two?" GS price was $9.95 each or $9.50 each for 3 or more from Startime in Houston TX (for call in order). Online prices may be a little less.

I doubt they would be a reliable substitute for eta 2824 etc as they have problems of their own and parts are getting harder to find and costing more and more. Set bridges in the 565 etc are weak and the 'push/pull crown' quickset is prone to trouble. Many have floppy rotors from years of wear and the autowind reverser is not the best. They are very good for Seamaster 300 replicas if you can find a case, dial, and hands.

"Personally, I like all my ETA 2824-2 movements to have this one." Me too. The incabloc with 'lyre' spring is easier to work with. The novo and etachron are aggravating little bastids. The rolex 'duofix' is bad too...used on 1530 escape wheel cap jewels.

"CRAZY sale!!! this brings back memories." Swiss eta subs for $159 delivered! I bought a couple watches from him one time and they came from a used car lot in Georgia USA. Never did figure that one out.

"Ok, and where do you read it has a 1575 caliber? " Because that is what comes in these watches, I have a couple...bought them for the movements. This is not my first rodeo. "Comes with a generic gold tone and ss jubille style band." I did not assume the bracelet to be worth anything but if it has a genuine clasp...the clasp is worth about $25. The dial and hands are worth $50 - $75. The case with solid gold bezel and gold cap crown is worth around $150. "I'd want to see pics of the movement before getting too excited about this one.. It could be rusted out and barely working, or it could be an ETA or Tudor modified ETA...." I bought a couple items from this guy and the watch will be exactly what he says it is. Sorry for the bother, keep buying 1570/75 on eBay.

Saw this on TZ: http://forums.timezone.com/index.php?t=tree&goto=5234168&rid=0

"Almost everyone on the forum that has been here for a while has similar stories. Quite a few of us have had franken MBW's 1665's 1680's with almost everything genuine but the movement and MBW case. I have had several over the years and every one of them topped out at close to 1000.00 USD before it was over with. I believe that the most I got for one was around 700.00 USD and that was with a genuine bracelet and end links thrown in. That was back in about 2005, but the same thing holds true now." I have assembled a few frankensteins and try to keep the $$ below what the watch will sell for whole or in parts...not easy of course. I paid $750 for the 26 jewel, hack 1520 (19800 bph) in the last 1016 frankenstein I stuck together and counting a mainspring and stem, the movement cost me about $775 after I cleaned it. That's not too bad for the movement as I can probably get at least this much back out of it. If I had the movement cleaned by someone else it would cost about $100 around here. I had to skimp on the dial and case in order to keep the $$ down though. I used an Asian 'refinished' 1016 dial (actually a new 100% replica dial) and aft/mkt hands along with a genuine 16234 case that is in good but not great condition. I went a $hundred or so over what I wanted to 'invest' but since I have worn it for more than a year, I got that back in 'wearing time'. I thought about putting a Bulova 11BLACD in the watch and went so far as to drill the Bulova mainplate for rolex 1530 dial feet but have not put the movement together yet. All you have to do then is turn a fraction off the hour wheel so 1530 rolex spec hands will fit. This would bring the total cost down about $700 because of the difference in movement cost. It would also make the watch an older style with 18000 bph and no hack. j/s: I think you did Ok on the 1680 except for the movement and this was not supposed to happen and should be chalked up to experience and bad luck. I know the bad taste from all the $$ spent makes you want to get rid of the watch that caused the loss but if it was me, I would keep the watch and wear it for a couple years and enjoy it. If you feel the same way about it then...sell it, but I bet the feeling of paying too much slowly evaporates over time.

"Looking for a TT Oyster Bracelet for a Sub with solid gold (ie still hollow midlinks, but not plated or wrapped). Has anyone bought an aftermarket one and if so from where and how did it work out." I bought probably 35 or 40 new aft/mkt ss/gold bracelets over the years and all were fine except for a few that I got from unknown sources (internet, strangers at watch shows etc). The best bracelets were all made in Italy and came from an established supply house/dealer. A few of the unknown bracelets were low karat, 10k or 12k etc, but sold as 14k or 18k. They also had shoddy details...screws etc. They were quite a bit cheaper than higher grade bracelets though. With today's $1200+ troz gold, Italian bracelets have doubled in price in the past few years and are really getting expensive. Otoh, about 6 or 7 years back, I bought a dozen 'unknown' ss and 'solid gold' jubilee bracelets for a price that I was sure were plated but I have never had one wear through the plating and some have been in service 5 years now (I sold them as being plated). The hoods have 'gold' strips soldered on the centers and steel tubes soldered on the underside just like genuine. I never tested one for gold but probably need to see what's what. "The problem with all that "aftermarket" gold stuff is that you never know what you're going to receive." I agree...when you buy from dodgy or unknown sources. Established supply houses will usually have quality bracelets. "Plus you have ZERO guarantees how the SELs will fit, etc." SELs are a real problem and for this reason, I have stayed with old style tutone watches with removable bracelet hoods.

I heard TTK and WLD ran off and got married. Then...WLD screwed TTK on a watch deal and they went through a messy divorce. WLD = watchloverdavid, another Hero turned bad. He skinned me 7 or 8 years ago.

"Yeah the gen companies aren't much better as people believe." That's the truth if I ever saw it! Many people who buy new high priced (mainly swiss) watches do not complain out loud when they break because they feel so bad about it. They actually 'drank the Kool-Aid' and believed the hype. Btw, I always thought the greatest thing to happen to watches was the quartz movement. I remember reading about the new quartz Seiko Astron when it came out in 1969 and thought to myself...no more hairsprings! (hairsprings are the bane of the universe imho) http://www.seikowatches.com/baselworld/2010/precon/0101-astron.html I was really knocked back on my heels when mechanicals started making a comeback in the 1980s. Of course I had to get right in the middle of it. I'm showing my age but I can remember when mechanical watches were the norm and there was a watch repair shop on every corner. There had to be watch repair shops everywhere because there was always something wrong with them. Just about the only alternative that was any good was the Accutron. I do believe the average watch made today is much better than the average watch made back then though. Why? The average watch today is quartz. arniezac...good luck with the new watch!

SD is right, I would go with the 2846 because it runs at 21600 beats per hour vs the 2824/2836 at 28800 bph. Genuine 1016 runs at 18000 bph on earlier models and 19800 bph on later models so the 2846 at 21600 bph is close enough. There is a lot of info on 1016 projects in past posts so you can save time and $$ by reading them before you start. A partial list of what you need: Case: 1016 explorer replica DJ replica Genuine rolex 16000/16200 DJ etc Bore lug holes out to accept 1016 springbars if there is enough metal around the original holes. The case neck needs to be 29.5mm to accept oem spec crystals. Crowns: 6mm OD rolex or replica on either standard 6mm case tube or late model 6mm rolex crown made to fit 5.3mm tube. Some replica cases have 6mm case tubes and some have 5.3mm case tubes. Genuine 16000 etc will have 6mm tube. Genuine 16200 etc will have 5.3mm tube. note: Earlier genuine rolex 16000 etc cases have 6.0mm case tubes and came with acrylic crystals but the dial and movement will not fit the same as in a 16200 etc case because the 3035 that came in 16000 etc cases is about .4mm taller from the center of the stem to the top of the dial surface than the 3135 that came in 16200 etc cases. Crystal: 1016 crystal = rolex 22 or equivalent such as GS PA464-64C with 1016 size bezel. You may use a rolex 21 or equivalent when using standard rolex DJ bezel (rolex 21 is made for rolex no date 1018). 16000 etc steel cases have acrylic crystals. 16200 etc steel cases have sapphire crystals. GS PA crystals start on page 100: http://www.esslinger.com/pdfs/GS%20Crystal%20Catalog.pdf Hands: Aft/mkt or gennuine hands for later model tudor submariner. Bezel: 1016 spec bezel with rolex 22 crystal smooth DJ spec bezel with rolex 21 crystal When using Eta movement, Stilty probably has adapters to make the Eta fit in a DJ 16200 etc spec case. It's a pain without the adapter.

"It sure would be nice if we could get gen Rolex parts at a reasonable price! " A shop I did some work for had a rolex parts account with rolex (Dallas TX) and they would not sell us bezels at all. No inner bezels, no rotating bezels, no fluted or smooth bezels etc. They would sell inserts and tension springs though. No dials but we could get hands. No movement plates but we could get train wheels, reversers, screws, jewels, MS/barrels, balances complete, rotor axles, balance staffs etc. No bracelet or case parts except for maybe a link screw now and then...no links, clasps, or hoods. They would sell us case tubes, crowns crystals, gaskets, and springbars though. Back then (5 years ago) you could still get links, clasps, and hoods from ADs but you needed an exchange most of the time. "On my beater gen 16800 one day, I hit the corner of the desk or something like that- the bezel popped of, lost the click spring. Went to my watchmaker and got a click spring for $8. Next thought is take the bezel off and go to the Rolex AD and say it popped off, fell in the water and I need a new one. " This is quite common with modern rolex watches and you can sometimes pop a rotating bezel off by hand if you get a good grip on it. An AD will have no problem with this claim. "Bezel, insert, click spring and a tension washer- what would it cost? Can I afford it? Raped by Rolex again- RBRA!" I bet the price will make your nose bleed. From my limited experience, I have noticed that replacement rotating bezels from well known, established supply houses usually fit better than the bezels you get from internet sites. I got a replacement bezel for a 1675 from Startime (Houston TX) a while back and it fit the case perfectly...the genuine bezel insert snapped in just fine too.

"And to have to have the case and bezel machined after paying $450 also doesn't sit right with me." I would feel the same way. Q...Why can't they make a $450 case that works? A...They can, they just don't want to. I still bet my best watch against a stale doughnut that these $400 to $500 cases are just out of spec, run-of-the-mill $20 cases that have been stamped 1016 and the lugs bored out. FYI...my best watch is worth at least 3 stale doughnuts. You might find a 16200 etc case, mount an old crystal and bezel, and file or sand the shoulders down on the lug tops a little to match the 1016 profile. I looked at my 16234 '1016' project watch and it does not look like it would be very hard to file/sand the lug tops down. You would have to gently taper the lugs away from the bezel, then remove the bezel and replace the grain on top of the lugs. It would be best to try this on a replica case first and see how it goes. I would do this to mine but: 1...I doubt there is a genuine 1016 in town so I am not about to get busted (I doubt there are 20 genuine rolex watches in the whole town). 3...Since it was my idea, someone else needs to try it.

"Any one know the tap size for the tubes on 5.3 and 6mm crowns??" 5.3mm = 2.5mm x .25mm 6.0mm and 7.0mm = 3.0mm x .35mm

"...I should have remembered that the gens were tapered." Modern 7.0mm tubes like in your picture rely mainly on a plastic gasket that is compressed against the tube and case for sealing. You can see the ledge just above the taper where the plastic gasket mounts. The taper on the tube offers quite a bit of sealing but it also offers an 'area of friction' that allows the tube to bind against the case so the tube will stay tight. Larger 7.0mm crowns exert quite a bit of twist on the case tube when tightened down so there is aways the chance the crown and tube will unscrew. Genuine submariner cases are precision cut for the plastic gasket where replicas are hit or miss...usually miss. Many times when you use an oem spec 7.0mm case tube along with the plastic gasket on a replica, the case tube will not seat properly and the crown will bottom out too far away from the case when screwed down. The crown sits too far from the case = 'highjacker' crown. The crown bottoms out against the case = 'low rider' crown. As for whether simpler 5.3mm and 6.0mm tubes will seal better on replicas compared to 7.0mm tubes...they are hit or miss too but the silver sealing gasket helps most of the time. I use ThreeBond 1194 on replica tubes just to be sure. http://www.threebond.co.jp/en/product/series/sealants/productdetails/1100/1194.html

"I love the 1016 Explorer. I believe it's the purest expression of the basic Rolex design--one that started with the Oyster Perpetual and remains present in today's lineup. It's one of the perfect watch designs of the last century, in my opinion, and it's one of my few real watch obsessions." It is my all time favorite rolex too. Plain and simple...no rotating bezel, no bezel insert, no crown guards, no dive extension to fold up, no flipper lock to fool with, no date to get out of whack. No more "Issat a real rolex?" because it does not look like a submariner. It looks like a $75 Seiko. "One of the big pluses of using a 162xx is that its case has a flat, thick midsection, just like the 1016." Yep. "Also, the gentler curves of the lugs are more appropriate for an older Rolex." True. My '1016' project watch uses a 16234 case (iirc) and from the side it looks like a convict saying "I dunno, I dunno." with his shoulders shrugged compared to the older styles. Here are some good 1016 pics: http://alanwatch.homestead.com/explorer.html http://www.sheartime.com/new/st047.html

The case neck should be 29.5mm. A genuine 25-22 rolex crystal is .75mm thick at the base and a GS 464-64-C is same as the rolex 22, maybe a hair thicker. The bezel ID is somewhere around 31mm (I do not have one handy to measure). With aftmkt bezels, I usually have to fit the bezel to the crystal after the crystal is mounted on the case. The crystal will expand a little bit when pushed down on the crystal neck. If the bezel needs to be sized, measure the crystal you are going to use after it is pushed down on the case and then cut the bezel to fit. It's a good idea to have 1 or 2 spare crystals exactly the same so the bezel will fit them all if you need to replace one later. I would not spend the extra $$ for a genuine crystal when the GS will work for around $10. I have worn my 1016 project watch quite a bit since October 2008 and the GS crystal is holding up fine. If the bezel stops just after it goes over the top of the crystal, it is too tight and may crack the crystal. If you can pry the bezel off with your fingernails, it is too loose. The bezel should slip over the crystal in one smooth motion with very little or no chatter. A good crystal press is a necessity and aluminum cups are better because plastic cups can flex and allow the bezel to get out of level.

"Genuine 1016 cases are very rare, and very dear when they do show up." True, and many have corrosion around the case and caseback where the gasket goes so be very careful when buying one. Also check to see how much the case is bent by removing the caseback and rocking it dial side up on a flat surface. A little is Ok and may be because of grinding/polishing etc but a lot of rocking means the case is bent. Many are rejected cases that should have been thrown away. "Yuki is an option, but one that hasn't been tested yet. It looks good in the pictures, but it's hard to gauge the accuracy from the angles the shots were taken." I do not want to be the first to get one. Besides, if the first one is Ok, will the next one be the same? I have a feeling these cases are probably made from modern replica 16200 etc DJ cases. "MBK sells the best out-of-the-box 1016, and it's also a good base for projects" MBK cases are probably the best for Eta base projects and a genuine rolex 16200 case with lug holes is probably the best for 1530 base rolex movement projects. It is very hard to drill accurate holes in a modern case with blind lug holes. I have tried it and ruined two cases before I got one right. I used replica cases so the loss was small but I would not try on a genuine case unless I made a precision case holder. The trouble was that the drill bit 'walked' around on the lug and missed the center. I finally got one right by mounting the case at a slight angle to make the start of the cut straight into the lug and not at an angle. As soon as the bit got a good start, I remounted the case so the hole would be straight. Something else I learned is to have the least amount of drill bit sticking out of the collet/chuck as possible so the bit will not flex and 'walk' around. I started with a smaller bit and took about 3 cuts to finish up at the desired size. Btw, I was using a Sherline vertical milling machine and not a hand held drill or drill press. If I get my nerve up, I might try again using a precision case holder of some sort. "The problem with most of the cheaper (i.e. $250 and lower) 1016 reps is that they're based on old rep Datejusts that are all over the place, dimensionally." I agree. Many of the first 1016 Frankensteins I saw were at NAWCC etc shows 20 years ago using genuine rolex 1601/3 and 1018 cases with 1520/60/70 mvts sporting used 1016 dials and they just will not pass for a 1016 off the wrist. "I would like to give Silix's ROLS048 a try if I were embarking on another cheapo 1016 project! It looks like a promising base, with more softly-contoured lugs, thicker midsection, and lugholes in roughly the right place. The caseback is very different, though." It looks like a very good place to start an Eta 1016 project, especially since it has lug holes. Imho, the caseback is Ok as long as you do not wear it upside down... As far as it goes...a 16200/1016 project is busted as soon as you look between the lugs...just like a tranny hooker. One thing I have noticed is that many 1016 project watches use a crystal that sits too high above the bezel. The old style domed 1016 crystals were relatively low (I do not have one to measure) and the modern 'flat top' angle edge crystals are not very high either. I just measured a genuine rolex 25-22 'flat top' crystal and it is only 4.7mm thick top to bottom counting the slight dome. After the bezel is pressed down over the crystal, about 1.3mm is all that rises above the bezel at the edge and the slight dome makes the whole crystal about 2.5mm higher than the bezel at the top center The GS PA464-64C replacement for a rolex 25-22 is the exact same as genuine...4.7mm high overall and no one can tell the difference. I suspect many 'genuine' 25-22 crystals are just repackaged GS crystals.

FW..."I agree they look newly made. Wouldn't that be considered refinished? I guess my jargon is not quite correct." F3..."You refinish an old dial..." I agree with Freddy 100%. There is no way a dial can truthfully be called 'refinished' when using a new or replica dial blank. The guys selling these 'made from scratch' replica dials call them 'refinished' so they will not get knocked down on eBay etc by genuinerolexpurists...and maybe fool a few suckers. Here is what I think is funny...a genuinerolexpurist will scream and cry when they see a 'refinished' dial with a replica dial blank for sale, alert the eBay Police, and post the dial info all over the rolex internut forums. Otoh, they are Ok with a crappy $200 refinishing job on an original dial blank. If they could get the same quality of 'refinish' job on an original dial blank as the one being discussed, they would be dancing in the streets. If they paid $1500 for one of these same 'mystery dials' from a 'respected rolex parts dealer'...they would be in Total Bliss. Imho...many genuinerolexpurists are not living in the real world when it comes to their watches, they are living in their perception of the real world. "I am not a crook." Richard Nixon "I am not a purist." amc