automatico

"I find the serifs of the EXPLORER and ROLEX text look a bit strange..." Me too, the coronet, OP blurb and 'ROLEX' appear to be compressed. Compared to pics of genuine 1016 dials...this dial is only close, no cigar. There are not many affordable choices though.

Many will not agree with me but if I had an Asian etaclone that runs Ok, I would let it go until it stops or runs erratically...no service ahead of time. If it only needs c/o when it acts up, I might do it because I can do the work myself for free. If it needs parts...it goes in the parts box. I would not pay to have one serviced because imho they are simply not worth the $$ to c/o or repair because genuine swiss etas and swiss eta powered new and used watches are still plentiful and affordable on eBay etc. When the Asian etaclones do go doa, replace them with a new or properly serviced swiss eta...or start over with a new watch. Buying a new 'swiss eta' watch is a gamble because most are Asian etaclones no matter what the dealer says and if you do get a swiss eta, it may be a referb or needs service/parts. There are not many new swiss etas in replicas since swatch/eta cut the supply down and jacked the prices up. http://www.chronometrie.com/eta2824/eta2824.html

The way I see it (for vintage models anyway)... The better the case and dial...the more the basic watch will be worth. The more unaltered genuine parts in the watch...the more the watch will be worth. The higher genuine watches go...the more a genuine movement, crown etc Frankenstein will be worth (hopefully). As time goes by and the supply of genuine complete watches and parts dries up...the more a genuine movement Frankenstein will be worth. The only thing you can really count on is they will always be worth the current selling prices of the parts. Some free advice from experience... Go easy on artificially ageing vintage watches. You might like the wabi but very few buyers want watches that were beat up on purpose. Wear them to age them. Do not cut dial feet off of good genuine dials...that is what Yuki dials are for.

This so called 'noob factory'...is it supposed to be in China, Taiwan, Thailand or where? I remember a few years ago there was the opinion that many of the best cases and dials came out of Taiwan or Thailand and regular 'cartel' stuff came out of HK/mainland China. One classic was the original F520117 16610 'noobmariner' that was supposed to come from Taiwan or Thailand...the famous MBW/MBK watches come from MBK Center, Bk Thailand. I bought some sapphire crystal no date subs from the infamous 'WLD' 10+ years ago and they arrived from Taiwan iirc and the cases were nearly identical to some of the spring wire bezel 16610 'noobmariners' except the nd models have lug holes. Otoh some of the highest grade cases and dials now available (TC) supposedly come out of China. My guess is as long as it makes $$, the 'noob factory' will be in business no matter where it is. Q...What is the difference between a replica watch case machine in China and one in Taiwan? A...The one in China has wheels on it.

I zoomed the pic up 200% and 300% and going by the movement profile it looks to me like an Asian '21 jewel' movement of some sort. The flex band also means it may be a common cheapo watch with not much way to find the origin or point of sale.

"Each member here has their own reasons for getting into reps." I bought some run of the mill replicas 20+ years ago just to see what was what and turned them into a hobby 10 or 12 years ago when rolex USA started cutting genuine parts off. I stuck with rolex because I was familiar with them and had a few crowns etc. I stay with acrylic crystal no date or slow set vintage model Frankensteins plus 36mm sapphire DJ with swiss Etas. I also kept a few nooby type swisseta F520117 etc 16610 and a few swisseta whs GMT/XII with sapphire crystals...all 'nos collector items' now...Ha! On Frankenstein projects I try to keep the cost down to what it will sell for as parts...no $500 to $1000 cases etc. The most expensive replica I ever bought was a new MBK 1680. The most expensive Frankenstein mess I ever got into was a Phong case/dial 1655 with genuine 1575 converted to GMT with new genuine parts. "The coldest winter I ever spent was a summer in San Francisco." (Attributed to Mark Twain)

"Sometimes it's not the die that is off but the replica case back. Remember, the wrench was made to open a gen Rolex. Your die might fit a gen." I have seen quite a few replica casebacks that were out of spec. Otoh, I bought a set of fake Bergeon case sockets with a 'propeller' handle a while back. It came with an official looking yellow Bergeon box and fit most casebacks. I had a funny feeling about it when a guy had it for sale for $35. On rolex watches you are either tightening the caseback down against a thin rubber gasket or bottoming the caseback out against the case to compress the O ring. In my experience the ball will always get the caseback tight enough as long as the caseback and ball are clean and dry. On gold cases the ball is the best way to go because one slip of a steel case socket can really mess up a gold caseback. Besides, gold case/caseback threads are very easy to strip and the ball will slip where the metal socket will not. I would guess gold case/caseback threads could be stripped with a ball if you really torqued it down though. On pocket watches you can use a rubber glove on screw on bezels and casebacks to avoid breaking a crystal or caving the caseback in with a ball.

"But, because the serial numbers do not match, I do not think a Rolex assembled out of genuine Rolex parts by an owner is the same as a genuine Rolex watch assembled by the Rolex factory (with matching serial numbers)." "I think "disclosure" is key in the re-sale market." Good points. 'Matching numbers' can only be proven to be matching numbers if the watch comes with the genuine original papers or sale receipt. Not many vintage watches still have them and rwc will not give out info on what movement number goes with what case number. A vintage watch recased by rsc with an 'official' rsc paper stating the new case number and movement number will rank higher than the same parts in a Yuki etc case but maybe not enough to justify paying rsc case prices...at this point in time. Otoh, the same parts in a Yuki etc case with case numbers matching a genuine original rolex registration paper might be worth more than a rsc recase watch...who knows? Non chronometer watches like a 5513, AK etc can not have matching numbers because (with a few exceptions) non chronometer movements have no numbers. The watch might come with the original registration paper with the case serial number but the movement being 'original' to the watch will always be a crapshoot. In reality it can be more or less the same for any vintage watch with original papers and matching numbers...the only original parts might be the (extensively laser welded...Ha!) mid case and movement main plate. If I was a 'serious vintage rolex collector;' I would go on condition and not worry much about numbers because there are too many blank papers, hole punchers, and forgers around. 'vintage' = acrylic no dates and slow sets

Here is how I see it... I see any watch made out of 100% genuine and correct parts as a genuine watch. No tutone genuine parts conversions with the wrong reference numbers, no tutone Daytonas made into an all steel watch etc...and no botch jobs on assembly. Botch jobs = lower value no matter what. I see a 90% genuine/10% aftmkt watch as a modified genuine watch with a slightly lower value if the 10% shows...bezel, insert, crown, crystal, clasp etc...but the aftmkt parts must be high quality and correct for the watch. If it is 10% aftmkt parts inside the watch...train wheels, mainspring etc I doubt anyone would know or care about it (especially on vintage watches) except maybe for a few rolex forum/TZ/VRF types. If no one tells the aftmkt internal parts story...it will still go for a 100% genuine watch. Not totally honest of course but my guess is second hand sellers/trade shows etc are full of them. If you send your beat up 1680 to rsc and they stick the movement in a new case with new dial/hands etc it is still 100% genuine but not original so for this reason I can see no difference in a made up 100% genuine parts watch and any rsc watch with new genuine parts installed. The catch is the rsc recase watch will not be worth as much as a real nice original because of the recase serial number. I doubt it will be worth as much as a made up 100% genuine watch of the same type, even with full disclosure. If you stick all the parts from the same beat up 100% genuine 1680 in a Yuki case it is 100% Frankenstein, no way around it and the value plummets...assuming the seller is honest about it (big assumption). Not all Frankensteins are created equal... I have a genuine vintage tritium 1680 dial/movement in a DW case...it is about 50/50 genuine/aftmkt and 100% Frankenstein but not worth as much as the same stuff in a Yuki, Phong etc case. Higher grade aftmkt parts will make some Frankensteins with the same percentage of genuine vs aftmkt parts worth more than others. Workmanship also has a lot to do with selling prices of Frankensteins. Botched aging attempts also devalue many Frankenstein watches.

I have had good luck with TC 7mm tubes and crowns on project watches. Genuine is the way to go if $$ is not tight but the price of good used crowns has really blasted off since rwc killed so many parts accounts.

I have a set of Bergeon screwdrivers that I use a lot and make replacement blades out of the non fluted section of 'high speed steel' metric drill bits of different sizes. Mine has a stand like the top pic in MD2020's post but the screwdrivers have barrel shaped metal ends with color code stripes below the barrel...Bergeon p/n 5970. Also have two oversize USA made 'Moody' brand WW type screwdrivers, 2.5mm and 3.0mm that I use on mainspring barrel screws etc. The bodies are 6.5mm in diameter with a cross hatch pattern so they will not slip with mainspring tension on them. Esslinger is a good outfit to deal with.

Everone knows that since 'Stilty' left town there has been a shortage of precision movement spacers. I tried the 'run of the mill' brass spacers from eBay etc and they usually work Ok but what I really needed were spacers that are a very close fit to the movement on the inside and to the case on the outside. I needed close fitting spacers because I use quite a few dials with dial feet removed on projects with Eta movements and the regular spacers might or might not be a good fit depending on the ID/OD of the spacer and you need a good fit to hold everything in place if there are no dial feet. I looked around and finally found some brass flat washers that are 31.6mm OD x 14.25mm ID x 2.3mm thick so I made a couple spacers out of them to see how they would work. They worked fine. The first one was used for a tutone '16233' DJ with Eta 2836 and I had to cut grooves in the case for case clamps because the case did not have a groove in it to start with. I cut two short grooves inside the case with a cut off wheel mounted on a Dremel tool this time and did not take the time to cut a groove all the way around the inside of the case in the lathe. I used this particular case because it came with a super nice dial and will accept oem crystals and case tubes although it originally came with a Seagull ST6 movement. I finished it with some aftmkt goldtone tudor/Eta hands, aftmkt case tube, aftmkt sapphire crystal/gasket plus genuine 18k fluted bezel and gold crown. I used an all steel jubilee bracelet and replica '555' hoods with soldered tubes because I did not want to use a bracelet with plated center links as the gp wears away or an aftmkt ss with 14k or 18k gold center link jubilee bracelet because they cost so much now. I ground a slot out of the spacer to clear the stem and slightly rounded off the top edge so the case clamps would not be resting on a sharp edge. I used the regular Eta calendar spacer and applied 'dial dots' to the dial where it rests on the brass spacer...this spacer basically clamps the dial to the top of the case so the regular calendar/dial spacer is only a 'spacer' as intended and does not have to be stuck to the dial. The case clamps supply enough tension to keep everything in place and since the spacer is a close fit to the case and movement everything stays in place when the crown is pulled out to setting position etc and there is no dial scuffing or movement because of a loose fitting spacer. On the next spacer I am going to cut a very slight rim around the top of the spacer so the dial fits down into the spacer and can not move at all (there was about .5mm slack between the dial and case). The rim in the spacer will only be about .1mm or .2mm high so the dial will still be pressed against the top of the case as before. Because the dial is about .5mm smaller than the spacer there is a slight possibility the dial could shift a little and cause the hour wheel to bind against the edge of the dial hole...this will also cause the date to get out of whack in the dial window. The slight rim around the spacer will prevent this. This is relatively easy to do IF you have a lathe or know some on who does. The only problem I had was that it took a lot of cuts to enlarge the center hole in the brass washer because my lathe is small (Sherline MM). I bought a step bit and enlarged the center hole in the second spacer in a drill press and it went a lot quicker. I would advise anyone who plans to stick with this hobby in any form to invest in a small lathe because there is simply no way around it when you need one. A 'watchmaker' WW lathe is Ok if you have a three or four jaw chuck but they are really not powerful enough for jobs like this. The Sherline is a good choice at a little over $500 and they have many accessories to go with them. I have a WW lathe but went ahead and bought the Sherline 'WR Smith tool rest' kit to go with it so I can use hand held gravers and WW collets. It uses standard 8mm WW collets same as most WW lathes...my WW lathe is an old Marshall probably made in the 1950s with a leather drive belt and does not have much power. I do not take in any work at all because it is too easy to get covered up with projects.

"Hi guys I take this thread for confirm if I have correct tube too.." This is a later style 'no broach' tube that requires no broaching. There is a splined wrench available to install it or maybe run it in the case with a crown.

In defense of Clark/ST aftmkt bezels... Genuine 1675/1680/5513 crystal retaining rings and rotating bezels are also easy to bend and any mistake, misfit, or misdeed that will bend aftmkt bezels will probably bend genuine parts too. Because of close tolerances and the snap on design, they are not overly rugged to begin with. From experience... More retaining rings and bezels are damaged by removal than installation.

I had the same problem with one of these bezel assemblies and the trouble was the same...the tension washer was a tad too small and was causing the rotating bezel to jam up. I cut the id of the tension washer out a little bit and it worked just fine. Also had one where the tension washer was too thick and had to sand it down. The rotating bezel was too loose without the tension washer. Lay the crystal retaining bezel and rotating bezel on a flat surface (glass etc) and see if they are flat. Not flat = binding. Lessons learned: After mounting the crystal on the case with the crystal retaining bezel installed...try the rotating bezel on for size without the tension washer and see if it works Ok and does not bind. If it works Ok without the tension washer, then binds up with the tension washer installed...the washer is the trouble. If the rotating bezel has a few tight spots but otherwise is Ok, you can put some Simichrome polish etc inside the rotating bezel and on the crystal retaining bezel and usually smooth the action out after a few dozen turns in both directions. Remove the rotating bezel and clean all polishing compound off before final assembly. Push down a little bit on the rotating bezel when turning it back and forth setting it to time etc to prevent wear on the two bezels where they snap together. "It is the last time that I have used the clark assembly. Next time I will try the WSO one." I recently purchased 1680/5513 bezel assemblies from Clark and ST and they were identical, matte finish, dimensions and all. Never tried a WSO assembly. Recently got a 1675 bezel assembly from Clark and it was identical to submariner parts, matte finish and all...except for dimensions and insert. Have an ST 1675 bezel assembly from three years ago and it came with a polished rotating bezel. It fit a genuine 1675 perfectly using the original crystal retaining ring and a genuine 1675 bezel insert snapped in just fine. Did not try the Clark 1675 rotating bezel on the genuine 1675 crystal retaining ring. (I bought the 1675 from the original owner after he knocked the rotating bezel off and quit wearing it. His wife gave it to him 12-25-79...with swiss jubilee bracelet.)

"I looked for a while last night and found several aftermarket smooth and fluted bezels, but couldn't find an aftermarket engine turned bezel. I don't know if they exist." I have never seen one. $20,000!! Insanity.

After looking at the picture, it does not look too bad. See how it looks when it gets to 31, 1, 11 etc. Matter of fact it looks pretty damn good.

Is it out of whack with the window in the dial or magnifier on the crystal? When the problem is centering the date up or down in the window... The date wheel jumper has a screw slot in it that can be adjusted to center the date up or down in the dial window by turning the index button with a screwdriver. Being out of whack right or left in the dial window is usually a defective aftmkt dw or aftmkt dial. Sometimes the dial feet can be bent to one side and this shows by the hour wheel not being center in the hole in the dial. You can look under the hour hand and see if the hour wheel is centered in the dial hole without taking anything apart. Then make sure the dw is properly mounted under the jewel and discs on the calendar spacer and go from there. Before you r/r the hands and dial, let it run a couple days and see if the date flips over Ok. Do not run the hands around to flip the date, just let it run.

The too big id of the bezel is a mystery as modern steel bezels are very hard to stretch because in order to stretch one, the bezel would have to be forced down over a non spec crystal/gasket or something else. Either that or cut it in a lathe. Just wondering...is it concentric inside or out of round? I have never seen an 'official rolex bezel squeezer' in the metal but have seen pictures.

Imho... The only thing that beats a 16610 is a flat dial 16800. The only thing that beats a 16800 is a 1680. The only thing that beats a 1680 is a 5513. The only thing that beats a 5513 is a 5512. The only thing that beats a 5512 is a hammer. "I don't mind the flimsy clasp at all. It's very comfortable and bullet proof and wouldn't trade it for anything." +1 I'm kinda stuck in the past.

http://www.rwgforum.net/topic/159755-engine-turned-bezel/

"First I would skip the clone movement and opt for a 2824 movement." +1

If you plan to press flat mineral glass and sapphire crystals into cases with plastic crystal gaskets and/or rolex types with bezels pressed down over gaskets or crystals...a press with metal cups is better because plastic cups will distort and not press crystals/bezels down flat and level causing chipped mg/saph crystals or scratched sidewalls on acrylic crystals. For pressing casebacks on and light work the plastic cups will work fine. Tapered plastic cups are also good for mounting snap in type acrylic crystals...GS PHD type etc. A press like pictured in post #4 has small posts that do not offer much support to the cups...it is fine for light jobs though.

When broaching an old style case tube, be careful not to cut any more metal from inside the tube than needed for the crown to pass in and out of setting/winding position and set/wind the watch without binding. If you remove too much metal, the tube may break if you bump the crown on a door frame etc. A 'cutting broach' has splines for removing metal. A 'smoothing broach' has no splines, they are smooth for finishing jewel holes etc. No need to smooth broach a case tube unless it has rough spots or needs a very slight bit more clearance. It is good practice of course but very few go to the trouble.

"I think its because we point out the slightest mistakes and then want a different watch 5 times and its a pain for the dealer." "You are paying the money, do whatever you want as long as you are not being an a**." "What I find bizarre about the QC issue is that obviously there is no way of determining whether the photo shown the customer will in fact be the watch that is actually shipped by the dealer. So what is the point of asking forum members what they think of a specific photo?" "The critical eye of members of this forum will always find something wrong with a rep dial. But in fact there can be, and are errors or misalignment issues even with gen watches." All the above are very good points. I am not as particular as many but I would have a problem with something that is not easily fixed...dial blemishes, bad printing, case/bracelet damage, wrong type of clasp, wrong bracelet, etc and this usually shows up on 'QC' photos so they do have a purpose assuming you get the watch in the pictures. As for 'going public' with the 'QC' photos...if it was me, I would take the watch if it looked Ok to me in the 'QC' photos, then post pictures of what I got vs the 'QC' photos if there was a cosmetic problem. Mechanical problems can not be seen and many times may have been caused by handling. The better the watches get, the more perfection is expected. The statement below sums it up and in reality we must accept it whether we want to or not: "IMO buying reps on line is a crap shoot, but then so is buying a gen online." I have rolled craps quite a few times.