automatico

"...can you post a link to the Clark bezel? Thanks!" Clark is hit or miss on the bezels. http://stores.ebay.com/clarkwatchparts?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 This guy usually has them: http://stores.ebay.com/Rics-Watch-Repair?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 eBay item number 112425341989

"But if you are going to do a two tone I believe it need to be as close as possible to gen so the 28-- movement is out of the question." I don't know about that. I have a genuine rolex 15200 case/dial/hands/date wheel/case tube/crown/crystal with a nos Eta/Mido 12892 in it and no one can tell it is a 'stein except when setting the time. An RWG friend in Canada put it together a few years ago and sold it to me before he left the forum. Rolex 3035/3135 hands are 1.4 .95. .22 and Eta 28xx are 1.50 .90 .25 so genuine hands are fairly easy to fit. You can also turn the Eta hour wheel down a bit and not need to broach much at all out of the rolex H hand. Genuine 3135 date wheels turn the same direction as Eta 28xx so they can be used as a dwo. I put a couple tutone 162xx DJ together using the same components as in the 15200 but used a 2824 base movement. The outcome of a project like this depends on the skill of the builder so if you can not do it, you may not believe it can be done at a 'reasonable' cost. "Add in for the gen hands, crown, so on ..... but also if you go bracelet these projects will cost at least $3,000 plus but consider the cost of gen they are going as high as 10,000 for a good specimen and low end junk is still as much as 7,500 to 8,500 so they are a bargain if you want true wearable two tone!!" I do not know about that either. I have all the genuine parts except for the dial/case set and the parts did not cost much. I have two genuine rolex tutone heavy oyster bracelets but do not care for them on a watch such as a 16613 project. Rather have a strap. I bought the bracelets without clasps back before prices went crazy. Clasps...one was free and one was less than $100. Used crowns were $35 and new were $75. One bracelet is SS/14k from way back (I've had it 25 years) and the other is SS/18k...both were less than $400 each at the time. I used the ST case as an example because they are oem spec and the price is reasonable but they have no numbers/letters. Prices for projects depend on parts and labor costs. If you buy the parts at reasonable prices and can do all the work yourself...these projects are not overly expensive. I have posted this before, an example of what a do it yourself no gold project might cost: MBK 5513 project ended up costing about $1300 the last time around. $300 for complete case $102 for Yuki dial $25 for TC tube and crown $12.13 for ST hands $650 for rolex 1520 mvt $20 for mainspring $0 for c/o $85 for replica 358 hoods and put together '93150' bracelet, also have a folded oyster from 'Mary' that adds up to about the same cost. Use one or the other. $12 for GS crystal $68 for ST bezel kit (fit better than MBK bez with the GS crystal that was used) $25 misc...springbars, gaskets, case screws etc Had to use a 1575 date center wheel/cp and calendar spacer on the 1520 because the MBK 5513 case is made to 1680 spec, not 5513 spec. Extra cost is included with movement. The center sweep sec pivot is the same on 1520 and 1575, the 1575 second hand has a longer tube.

"Every guide I've found so far uses a GEN mid case and I simply cannot find any that are affordable." You might consider a replica 162xx type case. If the case is genuine spec an acrylic 135 crystal will fit. "I don't know where you would find gen cases these days. I used to get them off eBay for $100 back 10-15 years ago." I remember those days. There were some guys at NAWCC shows who bought complete steel sapphire DJ and took the movements out and sold the cases or bracelets/hoods for around $150 each, your choice. They told me they modified the movements to day-date and put them is 18k replica cases/bracelets. I bought two 'like new' 16200 DJ serial X10xxxx from a Texas watch trader/dealer in 1995 for $1250 each with b/p. Looking back, I should have bought ten. Same watch today in good condition will bring $2500+. Tutone DJ was the rage back then and steel was not as popular as now. Times change...bought a tutone 16233 on a jubilee for $1000 nine years ago. Thought I hit a Home Run. Still have it. Tutone is Not Hot. A beat up 5500 AK will go for more. One guy offered to trade me a washing machine for it...said he wanted it to wear to chicken fights. edit: I'm thinking it over.

Bombe! Very, very good job! I have a ref 1010 with Bombe lugs.

Good project! I have been thinking about a tutone sapphire submariner project for a long time. For anyone wanting a 'low budget' tutone sapphire 16613 type submariner...an ST case and 18k bezel will cost less than a steel 5513/1680 Yuki case. ST case and 18k bezel = $625. Add an insert, dial, hands, case tube, crystal, and crown + choice of movement. A genuine dial could sink the project so you will need to shop around. I could probably live with a 'refinished' dial from JKtimepiece on eBay or something similar. If you went with an swisseta 28xx, a finished timehead could come in around $1000 to $1200. Add a thick padded Croc strap and a big gold buckle and awaaay you go. I made (by lost wax casting) a few 18mm heavy 14k gold buckles a few years ago when gold was a little over $300/troz and they came in around $30 each dead cost. Now they would be maybe $120 or so but still not too bad. Most genuine rolex type solid gold buckles are skinny (gold saving construction) and only 16mm wide. Thick padded straps usually have 18mm or 20mm buckles so that is why I made some buckles. I just now weighed the buckles: One 14k solid 18mm buckle and tongue set = 4.7 grams. One 16mm solid 14k buckle and tongue set = 2.2 grams. No spring bars included. Gold is around $1250 troz so the 4.7 gram 14k buckles would cost approximately $110 USD to make today + labor and casting supplies. Be looking at $175 to $200 each from someone you know. Jewelry store price around $400.

"Cleaning glossy dials always gives me a headache..." Me too. I use AF Blue, similar to green 'Rodico' but better for shiny dials imho. Wear new rubber gloves when handling AF/Rodico that is to be used only on dials and do not use it on anything else. Use a blotting or rolling motion, do not drag it across a dial. It's good stuff! example: eBay item number 162115903985

I also vote for Misiekped. Q...Why? A 1...He knows what he is doing. A 2...He can get parts. The rolex 1520/30/60/70 is easy to work on, much like an old Bulova 11BLACD and many other movements from the fifties and sixties. The catch is parts. Always has been. Always will be.

That turned out real good. "...insert prices have gone mental over the last few years!" Faded inserts are going for more now than I paid for a 1675 with a faded Pepsi insert in 2007.

"I had heard that ETA stopped selling their movements commercially and was now only making them for other Swatch Group subsidiaries." Many USA supply houses have eta movements for sale although the prices are high. ST has 2836 now for $225...quite a bit compared to years past though as I have some new 2836 that were $65 a few years back...well, maybe more than a 'few' years. "It's a GMT Master II with a modified ETA 2836-2 movement." The 24 hour parts will work in a swiss eta 2836 if you get a clone and it bites the dust. "I tried passing on the savings of some over stock movements on the forums, but even with a giveaway price, no takers..." I saw that, a steal on the 7753...they are $650 at ST. Looks like the bottom is falling out of the snobby swiss watch biz...down about 30%. They might have to eat their own swiss cheese...with a Seagull pallet fork.

"Does anyone know if a 16000 caseback will fit on a 16200? I need a caseback for a 16200 and was wondering if any other models will fit the 16200." All steel/tutone 160xx cases have a flat case back gasket (rectangular cross section). The gasket fits onto the case back and seats against a flat area machined in the case. All steel/tutone 162xx cases have an O ring case back gasket (round cross section). The gasket fits into a groove machined in the case and the back screws down against it. Case backs have the same threads iirc but the sealing methods are different. Let me know if you need any more info and I will look at the cases. The 160xx cases have a bit more space (about .4mm) between the case tube center and dial seat than a 162xx case because the 3035 is thicker in this dimension. "I might build this into a 1016 Explorer. Not sure." 36mm DJ cases: https://rwg.cc/topic/92875-genuine-16200-case-set/ 34mm AK 5500, OP 1002 etc cases: https://rwg.cc/topic/186991-5500-akexplorer-project-tips/

I got 5512/5513/1680 bezel kits from three places that were first class quality and the same every time: Clark ST 'watchman408' on eBay (item number 112388732470)

Saw this and found it interesting. I do not agree with a few details but it is still enlightening. http://www.asian-watches.com/2015/02/the-great-chinese-swiss-watch-paradox.html#!/2015/02/the-great-chinese-swiss-watch-paradox.html I looked the Hamilton H74451833 up that is mentioned in the article and found one on eBay (item number 162492072705 for $369) and 5 or 6 other E-tailers had them listed but were 'currently out of stock'. Maybe they are like the Tissot quartz chronographs from 6 or 7 years ago that were for sale on eBay with steel case, Eta mvt, box, papers and all for $149 to $199 including delivery from China. The same watch (in appearance) was maybe $895 in USA retail stores. For all practical purposes they were identical as I had one of each and examined them closely. I can not remember the detail differences now but they were slight. At the time I figured the Tissot from eBay was an outright replica but knowing a bit more now than I did then and reading this article, they may have been like the Hamilton...a clones or ghost watches with no official status or warranty. When we had a watch store, we could get new Seiko 5 automatics from a gray market guy and starting out they were $35 each iirc. They were not sold in the USA to my knowledge at the time but were genuine Seiko watches with no warranty at all but they were all over eBay, mostly in China or Taiwan. We were a Citizen AD but not a Seiko AD and a few Seiko ADs said they could not get Seiko 5 automatics at all. We also got nib stainless steel Pulsar Kinetic 100M dive style watches and they arrived from England with no USA warranty...same movements as Seiko. It has been a few years but I think we paid $55 each for the Pulsars. New steel automatic Orients same as eBay item number 292038513460 were $35 each. I still have one with a bright green or blue (can not remember) dial because no one wanted it. edit: It's blue, I dug it out and looked. Not as bad as I thought.

"That's not strictly correct is it now, it's only a Rolex when it's built in their factory, buying all the bits and bobs separately and cobbling them together on your kitchen table doesn't make it a Rolex, only the real deal comes with their papers, same as the TC comes with his. Taking advantage of TC's good name is just poor form really." You are stepping on toes. This is not VRF. I also see a flaw in the statement above. If I buy a rolex 1520 movement on eBay or somewhere (no serial numbers on 1520), a used genuine Air King case, dial, hands, case tube, crown, plus crystal, and put it all together...how is it not the 'real deal'? Matter of fact I have a couple AKs made up this way. They look genuine to me and they will go through any 'official' rolex repair depot. I have owned a few hundred genuine rolex watches in the last 40+ years (no $hit) and maybe 30 or 40 had papers. I am sure some of them were 'put together watches'. They all were rolex watches just the same. By the way... Not all of us 'cobble' watches together. Some of us are pretty damn good at it.

"Nobody said they will be TC builds, I'm simply using the last of his parts that's all." Nothing at all wrong with that. A good idea imho. How come? 1...TC did not make the parts, he assembled 'TC Watches' from parts he gathered up. 2...TC looked long and hard for some of the parts and had them made to his specs but he has no claim to them once they are removed from the TC bags. 3...When the parts are out of the TC signed bags, they are simply 'replica watch parts'. A watch made out of 100% TC parts but assembled by someone else may or may not be a 'TC watch'. Say what? 1...If you have a watch made out of '100% TC Watch Parts' and assembled by TC...it is a 'TC Watch'. No question. 2...If you have a watch made out of '100% TC Watch Parts' and assembled by Joe Anonymous...what is it then? 3...Did TC put each and every 'TC Watch' together himself making them 'Official TC Watches'...or not? Who knows? It all makes my head hurt...

The MQ hands look pretty good, never used them though. ST has good quality hands for 3035/3135 at about $15 a set. Hand installing BS: Hands are usually damaged during installation by handling them with tweezers and/or by the pressing tool used to mount them. Many old timers simply pushed them down with tweezers...one slip and you might kill the hand and/or dial. I try to handle them with Rodico and use a Horotek hand press or pencil type hand press with plastic tips to mount them to prevent damage. Using a piece of thin clear plastic from a plastic bag etc between the hand and the press tool also helps prevent scratches. If the hands are mounted level and you still need to raise one slightly (by bending) to prevent contact, cut a piece of paper about 4mm wide and 50mm +/- long and bend it in a 'U' shape to lift the hand, being careful not to crack the luminous filler. To lower a hand by bending it, use a dowel or pencil hand tool padded with a soft material. Bending hands slightly for clearance is common. Many times hands will not fit (oem and aftmkt) and need to be broached or closed. This is relatively easy to do but requires a steady hand, a few simple tools, and some practice so I will skip it because I bore everyone enough as it is.

"Okay, well down the rabbit hole it seems like I am going, would something like this be superior with the metal dies?" It looks better, notice it is hand held without a base. One with a base is easier to work with but it should be Ok. When mounting crystals with magnifiers, be sure the die is deep enough so that it will not be pushing on the magnifier lens. If the die hits the magnifier you can drill a hole in the die where it hits to make room for the lens.

"So you must take guts out of watch (case alone) and insert off I gather, saw it done with watch basically intact online?" You can use a 'claw type' crystal lift that grips the crystal around the outside and squeezes it down to r/r the crystal. They sometimes leave marks/scratches but sometimes they are the only thing that will work. On older 'front loader' omega seamasters etc with 'armored' type crystals where the movement comes out the front, I pop the crystal out of the case using a Bergeon 5011 crystal pump to prevent damage. The omegas use straight sidewall 'armored' crystals with reflector rings and need to be pressed back in the case with a crystal press. Many have decorative bezels and the oem crystals are slightly 'mushroom' shaped and the slightly larger OD at the top of the crystal holds the bezel down on the case. If you use a regular armored crystal, the bezel ring is prone to fall off. Many watch Gomers will remove the bezel/crystal combo all at one shot with a blade and this can bend the bezel. The crystal pump has fittings that go over the case tube after the crown/stem has been removed. The stems are two piece snap together type. Front loader Benrus and many others use PHD type crystals and they are inserted with a claw type crystal lift. 'Armored' = straight side acrylic crystals with reflector rings. 'PHD' type crystals do not have reflector rings and usually have a slight [censored] around the bottom outside edge where they mount into the case. 'Front loader' watch = movement comes out the front side, they usually have a one piece case with or without a bezel ring. Some can be a real hassle. I just hit a few high spots but crystals are fairly complicated when you consider all the different types and r/r methods.

"So just checking, a cheap press should be adequate?" Cheap is Ok but one with metal dies would probably be better as the plastic dies are sometimes too flexible when pressing bezels over crystals allowing the bezels to get 'out of level'. Then you are in a mess because 'out of level' bezels can mark or crack the crystal sidewall and maybe even bend the bezel. I have a press similar to the one in the picture and use it to install plastic GS, Stella BB etc 'PHD' type crystals. On this type of crystal, you place the empty case on the base of the tool and use a small padded die on the bottom side of the press to push the crystal up against the top die (with tapered inside wall) that is a little bit larger than the crystal OD. Pushing the small die into the center of the crystal and up against the top die shrinks the OD of the crystal just enough to allow it to fit into the case without making a mark. As soon as the crystal fits into the bezel, you let the pressure off the press handle and the crystal expands and locks into the case. My press came with both straight side and tapered sidewall dies. I use the tapered sidewall dies on the top side of the PHD type crystals. Padded bottom die = a felt or chamois pad placed on the die so it will not mark the crystal. 'PHD' type crystals = 'snap in' type with no reflector ring. PHD is a GS Crystal Co designation that has become a generic term. For rolex type bezels I use an old cast iron 'BB' crystal press with aluminum dies. See the 9th post down in the 'Building an MBW Sub' sticky in the rolex section. "Are there any other parts I need to pick up besides the crystal and the crystal press? Any glues?" A good press and a precision dial caliper are all you need. Glue is a no-no unless the watch never gets wet. Reminder...generic crystals may not be oem spec...one might fit the watch and the next one might fit Uncle Buck's safety glasses. This is why you need the caliper.

Afaik they do have a little bitty spring bar in them. Saw one that fell apart on another forum a few years back, the guy who owned it could not believe how chintzy it was. I am not overly impressed with the complicated Glideflop clasp either.

Dan71: "Because my cartel 1680 bought the last year have engraved 1665 so I think that all 1665 have the same thickness than 1680/5512. But how much is thicker in mm your middle case and where you bought it ? Usual TD?" rolojack: "I even believe the old cartels are thinner since they used it to do other subs...." "In general: cartel cases are super fat vs gens. Which is good because it allows us to carve almost anything out of those pigs." I measured a 15 year old cartel SD case engraved 1665 with He valve and the mid case is 5.7mm thick at the center on the 3 and 9 o'clock side. The lugs are also 5.7mm thick tapering down to 5.0mm just before they start turning down to where the spring bar hole is. The 1680 submariner cases from the same period (same seller) are also 5.7mm thick, only difference is the He valve. They all have the case back gasket groove in the case like the SD...same case as SD. They all have regular low profile bezels.

5-12-2017 Added this from another thread, it pertains mostly to cases with a groove cut around the inside for case screw heads or clamps to fit into. There are four common styles of case screws: 1...Regular flat head screw. Self explanatory. Use the size that is needed. 2...Screw with a thinner, straight edge outside 'skirt'. The 'skirt' area is thinner than where the screwdriver slots is. This is probably the most common type, rlx p/n 7897. 'Skirt' screw: eBay item number 182288035756 3...'Knife edge' screw. Outer diameter is knife edged to fit where a regular screw will not go, rlx p/n 7896. 'Knife edge' screw: eBay item number 322379259479 4...'Notch head' screw: There is about one third of the screw head cut away. This is done so the movement can be inserted straight down into the case with the notches facing outward, then the screw is backed out (hopefully into the groove) to hold tension on the movement. This type of screw is sometimes a real pain because they will not turn into the notch because the screw head it too thick or has to be unscrewed too much to line the notch up to slip past the rail of the case groove when installing the movement/dial combo. This type of screw keeps from having to set the movement in the case where notches are cut in the case to allow for the case screw heads, then turning the movement to where it needs to be. 'Notch head' screw: eBay item number 152410745980 On a few projects, I used case screws and case clamps because the screws would not line up in the groove in the case. MBK Frankenstein '5512' for example. Knife edge screws may have worked but I went with screws and clamps because you do not have to turn the movement/dial combo in the case to put it in the correct position. Turning the movement/dial combo in the case can scuff paint off the outer edge of the dial. Tip: If the movement/dial combo gets stuck in the case when turning it to the correct position...use a pin wrench to turn the movement/dial combo one way or the other. There are two holes in the back side of the main plate where the tips of a pin wrench will fit...this should prevent damage or scratches to the movement when turning the movement/dial combo. I have had some movement/dial combos stuck tight in the case, not just on project watches but on genuine watches as well. Try the movement/dial combo in the case without case screws first to make sure there is no binding. Usually they hang up because the case screws get stuck in the groove in the case. Cheapo pin wrench: eBay item number 252149585873

"Also if you build a 16800 you need to build it with a matte dial or what's the point?" Agree. Otherwise it is just a 16610 with lug holes and a bracelet with hoods.

Gary Clark has a lot of omega crowns. Maybe not the correct one though. http://stores.ebay.com/clarkwatchparts/Omega-Factory-Crowns-/_i.html?_fsub=110714219

If 1575 = rolex 1575 movement, there are four styles of case screws: 1...Regular flat head screw. Self explanatory. Use the size that is needed. 2...Screw with a thinner outside 'skirt'. The 'skirt' area is thinner than where the screwdriver slots is. This is probably the most common type. 'Skirt' screw: eBay item number 182288035756 3...'Knife edge' screw. Outer diameter is knife edged to fit where a regular screw will not go. 'Knife edge' screw: eBay item number 322379259479 4...'Notch head' screw: There is about one third of the screw head cut away. This is done so the movement can be inserted straight down into the case with the notches facing outward, then the screw is backed out (hopefully into the groove) to hold tension on the movement. This type of screw is sometimes a real pain because they will not turn into the notch because the screw head it too thick or has to be unscrewed too much to line the notch up to slip past the rail of the case groove when installing the movement/dial combo. This type of screw keeps from having to set the movement in the case where notches are cut in the case to allow for the case screw heads, then turning the movement to where it needs to be. 'Notch head' screw: eBay item number 152410745980 On a few projects, I used case screws and case clamps because the screws would not line up in the groove in the case. MBK Frankenstein '5512' for example. Knife edge screws may have worked but I went with screws and clamps because you do not have to turn the movement/dial combo in the case to put it in the correct position. Turning the movement/dial combo in the case can scuff paint off the outer edge of the dial. Tip: If the movement/dial combo gets stuck in the case when turning it to the correct position...use a pin wrench to turn the movement/dial combo one way or the other. There are two holes in the back side of the main plate where the tips of a pin wrench will fit...this should prevent damage or scratches to the movement when turning the movement/dial combo. I have had some movement/dial combos stuck tight in the case, not just on project watches but on genuine watches as well. Try the movement/dial combo in the case without case screws first to make sure there is no binding. Usually they hang up because the case screws get stuck in the groove in the case. Cheapo pin wrench: eBay item number 252149585873

"(StarTime) They told me they only deal with watchsmiths. Their bevel crystals are exactly the same as gen." Their crystals are identical to oem in my experience. They offer two grades of sapphire crystals so be sure to get the swiss made version.