automatico

"What percentage of the Vintage Rolex watches out there are in fact Frankens of a kind?" Many, many more than suspected would be my guess. They would have to be so good that no one can tell after they leave The Doctor's Laboratory. We assume the best cases available come from Phong, Yuki etc but there are probably a few 'unknown' case makers who are a lot better that we do not know about, same goes for dials etc. I say this because vintage rolex watches have gone up tremendously in price and the profit margin would now be large enough for a skilled 'fabricator' to go to the effort. A skilled, dedicated machinist could make cases exactly the same as genuine...if they wanted to. All they need is a case that is very close to genuine to start with. I doubt anyone would go to the trouble to make cases from sheet metal blanks though. For example...being the Dumbass that I am, I can make near perfect 1600/16000/16200/1016 smooth bezels from bezel blanks (cut from 316L seamless ss tubing), and RWG's resident machinist can surely make them faster and better...but it is simply not worth the effort. Besides, ST now has 16200 smooth ss bezels for $15! No way I can beat that. I have seen a few high grade replica cases from the Regular Suspects and the only thing that prevents them from passing the 'genuine test' is usually the lettering and a minor detail or two. It just seems like they do not care enough to go the extra mile. Lettering/case numbers etc...many do not realise how difficult it is to match genuine vintage letters and numbers. They look like a cross between hand work and an engraving machine...very, very hard to duplicate.

"I believe that's a good trade off. The 1030's are getting so long in the tooth, I just don't think they will stand up to hard everyday use." +1 A 1520 or 1570/75 is still Ok for general use but the 1030 is over the hill imho. General use = everyday wear but no crash/bang activities. The 1570 is really not very rugged because of the ruby winding rotor jewels etc and balance staffs are fairly easy to break like all mechanical watches. I have four apart right now, one for a balance staff, one for a winding rotor axle, and two for general c/o. In reality they are 'lookers and talkers', not 'tuff guys'. I believe the swisseta 2824/36/46 etc are The Project Kings for practicality.

I like TAG Heuer watches too, but only the simple non chronograph Eta 955.xxx quartz models that cause almost Zero trouble over the years. I wear one a lot that was made in the late 1980s...a 'TAG 1000' (980.028N). I have written a couple notes about it before...paid $40 for it and fixed it up, now a little over $100 etc. Have the same watch in an automatic that is waiting for c/o and another watch that is almost the same as the quartz TAG 1000...a Zodiac 'Red Point' from the 1990s when TAG Heuer owned Zodiac for a while. What I like best about TAG Heuer is you can find them cheap in average condition and it costs very little to get one back in tip top shape, especially since ST and Clark's have case tubes and crowns for them. They are thinner and not as big in diameter as today's 'Super Sized' dive watches and you do not feel like you are wearing a 'Big Mac' on your wrist. Also have a couple 'Aquaracers' and a 'Link' but still like the older models best. The Link is between a dive watch and a dress watch (dressy diver?) with a 200 meter rating, sapphire crystal, rotating bezel etc but with a dress style clasp...no diver extension, quicky bracelet adjustment or anything. I used to wear quartz Seiko dive style watches a lot but it seems (to me) that Seiko has lost its way. They do not have many simple low profile dive style watches that appeal to me anymore...mostly just Flash! Bang! Whoppers now like everyone else. Why am I bragging on quartz watches, especially the Rodney Dangerfield of swiss watches...TAG Heuer? Because I trade and work on mechanical watches but can not stand to wear the expen$ive!, no parts 4U!, fragile!, little sobs very much. The Parachrom Blu hairspring is no match for a quartz oscillator.

j72..."It will have gen spec 1.8mm..." mmm..."I measured 2 of my gens and 2 of my crystals, all four were exactly the same thickness !.98mm." (1.98mm) Since I posted about my crystals being 2.02mm, I checked a few more genuine crystals and they are all 2.0mm - 2.02mm. Some are from the late 1980s when they first showed up on steel DJ and all are original to the case...none are late enough to have the etched coronet. Also checked three ST aftmkt sapphire 295C replacements and they are 2.0mm. The ST crystals are exactly the same as genuine in all respects...except the price.

"the rotor on the movement he helped me source is making a funny noise. (Maybe it just needs oiled?)" If it is 'chattering' it needs to be cleaned and oiled...take the autowind assembly apart and c/o it being careful not to switch reverser parts around. Make sure you c/o both rotor jewels. Rotor axle and intermediate wheel uses (NYE) PML 163 or equivalent. I use Mobius D5, a thick petroleum oil. D5 oil will last a long time so do not worry about it being 'old style' petro oil. I do not have any PML 163 or PML 80. Intermediate wheel can also use PML 163. I use D5 here too. Intermediate wheel = the brass wheel with a steel gear that winds the mainspring. Reverser pawls and pivots use Mobius 9010 etc...M9010 is a thin $ynthetic oil. If it is 'rattling' the rotor post may be worn or a rotor jewel broken...inspect these parts under a 10x loupe and look for drag marks on the outside edge of the movement where the rotor has been dragging. To test for rotor rattle...hold the watch (without bracelet) dial up or dial down beside your 'good' ear, shake it up and town and listen for a rattling sound caused by the rotor flopping up and down on the rotor axle. A dry aw assembly will make a little more noise than one that has been recently oiled. You really need to shake a watch known to be in tip top condition for a reference before shaking your watch because they all rattle a little bit. Watch crooks have been known to put a dial washer between the rotor and aw body to quiet down rotor rattle. PML 80 has replaced PML 163 in many service manuals. http://shorinternational.com/WatchOilGrease.php It ain't cheap! That's why I use D5. http://forums.watchuseek.com/f6/newbie-lubrication-q-647540.html

Valty: "Pushers holes are NOT at the Rolex specs. It is ~2,4mm instead of 2,5mm. Means, it works fine with the Phong aftermarket pushers, but you CANNOT fit gen pushers if you want to. Threads are very very thin, and my WM strongly discouraged me to retap / refill the pushers holes." "Lugs holes are NOT at the good position at all. I've seen that more that one time, and it's almost IMPOSSIBLE to fit the correct end links, a.k.a. the 571. The most stupid thing is you are forced to use DateJust 557 end links if you want to stay "cheap" but gen. What a shame. 　 And it seems it's happening with the majority of the Phong cases I have seen so far. 　 Sometimes, the hole for the case tube is not at the Rolex specs. Hopefully, it didn't happen to me, but this is a real, real, real shame considering the price he is asking for his cases. 　 Fortunately, he is the right person to choose if you want to fit your gen parts on your case because he know his cases, and he have the right tools to do the job. 　 　 This looks to me like someone passing off $50 cases for $1000 after a few minutes of 'detailing'. It seems there is a LOT of this going around. F333: "So, as much as I hate to say it, this seller should be treated with caution. To be charging the inflated prices he charges for standard rep-quality wares is outrageous. At least in my book. If you are considering buying something from Phong, be aware that you are throwing the dice." 　 "DW cases have similar issues, but at least DW sells his cases for a more realistic price." I am going to stay away from Daytona projects but I have used a few DW 5513/1680 cases and with all things considered, they are a bargain in today's price inflated market...if you have a lathe etc. I lit him up when I got the first case but since Clark bezel kits came out, DW cases can be made to work Ok and genuine movements will fit the cases I have. 　 　 　 pc: "Damn.. I just emailed for a price quote on a 1655 case. I don't think I want to deal no more." denimhead: "I've had exactly the same experience regarding Phongs cases over the years. In particular the 1655 case is totally off in terms of dims and spec. Its just a Sub case in disguise in my humble opinion." Seems there is a lot of this going around. I have a Phong 1655 case that I got from another member and it is fine but I would not buy anything after reading all the complaints. Valty: And even bad watchmakers are claiming they are good... I'll make a thread about this one day." A lot of this around too.

A 'moon phase' is 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes. Very few watches have a way to make the moon phase follow this schedule so they simply use a 31 day calendar wheel to display the moon in a window. Every month or two you need to adjust the moon in the window to show a 'full moon' at the correct time. I have an old 'Colours' quartz moon phase watch on my desk that has been running for close to 20 years (with a few batt changes) and I set the calendar and moon every time there is a short month so the moon does not get out of whack very much. http://stardate.org/nightsky/moon

"Well I do believe the 21j 2892ers (ST and ETA) are 'ok' also." You got me on that! I never think of the Eta 2892 when 21 jewel movements are cussed and discussed. I took the time to c/o a few asian Miyotaclones (DG/NN) and they ran Ok. I like the Seagull ST16 best of the Miyota clones...it is really a semi Miyotaclone and it is a Miyota 8215 clone with Seiko type autowinding. "It depends on where those jewels are located and how the movement is designed." My 100 jewel Waltham is proof of that. The Waltham 100 has a 17 jewel movement with 83 cap jewels mounted on the case spacer. http://people.timezone.com/library/workbench/workbench0025

"What I mean, is a 25j much better than a 21j?" If '21j' = china made DG, NN, ST etc and '25j' = swiss Eta...the answer is a definite Yes (from experience). If '25j' = china etaclone...the answer is probably (imho).

"What's the best way to remove superglue using acetone? I tried unsuccessfully and all the residue still remains." Soak the part if you can. Be careful as acetone will melt some plastics. "I superglued the endlinks on. Please don't laugh." Ok.

MD is right about the current batch of swisseta powered watches, there is no telling what you might get. A friend gave me a new '16610' with a doa swisseta 2836 to get running and it was so dirty it would not hit a lick...it was swiss though. How dirty was it? It was so dirty and gummed up that I removed the dial, balance etc and soaked it in naptha before taking it apart and sticking it in 'official' L$R watch cleaner. If I was going to buy a new or like new 'keeper' replica watch, I would get one with an asian 2824/36 and hope for the best. Meanwhile, I would scour eBay and find a reasonably priced watch with with a genuine Eta that will fit the 'keeper' watch, buy it, and put it away. When the asian etaclone breaks down (sooner or later), have the swiss eta c/o, stick it in the 'keeper' watch, and give the etaclone to a forum member for parts. Btw... Naptha aka mineral spirits is basically the same thing as petroleum based watch cleaner but a LOT cheaper. Coleman etc camp lantern fuel and cigarette lighter fluid are basically the same thing as petroleum base watch rinses. 'Ronson' the watch trader's favorite! Some brands of spray brake cleaner with perchloroethylene and tetrachloroethylene are just about the same thing as 'One Dip' hairspring cleaner. Tetrachloroethylene aka 'dry cleaning fluid' is used by commercial dry cleaners on fine fabrics. Walk into the back room of many high priced watch repair shops and you will see five things: Naptha aka mineral spirits. Coleman camp lantern fuel. Dawn dishwashing detergent for washing dirty clock and watch plates to conserve high priced cleaning fluid. Superglue. Acetone for removing superglue. Is there really any such thing as a 'keeper' replica watch? I have some I can not get rid of...maybe that is what they are.

"Does DW have a page with listings of his cases etc?" DW posted this 9-13-12: "I am not use the website work now . will show watch pics on RWG Many Thanks." Deciphered = no website...probably/maybe/who knows? .

"I happen to think the yuki cases are very good, especially for the price." I had a Yuki 1680 case a couple years ago and it was very well done and had good numbers/letters etc. I have read about glued in case tubes etc since then but maybe they were isolated instances. I used a few DW cases but they need a LOT of work plus another crystal/bezel set. I never took the time to sand the case sides flat like genuine (they come rounded like a DJ) but if anyone was tough enough to do this, a DW case would be pretty good for $159 (price quote a few weeks ago) + a Clark bezel set and crystal. note: I used a Clark bezel kit with Clark 19 crystal and the id of the crystal retaining bezel had to be enlarged a tiny bit. With a GS 19 crystal, the retaining ring was too loose. Did not try a genuine crystal. The numbers/letters are fair, some cases are not numbered/lettered between the lugs. As for later MBK cases...the 1680 and 5513 cases are exactly the same internally and made for an Eta 2836. A rolex 1575 date mvt and genspec dial will fit if you remove the slight step cut in back side of the dial window...this will allow the genspec dial to lay flat and even. A 1520/70 no date mvt with genspec dial does not work because the stem will be too far to the front of the case tube. A 1575 date mvt with all the date works removed and the calendar wheel spacer left in place would work with a no date dial. The numbers/letters are fair to poor as they are shallow and laser etched.

"Seems like just yesterday when you were likely to get barred (speaking empirically) or, at least, issued a formal warning from a moderator for simply bridging the subject of frankens, let alone asking for help in constructing 1." Plus steam rolled, dry cleaned, gutted, nutted and bit-ch slapped. "There's still a big difference between what they consider a franken and what we do. ...imo it will be a long time before they allow talk of replica parts at all." I bet many VRF types have Frankensteins and do not know it or even suspect it...because they bought it from a 'Trusted Dealer' aka Watch Shark. At least I know what I have and did not pay a fortune. "Of course they sell parts to each other to make complete watches, that's kind of the point." Exactly. "I think that's exactly my point. The "inner circle" gets the real deal - 100% genuine original articles. After that, loose parts are gathered and cobbled together for the rest of us." Twenty years ago when I was going to a lot of NAWCC etc shows, all the good stuff got snatched up by 'Insider Dealers' before the shows opened to the Outsiders. It is still that way today...'Insiders' get the good stuff and 'Outsiders' get the crap. Clubby internet forums are the same way. "But my guess, there are a few Phong cases sold regularly there." Guar-an-dam-tee it. "So funny to see a lot of the VRF / VRM members are from our forums..." They stand out because they actually know something.

"They are very well priced with the 4813 version. What is the general opinion on their quality, accurateness etc." I do not have an omega with a DG4813 but have another watch with one and I have worn the watch quite a bit and it has done just fine. It keeps time within a few seconds a day and there is no sweep second hand stutter like on DG2813, NN etc. It is showing 1:35:00 and the correct time is 1:35:27 four days afte setting it to within a couple seconds...not bad at all. The reserve seems to be Ok as it has not run down overnight but I have been fairly active.

"as long as the gen hands have smaller holes then its doable." You can usually go about a tenth of a mm depending on how much material is left. The hands have a collar on them so they will stay tight and not slip or fall to one side...cut all the collar away and the hands will not stay tight and level. Eta 28xx...H 1.50mm M .90mm S .25mm rlx 3035/3135...H 1.4mm M .95mm S .22mm They are pretty close. Tightening hour and minute hands is not nearly as easy as broaching them. The 3035/3135 minute hand will/might need to be closed somehow and I have lightly dimpled the collar in four evenly spaced places around its diameter on the back side and it worked Ok. This is not good practice, especially on expensive hands. If the hands are later models often claimed to be 'solid gold', they will be very fragile.

"I have never seen a Swiss ETA without a stamp." Me neither and I have seen a lot of 24xx, 27xx, 28xx. It looks like an 'unsigned' clone aka 'rawclone'.

"Thanks for your input my friend, I'm no newbie when it comes to reps, get several years experience" I knew that but it did'nt show. I see 5 basic classes of rolex 16610 replicas and I will always go with lower buck watches for beaters same as you did in this case. I always believed a real world beater (genuine or replica) should not cost very much to begin with or to maintain and repair. (When I see TZ/TURF etc types bragging about buying a new or 'like new' rolex etc for a beater I have to roll my eyes because it seems (to me) to be a thinly veiled attempt to show they have $$ to pizz away. I do not have that luxury.) My five categories of 16610 replicas: 1...Canal Street junk (easy to spot and mostly what we see in the real world) 2...pretty good cases/bracelets/dials with Seagull/DG/NN etc movements...many detail mistakes and not too hard to spot from 6 feet away especially with the 21600 second hand stutter (the '6 foot test') 3...high line cases/bracelets/dials with etaclones...hard to spot as a replica from 6 feet away 4...top of the line cases/bracelets/dials with swiss Eta movements...very hard to spot from 6 feet away 5...Frankenstein watches with top of the line TC etc cases/bracelets geuine movements, dials etc...pass for genuine from 6 feet away and up close without a magnifier "I'm getting a TC LV Sub V4or5 eventually" I would get one in a NYC minute if I was not loaded up in vintage stuff. "The LV sub in this thread was originally purchased from Eddie Lee (old timer TD from back in the day)." I never bought anything from Eddie Lee but bought some stuff from River and Paul. Turns out all the Abay/Womart $159 swisseta submariners with the 'fall on the floor' bezels were not so bad after all since Clark's came out with bezel kits and crystals. The Abay/Womart cases are not oem spec all over but will accept oem spec crystals, bezels, case tubes etc. I have a modified Ab/Wo 5514 'comex' with swisseta 2846 on right now. Got skinned by Watchlover David in 1999/2000.

I have done a few 'fixes' on this type of problem and I used a short section of another case tube slipped over the 'too small' case tube and then press the assembly into the case after making sure the hole in the case will accept the case tube combo. Sometimes you have to enlarge the hole in the case and it is a good idea to put Loctite on the tubes. I have had good luck with this repair because with the tube being pressed into the case there is no problem with adhesives having to take up space. Clark's has Ebel/Cartier case tubes with gaskets for $13.50 and the end of the tube that goes into the case is 1.52mm so a spacer would not be too hard to find (Ebel made a lot of Cartier watches). eBay 250745482350 With a large od case tube, finding another case tube to make the spacer might be a problem.

"No marking on movement means its a Asian clone" Fully agree and I have seen a lot of Etas. "I own some clones without any stamp at all." Me too and they are fairly easy to spot as clones. Later examples with crisp Eta marks are harder to identify. Decorated (engine turned) Eta signed Seagull ST21 (2824 etc Etaclone) is easy to spot. First one I saw was over 5 years ago. Good info: http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?43138-Seagull-movements

"Hey bro. It's not gen construction." Genuine construction = more $$ Sad but True. If I was going to make a 'beater' or 'low buck' everyday 16610 type watch...I too would probably go with non genuine construction for the benefits. 'Benefits' = cheapo flat, straight side crystals, MG or sapphire cheapo cases (if you ask around on the forum), some with good dials and doa movements...many are bargains because they are dated and not as nice as later offerings many dials and bezel inserts around for cheapo cases most cheapo cases will accept the Eta 2836 if the case is correctly threaded you can use a high quality/affordable TC tube/crown and dodge $genuine crowns$ etc, etc If someone whups your azz and steals your watch...you ain't out much more than the doctor bill. Downside = some have hard to remove bezels (F520117!!) oem spec inserts may not fit might get busted as a replica out in the wild by a bonafide rolexfreak "Are you kiddin'me? It better be a bonafied relax for what I paid." most genspec stuff will not fit etc, etc The guy that whupped your azz and stole your watch might come back when he finds out it is a replica. If I was going 'Middle Class' I would probably go with an Etaclone in a new watch. If I was going 'Upper Middle Class' I would probably go with a swissEta in a new watch. If I was going 'High Class' I would try to go with a swissEta, 'oem spec' TC etc case/bracelet or equivalent. ...and be on the lookout for the guy who whupped my azz.

I have a few D320840 watches...all except one have swisseta 2836-2, some have 9mm date offset (oem) and some have 10mm date offset. Some have a bit more 'wok' than others and I have cut a couple 'woks' down at a 90 degree angle close to where it comes down to meet the dial to reduce the wok effect with good results. This is Ok as long as there is plenty of dial left behind the reflector (rehaut) and no scratches on the dial's outer surface to show. I do not remember where the D320840 watches came from (6 or 7 years ago) and all had swissetas except the last one had a Seagull decorated (engine turned) 2836 etaclone. The D320840 dials are are not lettered as crisply as 'The Original Noob' F520117 watches that I have. One reason the reflector/rehaut looks so shallow on the F520117 is that the bottom edge comes cut from the factory like the D320840 mentioned above...at least all of mine were cut that way. They are still a little bit shallow overall though. Something else...all my F520117 cases have sharp edges on top of the lugs and all the D320840 lugs are beveled on top like genuine. The last few F520117 watches that I got had plastic oem type bezel covers with blue plastic wrap over the crowns and dark green 'flashing' holograms on the backs. The earlier models did not have the bezel covers or blue plastic wrap. All my D320840 are 13.20mm thick and have straight side sapphire crystals pressed into a plastic gasket in the case. All my F520117 are 12.75mm thick and have oem type (not oem spec) sapphire crystals with a ledge at the top that presses into a plastic gasket in the case. Some of the difference in overall thickness between the two may be from the shallow reflector/rehaut on the F520117. In my experience F520117 and D320840 bracelets will not interchange. Imho...the D320840 looks more realistic 'on the arm' but the F520117 dial is quite a bit better and crown operation and bezel turning is smoother and more precise.

"I'm actually not looking to become a vendor, I have a few posts on RG and RWI, I just wanna create a huge collection, the watches I'm looking at just happen to be the expensive one, all between $400-650 (AP/HBB/Noob Ult Pams/etc) considering how many options there are, $10,000 is only about 2/5 of them all." Besides $10k in replicas being virtually worthless away from replica forums, you are betting on: Q...Will they arrive? A...Probably, most of them anyway. Q...Will they run? A...Most of them...maybe. Q...How long will they run? A...From zero days to a year or three. Q...Who is going to repair the dead ones? A...That's a very good question. Q...What if you need parts? A...There ain't none. Q...What about customs? A...Prison food is getting better but don't forget the 'soap on a rope'. Q...Why did I post this when it is none of my business? A...Because on my first 'big deal' in 2000/2001...I got skinned out of 'only' $4200. It took over 6 months to get a little over half (in number) of what I ordered...in junk watches. Q...How much are they worth today? A...A few hundred bucks for the Eta movements...but they all need c/o. A wise man once said: If you want to end up with $10,000 worth of replica watches. ...start out with $1million.

The main trouble with the 1030 was the rotor axle bearing...if it is Ok along with the autowind assembly bushings, everything else usually holds up all right. Rotor axle bearings are very hard to find.

Buy a used one quarter or one half hp 1725 rpm electric motor...mount it solidly and and rig a handy on/off switch (3450 rpm motor gets metal bracelet parts too hot to handle and melts acrylic crystals). Buy a tapered buff arbor to fit the shaft on the motor. Buy a few 4 to 6 inch 'flexible abrasive' buff wheels of assorted grit about 3/4 to 1 inch wide (they look like Scotch Brite wheels). Buy a few cotton buff wheels and polishing compounds while you are at it to put a shine on polished metal. Buy a 'dedicated' cotton buff wheel and stick of Vigor 'Crystal-Kleer' etc to polish acrylic crystals (keep this buff in a plastic bag when not in use and do not use it for anything other than crystals). Double or triple tape over anything you do not want satin finished...keep an eye on the tape and replace it before it wears through. Practice on ruff stuff with little or no value...crystals, bracelets, cases etc until you get the hang of it. After a little practice you can refinish satin steel bracelets in 10 or 15 minutes, not counting tape and shine time.