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In 2015 I was looking for a genuine 24-V50 1665 escape valve to compare with what came in Paul/Abay 1665/5514. A used one on Chronoshop was over $200USD. Plus shipping. Bought one new in the package for less than $50 on eBay. Btw...the Abay valve assembly is oem spec. I made a few but can not find them. They must have ran away with my 8115 balance stop springs. I put a BOLO out.

panerai153: "So, to me the lines between genuine and replicas will become more and more blurred over time." I agree. While at the same time it makes me wonder if the 'Rolex Purist Rules' will relax a little over time. Probably not because most of them are cod locked on 100% gen-u-wine. 'Genuine' recased rolex watches with 444 serial numbers are not popular with purists and the cases are supposedly genuine. Btw, I wonder if you can tell a Yuki 444 case from a 'genuine' 444 case? Same goes for laser welded cases if it can be detected (aka weld-o-lex). The large number of vintage rolex watches with corroded cases (aka corrode-o-lex) is another reason for going the Frankenstein route. Rolex watches with 444 cases, corroded cases, or welded cases would seem to be more suited for selling or everyday watches but not as keepers. Imho. I would rather wear a $2500 Frankenstein 5512 with a new aftmkt case than a ratty (albeit genuine) $12,000 corrode-ro-lex 5512 that looks like it fell out of a plumber's crack tool bucket. Real plumbers carry tools in 5 gallon sheetrock mud buckets.

"...gen bezel should be pretty damned difficult to dislodge so the story of losing it during a round of golf seemed pretty tenuous." Genuine submariner 55xx, 1680, 16610, GMT etc of the same era have bezels that are fairly easy to knock off. I have pulled a few off by hand...just push down hard toward the center on one side and pry the other side up with fingers. Gold bezels are even easier to remove and lose. A bump against a door frame or reaching into a tight pocket will often knock a bezel ring off. Imho they are made this way so the gomers at their repair shops can r/r them easily...and sell more bezels. Older models, 6538 etc had spring wire bezels and they stayed in place but many were bent or broken by careless removal. As for replicas with spring wire bezels...try to r/r the bezel on an F520117 noobmariner. If you do not know 'the trick' you will bend it.

Edit: My Canal Street 'submariner' is a fake. My MBK 5512 'submariner' with 1570 is a fake. ...but it's a damn nice one.

My Canal Street 'submariner' is a fake. My MBK 5512 'submariner' with 1570 is a replica.

"I'm chasing after the most ideal 1655 midcase for my project." I started a 1655 project a few years ago and bought a slightly used Phong case from a member at that time. Since then I have looked at just about every 1655 replica case pictured on this forum and others and it seems to me the Phong cases are as good as any and better than most. The numbers and letters on my case are very good too. There was a Phong 1655 case for sale on the forum about 8 months ago (sold in a couple days) but I have not seen one on here since then. My guess is many 'aged' Phong 1655 cases are making the rounds at watch shows posing as 'original and genuine' watches. Ha! https://rwg.cc/topic/186579-phong-and-ndt-parts-for-franken-rolex/

Many after market/replica oyster style bracelets have suitable hollow round top end links so maybe you can find one. That is what I did. You can remove the figure 8 links by spreading them apart carefully so they will come off the bracelet.

"In the long run I think the Chinese will get better and better at movements." I believe they will too. I spent a few hours taking a DG (Miyota 82xx clone) apart for clean/oil it and it looks like there has been some progress made between the first models and what is available today. The plates are better finished and they seem to run a little better. I always had better luck with DG movements than the Nanning (NN) 82xx clones and have not worked on an NN movement lately to see if there is anything different in them...probably could not tell anyway. There are three aggravating things (to me) about the DG: 1...The date works are not very easy to assemble (understatement). 2...Too many parts stuffed under one plate...train wheels, reverser etc. 3...The balance jewel shock springs are not anchored in their settings and are prone to go into orbit. Also, when installing the springs you must be careful not to install the spring backwards in the setting because it will not lock down. It will stick in the slot and the watch will run but sooner or later the spring will pop out and the jewel will fall out. I may have to let off a little when dissing China '21 jewel' movements.

"I believe if anything kills mechanicals again it will be the lack of repair people. There are too few watch schools and too few watch repairmen." Agree. Then there is the added insult of the greedy swiss watch companies cutting off parts to the independent repair trade in order to force owners to use their stab-you-in-the-back 'factory authorized' service centers. What if your dishwasher, refrigerator, lawn mower, TV, motorcycle, ski boat, vacuum cleaner, car etc could only be serviced by 'factory authorized' repair centers with no parts available to independent repair shops. There would be a consumer uprising...and there should be. I believe normal people will simply quit wearing high $$ mechanical watches after getting burned a time or two. Normal = not a die hard watch nut (like me).

One thing that never changes: There will always be change. Take watches for instance, in my lifetime wristwatches have gone from mechanical wind-ups and automatics to the not so reliable Hamilton Electric, reliable ESA balance wheel electrics, so-so Timex balance wheel electrics (but better than the Hamilton Electric for 1/6 the cost), accurate and reliable (but hard to work on) Bulova Accutron, then all the various common digital and analog quartz watches of the past 30 years. The Seiko Astron was known as one of the first 'consumer' quartz watches along with the Hamilton Pulsar digitals and they were very expensive to begin with ($1250 for the Astron in 1969 = $8500 today), but as time went by quartz watches went from being a luxury to reliable everyday watches costing on average $20 to $200 today. I never liked quartz watches very much, but only because of the constant whack! whack! whack! of the second hand jumping one second at a time. That's it. I liked the reliability, accurate time keeping, low maintenence, and low cost of them and 'two handers' were Ok by me (Movado Museum for instance). Many watch guys defend the rolex 'oysterquartz' as a milestone etc but to me it was just another quartz watch with the added complication of an escape wheel and pallet fork along with the same old whack, whack second hand...and they were not overly reliable, infamous for doa step motors and circuit boards that cost a fortune to repair. Not much of a watch imho...I owned three of them. Take the name off the dial and they would be a $125 watch. So why did mechanical watches make a comeback from the quartz curse known as 'the death of mechanicals'? Nostalgia? Did everyone miss the torture of high $$ repairs and maintenance? Who knows? My main question is: If some watch companies made high grade quartz watches today with 'smooth sweep' second hands, jeweled pivots, decorated bridges, and fine casework along with models featuring complications...would mechanical watch guys buy them? Smooth sweep second hands and finer movements/cases being the main differences from what is available today. Examples...The Grand Seiko and Spring Drive high grade quartz watches seem to get compliments from all types of watch guys and the Precisionist/Accutron II is back with a 'smooth sweep' second hand, high accuracy, reliability, and not too much $$ so is it enough to change anyone to go from the tortures of mechanical to the pleasures of quartz? The Precisionist/Accutron II movement is not much to look at because it is made for low cost but it is jeweled and could easily be dressed up. They dressed up the front side of the Alpha Spaceview but it was not much of an effort. Btw...something I have noticed lately is every one of my watch trader friends are wearing quartz watches. They carry mechanical watches in pouches but no longer wear them. Saw a quartz Omega SMP, Seiko chronograph, Luminox, Marathon SAR...and a black Oceanaut (whatever that is). Accutron II or Precisionist for me. I tried to wear my 'Frankenstein 5512' (1570/MBK/Yuki) last week but gave up after three days. Time may change me But I can't trace time David Bowie

"If I were you I'd just keep it." Good advice. In 2 or 3 years you will miss it. I kept a couple 'nos' F520117 swisseta 'noobmariners' from 10 or 12 years ago. Glad I did. Now they are repli-classics. Sort of... One that I traded away in 2005 came in last week for a new crown. Twelve years with one c/o and a crown. Not bad. noobmariner story: http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=5622

It looks good. If they can make this and 'retail' it for $428 (manufacturing cost probably around $150/175), it makes me wonder how much it cost the swatchies to make a real one. My guess is $2000USD plus a little for a gold or platinum case. Breguet = one of many swatch sideshows. Not knocking it but it reminds me of the insides of a Big Ben alarm clock. Gold costs $200 troz more than platinum so why do plat case watches cost almost twice as much? It sure as help ain't the cutting tools.

The seller may set the asking price at whatever they want but the buyer always sets the buying price. Hence the acronyms OBO, OBRO.

"But it's agreed that these are both Asian?" Yes.

Good Times. This was when the better factory made replicas started showing up in quantity. Before that, the 'good' replicas were usually home made by watch nuts. Made up an stainless IWC Ingenieur about 25 years ago....still have it, still looking for a 'fish' crown for it. 'Rick' TRC member 43, 11-26-2002. Before that was on RWCC. 'Paul' was the 'trusted dealer' on TRC after 'favorite trusted dealer' WLD ran off with some $$. ...including mine. Paul was A-Ok. River was too, and Eddie Lee.

"Hey guys can anyone chime in and tell me what kind of movement this is?" The base movement is a Seagull ST16. The movement with the red wheel is a basic Miyota clone, could be made by Nanning, DG etc. The Seagull ST16 is probably at the top of the '21 jewel' pecking order. It is also the base movement for the 'swiss made' Claro-Seamag CL-888. http://www.watchfreeks.com/115-watch-movements/3864-claro-semag-cl-888-a.html "...are all 21j's Asian?" On this forum, yes, it is a generic term. There are many swiss and japan made 21 jewel movements though.

Good luck. Never had much luck with DHL. Last straw...paid $50 or $60 for 3 day 'guaranteed delivery' on a 1016 dial from Denmark and it took a month and two trips around the world. Package looked like it had been shot out of a cannon. Dial was Ok thanks to the metal cup it was in. No discount on shipping. No apology. Said they delivered it, Ka-Bang! Dial tone..................... Never again. F'em. Holding back. Trying to be nice on here.

"Almost every sale was a 'Franken' this or that...and the asking price(s) purely unreasonable." I've noticed this too. Add a genuine crown and it's a $1000 'Frankenstein'.

"I've seen some extra tall dial spacers but haven't found them to purchase separately. Likely the rep makers include them in certain builds." So far, I have been able to get by with punching dimples in the original spacers when needed...the dimples only amount to .2mm or .3mm so the stems still line up Ok. I have also made brass spacers that are tall enough to mount the dial on for a few projects that had dials with no feet...the distance above the movement needed for the date disc can be figured in when making the spacer. A friend with a machine shop turned a stack of 2.3mm thick brass flat washers down to 32mm od with 24mm centers for spacer blanks. The washers were originally about 20mm id x 50mm od iirc. It usually takes an couple hours to make a spacer using one of the rough blanks on my small Sherline lathe.

"Yeh, selling the dial might be the best idea. Building a franken 1680 can easily run $2500-3000 with a good case and a 1575 movement." True. Maybe start from scratch and go with an Eta 2846 etc and a Yuki dial. It is not hard to modify an MBK 5512/5513/1680 case to accept an oem spec 1680 dial but it really needs to be done on a lathe. Otoh, with Eta movements you may have DWO/date magnifier hassles. A 5512/5513 project is much easier. I wonder if a Yuki 1680 dial made for an Eta 28xx has the standard Eta date offset or standard rolex date offset? Probably seen it here but can not remember. If the dials have the Eta offset, crystal magnifiers will be a problem. It seems today's high prices for 1520/30/60/70/75 movements have put the brakes on Frankenstein projects. Plus many of the movements need relatively expensive parts and you have to pay The Doctor Price for rolex movement service. ...and The Nurse Practitioner Price for Eta service.

There are three main problems with date wheel overlays (DWO) on eta 28xx movements: 1...Date wheel overlay rubs the underside of the dial because it is mounted on top of the original date wheel. This causes the date to change half way, not at all, or at random times during the day...random times because it sticks for a while, then comes loose. 2...Trouble installing the date wheel with overlay installed. 3...Hands too close to the dial. 1...Easy fix for problem one is to put a series of dimples in the calendar spacer ring so the dimples will hold the dial a fraction of a mm higher above the DWO. Use a small screwdriver or punch to make the dimples and try to make them all as close to the same as possible. Not much is needed, just enough to keep the DWO from rubbing the dial. Reminder: taller dimples = less space between dial and hands, less purchase for hands on CP/hour wheel. 2...There is no easy way to install a date wheel with the DWO installed but it is easier if you remove the date jumper plate (and spring) when removing the date wheel and install them after the dw with overlay is put back in place to prevent damage to the dw and overlay. Look at a parts pic to find the date jumper plate (p/n 2595), the date jumper aka 'index spring' (p/n 2784) is under it. Most of the hassle is caused by the index spring (with slight tension on it) being mounted under the date jumper plate, but with a little practice it becomes easier. Take care not to dislodge the DWO from the date wheel with a screwdriver or the screw when r/r the screw holding the jumper plate because there is very little space between the screw and DWO. You might get by with removing the other part that holds the calendar wheel in place...minute train bridge (p/n 462), but it has two little wings that have to be slid into slots in the plate plus the screw that holds it in place is partially covered by the DWO so it is easier to r/r the date jumper plate and spring. 3...The not so easy fix for problem three is a taller canon pinion, hour wheel, and sweep second pinion but they are not very expensive and are easy to get. You could also raise the hands on the original tubes a little bit but this will not help very much.

This is probably no help at all but I have a couple reference 6605 DJ watches with roulette DW so I looked the rlx pn up and the DW for the cal 1065 ref 6605 is the same pn as a 1065GMT movement in a ref 6542...pn 7090. Maybe the same roulette DW was used in many of the 10xx movements. Trivia...the numbers run clockwise on the 1065, 1065GMT etc but run counter clockwise on the day-date models with this base movement.

"Wrong CG shape, Aspirin dial, wrong bezel teeth." "If u want a decent 1675 get an 1655 case." ...plus bracelet side links are a little bit too thick and slightly humped up on top making them look thick, fast beat movement, etc. Genuine rivet oyster side links are slightly curved but are the same thickness all the way across. My guess is it will cost $700 to $1200 to put one of these watches together using medium to high quality parts so it might be better to start with a good 1655 case, high quality dial/hands, swiss eta 2846 with Asian 24H conversion or DG 3804B and go from there. ...or buy the one relalxman has for sale. I have one of the 1675 GMT models from 10 or 15 years ago with a swiss eta 2836/Asian 24H conversion and was going to make a 'better' 1675 by swapping the 2836 out for a 2846 but decided it would be a lot easier to just let it be a later model quick set 28800 bph 16750 with printed marker dots and matte dial. It has the OPD dial on it so there is not much hope without a dial anyway and it came with a 6mm crown, not 5.3mm. Have not seen a replica 1675 that came with a 5.3mm crown...yet. I bought some dials from IG44 when they were in business (two red 1680, three 5513, one 5512) but did not think far enough ahead to get 1675 or 1655 dials for my other projects. 100% hindsight. The IG44 dials are very, very good imho.

"Does one use a special tool for setting the new rivet head?" The heads are not a tight fit in the tube so no special press or punch is usually needed. I use Craftsman (Sears) 'Robo Grip' parallel jaw pliers with the jaws ground smooth to press the rivet heads into the tubes...flat jaw type, not pipe jaw type. It was fairly easy to grind the serrations off the jaws and smooth them out. Cut the rivet tube to the correct length so the rivet head bottoms out on the tube at the exact point when the tube is even with the outside surface of the side plate and the links are correctly spaced (for bracelets made so the tubes pass through the side plates). I just now looked at a genuine swiss made stretch rivet oyster bracelet (hollow rivet heads) and the side plates are drilled to allow for the rivet tube to come all the way through the side plates. I have seen aftmkt rivet bracelets made where the tube passes all the way through the side plates and have also seen a few that were made so the rivet head clamped the tube to the side plate because the hole in the side plate was smaller than the rivet tube. The type where the tubes pass through the side plates are easier to work with imho. The advantage to bracelets made so the rivets clamp the side plates is they are a little bit stiffer and not as flexible after the links begin to wear. The type made where the rivet tube passes through the side plate depends on a precise fit between the outer and inner links to keep it from being too flexible. After you take one of these bracelets apart you will quickly see what's what. The hollow head rivets are near impossible for a hobby guy to duplicate so all the above pertains to rivets with removable rivet heads unless noted. Cut the tube too long and there will be a space between the rivet heads/plates and the links will be loose with spaces between the center link and outer links. Cut the tube too short and the links will bind. Good luck!

"I have 3 i'm building and 58 watches in my two watch drawers in my closet lol of which 8 are high cost frankens, 12 Gens and the rest are various watches i seen and liked over the years.. some modded, some i have no idea when or where i bought them. Of all of those i probably have worn 25 of them." I know exactly what you mean. I have a few I wear and a bunch I never did and never will wear. Every time I look for something, I run across a watch or two that I can not remember where or when I got it. I keep records back into the 1980s so usually it is written down and I can trace the watch. What is bad is when I discover I bought the watch 25+ years ago and now it needs c/o, gaskets etc just to get it in condition to wear or sell. It's a little bit depressing. Some of the watches are in very good condition from the 1950s through the 1980s that would make good 'now and then' watches for someone who likes vintage mechanicals. Recent example...found a 1970s Seth Thomas 'Stingray' dive watch (some were branded Roamer) that I bought in 1993 for $60, traded it away in 1999, and traded for it back in 2009. I did not remember getting it back. Here is a picture of one: http://www.clickover.com//showoriginal.pl?set=91af68a1e748e6a98deb&p=1