automatico

If you can get replacement rivets it is fairly easy to take them apart and put them back together. Many supply houses now have 'big head' rivets that would probably work in the bracelet. I usually grind the rivet head down thin as I can without getting into the side plate, then punch the pin through the link...the thin rivet head will collapse and allow the pin to be punched through the link. edit: Prying the rivet heads off with a blade can result in bent or damaged side plates if the rivet is very tight in the rivet tube. http://www.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY-30&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1H-Parts-Band-Pins-w_Tubes&Product_Code

Invicta has nothing to be ashamed of. They probably make contraptions like this for two reasons: 1...To prove they can make a complicated piece of %#*! that actually runs. 2...See if some goofball will buy it. Repair guy: "Yeah I can fix your little one armed bandit watch...for $400,000. Either that or I will pay you $500 for the scrap gold in it."

"Would it be an easy tell if a gold rep is worn?" On gold plated watches the sharp edges tend to wear first along with the bezel area and bracelet where it contacts desks, tables etc. Look at the watch under bright light with a magnifier to find wear spots and discoloration, it is fairly easy to tell. Wear on gold plated cases is usually easier to spot than with steel cases that can be polished to hide light wear.

From my experience (not hearsay) Mary is 100% Ok. The problem will be when (not if) some noob-idiot tries to jam her up. She may not suffer fools like the regular TDs and be gone. I know what it is like to deal with noob-idiots on forums, it is why I do not post anything for sale although I may have to sooner or later. I wish her the best!

"I know some have made this mod so it is only a two position keyless, I'm just curious as to the best route for it." Might use the part for a 2801-2. Part number 445/2 'combined setting lever' aka set bridge. I never tried one on a 2846 though.

Forgot to say the gold guy is a heavy gambler/card player. Could not edit my post.

"I think that too much is only a pale border of life, this border is delineated so clear when your woman takes off your clothes from the closet of the bedroom and wants you get out home... only because of your fixation on watches. that finger pointed at the door is too much." I know two guys who are Gen-u-ine True Blue Rolex Freaks. One spent all his $$ on rolex watches and lost his job, wife, car etc. Have not heard from him since late 2001. The other is still buying and selling thanks to inherited money but not getting ahead. Know another guy who is a Gold Freak. He buys, sells, and trades gold objects of all types, every day of the week. He has been a ca$h millionaire and flat broke a few times since I have known him. He travels all over the southern US in a new Cadillac buying and selling gold, usually with a bodyguard riding shotgun. Bought a 12 size 14k Elgin pocket watch from him a few years ago so he could buy gas and something to eat. Do not know what his financial standing is at the moment, have not talked to him in a while but heard he was doing just fine. ca$h millionaire = folding money, not a $1m dirt farm with 7 milk cows that you owe $900k on.

All my Frankensteins are vintage relax submariner types and since I did not pay too much for the movements (1520/60/70/75) compared to today's prices, I am in pretty good shape as far as $$ goes. I can sell the movements for as much or more than I have in them and the cases...MBK/Yuki/IG44/Phong/DW...DW! will sell for a $100 or so less than I paid and on the watches I wore, I added oem type case tubes, drilled the lugs etc, took care of then, and did not attempt to artificially age them. I paid the going prices for the MBK watches at the time ($375 to $420) and the Yuki cases have not been worn. One MBK was a case only buy ($300) and two of the watches had swiss etas and two had clones. One had a hollow link 93150 and two others had solid mid links, two had no bracelets. The dials were Ok but not remarkable. The Phong 1655 case was purchased used from a member at a fair price so no loss there. The new dials left over are mostly Yuki and they will sell for 2/3 of the current price while the Yuki dials on the watches will go for about half price. A little loss maybe but not much. Do have one potential loss, a Phong 1655 that is not finished yet after 3 or 4 years...$3k and counting. All I need to do now is put it together. So...where did I lose? I have not lost much $$ (yet) as far as this hobby goes but I would need to sell a lot of stuff to get dead even or maybe a little bit ahead because all of it should sell for as much or more than I paid. I also did Ok on swiss eta replicas when they were available 12 or 15 years ago because the watches cost less than the movements do now and I still have most of them. All the watches I bought back then had new swiss etas in them...no junk, no clones. New movements back then were around $45 to $55 each in quantity and not much more from USA supply houses (I have some 2836 movements that were around $65 iirc from ST 25 years ago when they first started out). Plus I would still have all the cases, bracelets, dials etc left after selling the movements. Where did I lose while making a profit? Selling genuine rolex watches too soon before the market went crazy. That is where I lost my azz.

Imho... As far as rolex is concerned, the random serial numbers will help quite a bit but some of their Goofy Designs of the recent past will haunt them for years to come. One Goofy Design for example = the oversize DJ with the 'too wide bezel'. They look like a 13 inch wheel with a wide whitewall tire mounted on it. They fixed it with the latest design but with examples of both models in a showcase, anyone with design sense will go for the newer model leaving the older watches in the showcase. Small detail changes to boost sales in slow moving models will not help much either because the buyer usually wants the latest model, leaving older models in the showcase. "...watches "didn't have an expiration date like foodstuff"." "watches don't spoil, they do get stale" Two or three years in a hot showcase may dry the oil out. Sucker: "I've had this new watch only one year and it will not keep time." AD: "Sir, our factory certified technician says you have mistreated this fine watch and it needs the factory authorized full overhaul, only $1350 USD...plus parts and tax." Sucker: "Let me talk to your technician!" AD "Sir, he will not talk to the 'little people'. Let me walk you to the door." "US seemingly is very good for Rolex from what I can make out on the boards..." US rolex ADs used to whizz down their leg when the word 'discount' was mentioned but times have changed. Many smaller ADs are not in very good financial shape and offers are now being listened to. They still have at least four big problems though: 1...Younger people do not care much for watches. 2...Guys like me would not give half list price for 90% of the offerings. So...why not buy 'em and flip 'em? Because they will not sell for much outside the AD environment. Credit cards! In store credit! Two years same as ca$h! 3...Vintage watches are 'IN'. Newer models, not so much. 4...Women no longer want the hassle of an automatic watch and lady model DJ, OP, Prez used to be big sellers. (bought my wife a brand new sapphire tutone OP...wore it for a month, been in the safe for years) Cartier announced they were buying back nearly one quarter billion $$ dealer stock last fall. What are they going to do with all this stuff if they change designs before they can sell it thereby making it obsolete? Breitling has been on and off the rocks for years. Their 'in house' chronograph blew up in their face because of reliability problems and most of their chronograph dials look like a Las Vegas slot machine. (What time is it? Hell-if-I-know) Patek Philippe watches make me laugh. The price of a small house for $1000 in gold and $1 in brass. Omegas are Swatches.

I looked the movement up...it is a modified Soprod A10. I like the round case Turbine dial watches but they sell for more $$. http://www.ablogtowatch.com/perrelet-turbine-xl-watch-review/

British mil sub info: http://www.mwrforum.net/forums/showthread.php?78829-The-Early-Rolex-Military-Submariners

"...seems to be quite expensive for what it is." "...this one is too fussy for my liking." "Not exactly my cup of tea..." Agree. Here is what comes to mind: It is Pricey. The rotor on the front is a gimmick. Non watch types will tell you there is something loose on the front of the watch. Very few dealers/repair depots. No parts available (in this world) to anyone other than 'factory' repair outfits. Nice case and bracelet. It is a WatchTime Magazine watch. WatchTime Magazine watch = you never see one anywhere else.

"The way I look at watches like this is you can either build a franken or buy at the top end from a very reputable seller." Yep. I go with option 1. Frankenstein would be the only way to go at current prices. Q...Why? A1...Because I do not trust 'dealers/sellers' no matter what. I have known too many and most of them are slicker'n a newborn maggot. A 2...Because there is no telling where the market will go. A 3...Because we do not know how good the counterfeiters really are. The $130k '100% original and genuine' silly-milly sub sold at auction last year just might be a knockoff and get busted. That would kill the market. Knowing what I know (and it ain't much), I have no doubt whatsoever that it is possible to make brand new 'old' rolex watches today. Just look at how close we can get for $3k or less. How close could we get for $20k or $25k? Prettydamclose is my guess. You take a highly experienced vintage rolex guy with a machine shop and plenty of time (no wife/GF chewing on him 24/7, no cell phone/internet addiction), and he could surely crank out a perfecto case (starting with available offerings) in a month or two that would pass for 45 years old. The remaining hurdles are the dial/hands/bez/insert. No doubt there are 'specialists' somewhere making them too. Probably out west somewhere right now...pizzing on dials to age them in the desert sun.

Here are some prices from a Bernard Watch mail-out flyer before they went big on the internet: NIB w/p automatic TAG Heuer SEL 200M diver, steel with 18k bezel/crown. List $1695 $595 NIB w/p steel on strap Hamilton Khaki automatic chronograph (V7750). List $795 $350 NIB w/papers Breitling Spatiograph steel automatic. List $3225 $1475 NIB w/p 18k quartz lady Chaumet on bracelet. List $11,000 $3200 NIB w/p Ebel Voyager steel auto. List $3100 $1150 New TAG Heuer Formula plastic straps with signed buckles. $25 each New steel Tissot quartz diver on bracelet. $45 95% condition tutone automatic Breitling Cockpit chronograph on strap/deployant. $1250 93% steel automatic Omega Seamaster 120 on bracelet. List $1595 $750 90% Omega SMP Titanium and rose gold automatic. List $5795 $2800 87% steel 1960s steel Breitling Navitimer. $1050 80% steel automatic Breitling Yachting chronograph. $1050 95% Rolex 1803 DD Prez timehead on strap. $3590 90% R&B Rolex GMT plastic quick set on jubilee. $1695 85% steel Rolex OP no date on strap (1570). $700 Small red leather Rolex wallets. 10 for $100

Thanks for the info! A few years ago a guy at an NAWCC show said there were some very good 18k gold cases coming out of Vietnam. Never saw one that I know of and high gold prices may have killed them off by now. At the same time there were some high quality 18k unsigned cases made in Italy but gold prices have made them very expensive today. ST has them. My MBK cases are all exactly alike and all the specs are dead on. They are very high quality, especially considering what they sold for. Detailing and good letters/numbers would help a lot. From what I have heard, they are gone for good. I have two Yuki cases (5512, 5513) and they are very good too. The Yuki cases do not have the O ring groove under the crystal retaining bezel like the MBK cases. The grooves came in later genuine cases but do not know when they appeared. Yuki letters and numbers are pretty good. Have one IG44 1680 case, the fit and finish is superb but it has a slight 'canoe' shape looking at the sides, much like some the very early models I have seen in pictures. Do not know if they were made this way or the shape came from wear and polishing. Letters and numbers are very good. The case is shaped like on this 5513: https:// www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=178015 (close the gap between // and www)

Imho $468 is a lot of money for a replica watch with a throw away movement. It sure looks good though. 'BP Ultimate Swiss 2836' for $348 is not as bad. "I think if someone had a genuine Rolex, wanted to go traveling, overseas or to a large US city, New York City or Chicago for example and wanted to keep it safe in their bank deposit box, getting a clone duplicate would be a good idea." Agree. Probably a good idea if it was for peace of mind from fear of loss or damage. Otoh if the wearer was mugged, the result...robbery with/without injury or worse would be the same for a replica as a genuine watch (except for $$ loss). Most mugging victims probably claim their 'rolex' is a replica to keep the mugger from taking it. I used to travel quite a bit in the South Eastern USA and wore a low-key quartz Seiko or Swiss Army watch. About 8 years a go a friend went to an NAWCC show in Metairie Louisiana (New Orleans) and the desk clerk at his hotel told him not to wear a nice watch or be outside after dark, even in a crowd.

I ask a lot of dumb quesions. I have answered a few too. Questions: What is a 'Vietnam' case? I see them in projects or for sale on the forum. How does anyone know for sure where a case is made? Who sells 'Vietnam' cases? I remember back when River was selling rolex replicas and many said the watches did not have China cases, Taiwan maybe. Paul on Abay supposedly sold China cased watches as do probably 90% of the dealers back then and now. WLD cases were supposed to be 'better than average'...if you ever got the watch. Made in ?? MBW/MBK watches? I would guess MBW/MBK cases were Thailand made. Who knows? How about Yuki cases? Phong cases? I always figured the overall quality, accuracy, and detail were what mattered, not where they came from. If the case looks good, my next worry would be what type of metal did they use (most claim 316L). Or did they use: 201? (stainless cookware) 304? (outside structural applications) 316L? (common for watches) 404? (magnetic, easy to work with) UFO? UnidentiFied Old stainless scrap metal.

Q: "If I were to wear the above 2 clones on a daily basis, how long do you think they would last?" A: "...both can die within days." "The problem is you can't easily source parts, so if it dies you need to replace the whole movement." Good answer. My take on this subject is: No matter what the movement looks like, if it is not reliable and there are no parts available...what good is it? (not much imho) No one can see through the case anyway. I would rather have a reliable swisseta ticking away for years. If and when it needs parts, they are cheap and easy to find, plus anyone who can fix an average watch can work on one. Even me. One other problem with rolexclones (not eta base) is when you finally give up on one, an eta is not a drop in replacement...the dial feet, hands, dwo etc will not work on an eta. For this reason an etaclone may be a good/better choice first time around because when it quits, you can remove it, stomp it flat, and replace it with a swisseta. Just be sure to stomp it flat. Stomp? City Boys might need to look it up...

"I guess one good thing about these new Rollies, rep CGs will no longer be an instant "tell" anymore!" Yep, the SD 4000 almost looks good enough to pass for a high grade replica.

Seeing rolojack's 16600 SD for sale reminded me that I have two 'nos' 16600 SD that I got from 'River' 12 or 15 years ago. Does anyone remember them? If yes, how do they stack up against the later cartel SD? I compared them a while back (have one of the later cartel models too) and the River SD dial is very close and the case is as good...mine have holes all the way through the lugs (need to be drilled out) and 'new' swisseta 2836 but no numbers between the lugs. They have ratty bezel pearls and SEL with solid mid links in the bracelets but the links could be fixed. 'New' swisseta = new when the watch was new. 　 I know, I know..."Post a picture!" Well...I do not do pictures unless I have to (I only post meaningless BS) and have never posted a picture on RWG, or TRC for that matter. Why? Because I do not want the hassle of taking pictures and posting them...it's bad enough for me to list something for sale on eBay once in a while. I just wondered if anyone owns/owned a River SD from back then and has an opinion on how they compare to today's improved cartel offerings.

I agree with MMM. My experience with etaclones has not been real good but I have c/o a few so they would run reliably (more or less). The reason I work on (only my) etaclones is the total cost for c/o is probably somewhere in the neighborhood of $5USD or less each if no parts are needed because I do it myself for $0 per hour (my usual profit after expenses). Ha Ha. As far as paying someone to service one, imho the $$ would be better spent on a swiss eta. The catch is many swiss etas you see today are a conglomeration of old dry, dirty, worn out parts put together to pass the 'swiss eta' test and imho (again) they are not usually worth the $$ and effort needed to rescue one...probably be better off to buy a fresh one to begin with. I have put quite a few high mileage swiss etas together and they sometimes end up with parts from 2 or 3 different movements in them so if you do not have a few 'parts movements' you may spend as much on parts plus the basic movement as a new movement would cost. Btw, one good thing about the flood of etaclones is the 'GMT' models (non adjustable, ics) have the same parts as used on Asian modified swiss etas 10 or 15 years ago and all the 24H parts will work on swiss eta 2836. Some have good dwo too. "Seems these are almost becoming throwaways unless you can learn to do your own!" Sad but true. Same story with Asian chronographs. I took a Seagull ST19 (Venus 175 clone) apart before Christmas for c/o and I kept dodging the task of putting it together. I finally got it together last Friday. Nothing at all wrong with it except it was gummed up, I just do not like to work on them. In reality, they are not that bad but the longer you put it off, the longer you keep putting it off. Or something like that.

"As far as traffic here, this is normal for a message board after an update or code drop." The new sales forums for instance. "Watch nuts like us will remain watch nuts. The ones with money will continue to drive up prices of whatever is popular at the moment..." Agree. Vintage rolex has been on top for a long time but eventually no spare parts, insane service charges, laser welded genuine junk cases, plus replica cases and dials getting so good will scare many away...or price them out of the market. It did me, it's why I'm here.

I like the salmon dial AK. It's a sunny summertime watch. "I didn't stress over the 36mm case size..." Have a couple 36mm black dial 3-6-9 Air Kings from Abay years ago and they look like Explorers with regular hands and no SCOC blurb. What's funny is no one ever noticed they were too big even when they examined them...and a lot of people looked them over. I always thought the sapphire crystal 14000/14010 AK looked bigger than 34mm anyway.

Is everyone on vacation? I have been active on this forum since May 16, 2008 (started under another name before a server meltdown) and have never seen it this slooow. Only one post on the rolex forum in almost two days and 5 or 6 in general discussion. What's going on? Imho watches in general are rapidly dropping in popularity, especially mechanical watches. For proof (more or less) just read up on the swiss watch malaise, their business is down 30% or more overall and Richemont (Cartier, IWC, Montblanc etc) bought back almost a quarter $Billion (Billion with a B!) in watches etc from their retailers a few months ago (probably) to keep it from being deeply discounted or blown out on the internet. (see the article in Jan - Feb WatchTime magazine) 　 Why? My guess is: 1...Mechanical watches and quartzy fashionista watches (Cartier etc) are expensive to buy. 2...They cost a small fortune to repair...IF you can get parts. 3...No one really needs the hassle. 4...Cell phones/smarty watches. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not. 　 Now back to RWG...maybe the same maliase is affecting members here too. I know I am rapidly losing interest in mechanical watches (after 40+ years) mainly because I simply no longer need or want the hassles of a mechanical watch. We (replica guys) have double trouble...all the mechanical watch hassles plus the fact that a depressing percentage of what we buy is, well...just plain junk to put it kindly. Observations?

"And again, not really worth finding a WG crown." Agree. I had a nos 'two dot' WG 6mm crown and sold it a while back after not needing it for 20 years. The fellow who bought it told me good used examples were going for $100 to $150 at the time so imho a WG gold crown might be off limits because of the price of the crown compared to the price of the watch. If I remember correctly, the WG crown cost about $60 new while YG crowns were $35 at the time, they always cost more than YG and even more now. Something else...my WG crown was the older style with a gold cap crimped over a nickel silver body so the new 'monoblock' style with a solid gold body to match a newer model watch would probably be even more $$. I looked through all my 'take off' crowns and did not find one used WG crown in case I missed one. Matter of fact, I have never owned or worked on a WG rolex. Probably never will. Twenty five years ago when a used YG single QS Prez went for around $7k, a WG model would strain to bring $5k or $6k. Passed on a 'four digit' plat DD for $4k back then. Dumb. Times have changed...100% hindsight. Btw, I always thought a monoblock was an Amal carburetor. You can spot them because the crankcase (and the ground under it) is wet with gasoline. We called them 'monofloods'. If the cork gasket in the fuel cut-off valve on the tank leaked gas into the carbs (as usual), sometimes you had to remove the spark plugs, put the bike in gear, and push it backwards to blow the gasoline out of the cylinders before you cranked it because the needles and seats always leaked. If the bike had been parked a long time you had to remove the drain plug from the crankcase and drain the gas/oil out. They were dry sump so a half pint of Castrol would fill it back up (owned a couple Norton Atlas and a Tri-hump or two).