automatico

"Did you make up those rules yourself?" Yeah, it is what I have gone by for 40+ years. I left out all the 'before the sale' stuff about shipping loss/damage etc that needs to be agreed on, it is a minefield in itself, especially shipping from one country to another. ...and then there is always the old "I did not get the watch!" (but they really did) etc, etc.

Trader rules... The 'money back' offer rights all wrongs and if it is declined, the buyer now owns an 'as is' watch by their own choice. MB offers often carry a time limit for good reason. If a partial refund is offered by the seller and the buyer accepts it...the buyer now owns an 'as is' watch by their own choice at a lower price. If the buyer ignores the MB offer and moves straight to asking for a partial refund, it is up to the seller to still honor the MB offer and/or negotiate a partial refund. If a partial refund is asked for by the buyer after the MB offer is declined...the buyer now owns the watch by choice and no reply is necessary unless the seller wants to negotiate. Since the watch in question did have a few undisclosed scratches, maybe shipping could be refunded by the seller if the MB offer is accepted (at least one way) but this is always up for debate. If the watch is accurately described and it turns out to be a case of Buyers Remorse "I don't like the watch", and the seller offers to take it back for a full refund...the buyer should eat the shipping both ways or at least one way. Test drives are not free and there is always the danger of shipping damage/loss and parts swapping (very hard to prove). This is why omega puts a dot of red paint between the case and caseback on new watches...to tell if someone has been screwing with the watch when it comes in for warranty work.

"you always make more $ in the vintage parts market. doubt you will make as much with their modern counterparts." True in my experience. Modern watch guys do not have 'fire in the belly' compared to vintage watch guys. Modern watches are basically 'status jewelry' while a vintage 5513/1680/1665/1655 is a 'badge of honor'...a hard to find/expensive 'insider' item. Many sapphire watch owners have never even seen an actual 5513/1680/1665/1655. Many below average to rough 1520/1570/75 powered AK/OPD/DJ etc are bought today for parts and the movement often ends up in a Frankenstein of some sort. A friend went to the watch shows at Daytona a couple weeks ago and he saw a few 'under the table' Frankenstein 5513/1680 and one 1655 by asking sellers about them. There are quite a few Frankenstein 5513/1680 around but genuine rolex 1575GMT powered Frankenstein 1655 are few and far between because GMT parts are near impossible to get...you usually end up parting out a 1675 to make one now. There were a lot of them 15 or 20 years ago made from 1675 with 1655 dial/bezel/hands etc but they were easy to spot because they always had 6mm crowns. The one 1655 he looked at was $4500 and all the 5513/1680 Frankensteins were over $2000. My guess is these watches are intended to be sold to 'insiders' inside the marts and then be resold to 'outsiders' as genuine outside of the marts (at gun shows, car shows, unregulated jewelry/watch shows etc). After they pass through a couple owners the 'history' is long forgotten. He said they appeared to have been 'made to sell', the 1655 being the best of the lot. 'Made to sell' = not up to RWG standards.

"...DW's dial's are far more worth the price!!!" "Better off buying a MBW/mbk watch and throwing the extra money at our great modders. [censored] these phoney scumbags." +1 As for $300, $500, $1000 dials...I can not afford them and can live with a $140 Yuki dial. If it is a little ragged around the luminous dots, everyday scratches on the acrylic crystal will help mask it. My Yuki, IG44 and MBK dials look about as good 'on the arm' as my genuine dials because of the age of the genuine dials. The lettering on the genuine dials looks a little better under the loupe but then you can also see all the age spots, scratches etc from the past 35 or 40 years. When I compare today's 'affordable' dials (Yuki, IG44 etc) to dials I had refinished in the past, the 'affordable' dials are a giant step ahead of the refinished dials for not much more $$ so this is another reason to be happy with them. I bought a Yuki 1016 dial from 'ogladio' a few weeks ago and it is not a whole lot different from my 20/25 year old nos genuine 1016 tritium dial. A rolexpert could probably spot the Yuki dial in a few seconds but I would rather bleach out a Yuki dial than a nos genuine dial wearing it in the sun and $ell the nos dial to a rolexpert while they are still in demand.

1600 Datejust caseback gasket = 29-302-86 a flat cross section gasket, not round like a regular O ring. For generic caseback gaskets, order by the case reference number...1600 etc. "...gen 600 crown but without the gasket, what gasket do I need?" If it is the gasket that goes inside the crown cap, it is the 'crown gasket' pn 29-0600 a flat cross section gasket that is prone to fall away from the crown cap when unscrewed. Silicone grease will help hold it in place but the crown gasket also needs a bit of silicone grease where it seals against the end of the case tube so you put a little on both sides of the gasket...then it sticks to the case tube half the time and falls down half the time... The case tube gasket is 29-6000. Be sure to clean the crown cap along with the threads. I use a pointed wooden toothpick and let it run through the threads a few times from the cap to the outside while turning the crown ccw. If you wash the crown in solvent be sure it is 100% dry before putting it in the watch or cleaning solution may run out of the crown clutch/spring cavity into the movement.

"This is an interesting read. Now I am less inclined to buy gen vintage, that is if I ever was in the market for one in the future." Staying away from vintage rolex is pretty good advice in today's market...Frankensteins, welder jobs, fake parts (cases, bezels, dials etc claimed to be genuine), insane prices, and no parts for many models. The downside to the watches we put together is that after they leave our hands, they may show up for sale as 'all genuine' and someone who can not tell the difference (the vast majority of buyers) will pay the genuine price. Otoh, as time goes by, many more 'genuine' watches will become Frankensteins because of lack of parts. In 25 or 35 years they will probably end up all mixed together anyway (if they are still popular) and the burden of genuine vs replica will be 100% on the buyer because by then all the sellers will have 'clammed up' to protect their investment. "You know a forum is [censored] up when you cant criticise a dealer without the fear of a law suit." What's funny is the guy who has the lawsuit against VRF now was busted for all kinds of small time crimes after the VRF forum members busted him on the forum for making fake punched papers. Evidently the guy was a real crook and now he is going after the 'good guys'. Looks like they screwed with an 'outsider' who was not really a 'VRFer'...a VRF***er maybe. VRF guys sure stick together though...as long as you lick your wounds in private.

"...what you are saying is true. we are paying out the nose for all this expensive supposedly 1:1 spec. genuine spec stuff, and it's not. I have an MBW cased 1680 as well as a DRSD. My watchmaker has worked on both of them, and he told me tonight that both of them were less of a problem than the expensive cases!!" I have exactly one good 'high grade' aftmkt case left that I am happy with...a Phong 1655 case from a couple years ago that I got from another RWG member. Before that I had an early Yuki 1680 case that was fine but I traded it in on the 1655 case. SInce then I have read so many horror stories about the later 'high grade' cases that I have stayed away from them and went with a few DW cases and a couple later MBK cases. The DW cases are Ok for what they cost and need a genspec bezel assembly plus some detailing to make them suitable. The MBK cases look fine and suit me for Eta powered projects although I might modify one a bit to accept a 1570 and dial. I have had good luck with dials from IG44 and Yuki plus the Phong 1655 dial. Standard white MBK 1680 Eta dials are Ok for me too. The gist of all my blather is that I have lowered my expectations/standards and decided to be happy with what I have...because I too believe a $1000 'high grade' case is sometimes just a clumsily modified $50 case.

"And why hasn't anyone who has sold him a watch come out and say he's modified it?" Because these guys stick together like bandits. Most 'in the know' Big Time Dealers will know exactly what is going on behind the scenes but no one will say a word unless one BTD screws over another BTD and then they only tell other BTDs about it. Buyers/outsiders/suckers are on their own...always have been in this game. I knew a few BTDs 20+ years ago when Daytonas, Milgauss, and 1655 were hot. They would do anything to jack up prices even go so far as taking 5 or 6 watches to make one super nice example, then put the rest of them back together in decending order of quality. Then they would sell the 'leftovers' starting with the worst one while the 'cream of the cream' (put together out of the best parts) was always for sale at a very high price making the leftovers look like bargains. Always sell the leftovers starting with the worst one or you might be stuck with it after the better examples are sold. "Do you have any Daytonas for sale?" "Yes, I have two...one is pristine at $25,000 and one is a bit rougher at $19,000." "Do you have any more?" "No, just the two." "I can not afford the one for $25,000 but I will give $17,500 for the other one." "Sold!" The next day he has the pristine watch plus the second worst one for sale. Since then, most of the names have changed but the basics have not. It's funny (to me) that a watch with an extensively laser welded case, artificially aged dial, hands, insert etc (all this being their secret) does not bother these guys at all but a Phong etc cased watch (with full disclosure) drives them crazy...unless they have one for sale with no disclosure unless you spot the case.

"Phong uses a stone tumbler to add wear/patina to his cases. It's a mostly automatic process. His labor involves putting the case into the tumbler barrel along with some type of polishing medium (I would love to know exactly what he is using........so if anyone knows, please let us know) & turning the motor on. Then, he lets the tumbler do its work for several hours to a few days, depending on the amount of 'wear' he wants the case to have. Once the case has the right amount of wear, he takes it out, engraves it (if required, which takes no more than a few minutes) & ships it off. The cases themselves, as has been discussed many times on rwg before, cost no (or very little) more to make than the average replica case, because that is all they are - replica cases. The quality of the steel is the same, the manufacturing technique is the same, even the lack of QC is the same. The only area where they may differ is in how much effort was spent to match the dimensions of the gen they used as a model. And, considering the amount of variability (lack of dimensional consistency) of all of these premium cases, they are likely made in the same factories along side the average Canal Street replicas. Frankly, I doubt it costs more than $10 to make any of these cases. Engraving, which just about any jewelry store can do, a few dollars more. Phong, Natalie & others selling these outrageously priced rep cases are simply pocketing huge profits. Now, I will grant that those who operate in the US or EU are entitled to make a bit more profit due to the legal hazards involved in their business. But selling rep cases & dials for more than $300 is really outrageous. But, as they say, value is what a buyer is willing to pay &, when it comes to watches, especially vintage Rolex watches, neurotic WIS types (like me) are not always playing with a full deck." I agree. I also know this...I have taken a few low priced cases and turned them into first class examples (by my standards anyway) of what I wanted them to be with a few hours of intense machine work. I do not have an engraving machine but do have a miniature lathe and milling machine. This type of 'hands on' work is feasable only when you have the time to do it and do not plan to make any $$ by selling detailed cases etc. For production jobs (and profit) you would need a cad/cam setup of some sort. Take the lowly DW 5513 case for example...they are around $125 and a genuine movement/dial will fit but the DW bezel is not too hot and the case neck etc is not exactly genspec. I tried a few different brands of 25-19 crystals and found the Clark bezel kit and Clark #19 crystal worked Ok on these cases. I had to machine the id of the crystal retaining ring a hair to get it to fit over the Clark 19 just right but when it was finished, it was a pretty good fit. I used a TC tube and crown and did not take the time to sand the case sides down flat like genuine but left them rounded off. All in all it turned out pretty good for about $200 plus a 1520 and aftmkt dial. One thing I can never get used to is making all the special cutter bits and keeping them sharp so they will make proper cuts...it takes a lot of time.

Another one...14 bids, 99.4% Positive feedback. item # 130846589104

Imho...not enough stuff for that much $$ in bad condition...a good $200 gamble though. The plates are probably Ok except for the broken jewels and they are a $20 repair if you have a Seitz etc jewelling tool. The jewels (generic) are available from supply houses. The winding rotor looks Ok but will need a new arbor ($12 or so), you will need access to a lathe and carbide graver to cut the rivet skirt away to keep from enlarging the rotor arbor hole. Driving the arbor out in riveted condition can ruin the rotor because it will make the hole in the rotor too big and the next arbor may not be a proper fit, depending on how big the od of the rivet was. note...a special staking tool is needed to rivet the arbor after installing it in the rotor. The pawls may be stuck by rust in the reverser bodies...no way to tell by pictures. The escape wheel might be Ok. The train wheels may be Ok. The ms barrel looks Ok but the arbor is rusty...needs a new ms for sure ($15 or so). Someone who really needs the parts may pay the asking price.

Working on replicas is harder (for me anyway) than working on common genuine watches because of qc and parts problems. Sometimes you work hard but do not accomplished much. Examples... A couple watch traders owed me a little $$ and could not pay so they gave me a bunch of replica rlx in payment, the majority with DG/NN/ST movements. Most will not run reliably and they are not worth the trouble (to me) to get them running. Besides, you have to sell them to someone with a sense of humor about watches and they are getting hard to find around here. It's just a hassle. Traded into a non running 'noob type' 16610 timehead with swisseta 2836 (for about $50) that some Gomer got fingerprints on the dial trying to get it running (jumped it off?) so I c/o the thing plus a new ms and barrel, so now it is probably worth $150 at the most on a rubber strap. May have to sell the bare movement and call it a day. I bought a 1970s Wittnauer 'Geneve' for $10 (ss 'front loader' case, d/d sqs automatic, 10k fluted bezel, matte black dial) that needed a 'tuneup' (c/o, crystal, crown, strap, springbars), I will have $40 or $50 in it when it is finished and it will sell for $150 and not be back the next day. The exceptions in replica watches (in my experience) have been Frankensteins and swisseta powered models. I have a few Frankos (5512/13, 1680) with rlx 1575/1520, good cases/dials/tubes/crowns etc and they are dead nuts reliable. The catch is...for the same $$ you can buy a 100% genuine 6694, 1500 opd, early DJ etc. Had pretty good luck with swisseta 2824/36/46 powered replicas too, Most of the trouble has been with tubes/crowns/crystals. Have a steel rlx BB replica with Eta 2451 that I have had for 12 or 13 years and after c/o, genspec tube, gen 5.3mm crown, generic crystal etc right after I got it, the watch has never missed a lick. The replica BB is much better than the genuine BB I had a while back (no parts!)...I traded it for an Illinois RR Special (with extremely hard to find Southern RR dial) and a nice Hamilton 992B in nos Hamilton signed steel case. Iirc, the Hamilton had a list price of $160 in 1971 (I bought one new), it came in a small cardboard 'cigarette pack' box. My Frankenstein Rule is the watch needs to actually be worth the cost of the parts after it is finished. Franko Rule score? I'm batting about .333. I have stayed away from rep-o-graphs except for a couple ST19 examples (they were fine) and went so far as to buy a running Wakmann donor watch with a V72 along with a D-tona case of undetermined orgin but never started on it. Lost my nerve. http://horologist.yuku.com/topic/709/Last-Hamilton-992B-Pocket-Watch-Produced-4C-Prefixes

Iirc a dial refinisher or two in the USA used to be able to put the MM logo on dials. You might contact a few and see. Anyone who can apply the MM logo should be able to turn out a respectable dial as there are no letters on the dial, only minute markers. You can use a ratty 5500 or OP dial for a blank. Try International Dial Co in Wilmington Ohio for a start, they used to do automobile etc brand dials.

I know very little about these watches but the first one appears to have the same crown guard shape and 'bullet head' crown as my red 1680 from Paul at Abay 6 or 8 years ago. The second one has the famous stubby crown guards. The first one would need cg shaping and another crown (possibly a crown/tube combo). The stubby cg watch would need a thinner or recessed crown to make it look better but not many outside this buncha loons or genwatch freaks will notice the flaws on either one. The dials are Ok for 'store bought' dials. Loons? I represent that remark! All in all these watches are pretty good but Frankenstien watches have set 'store bought' watches back quite a few steps and they get less respect than they used to. I have a set of Paul/Abay 5514, SD, and 1680...all with the same cg and crowns as watch number one. Every time I looked at one I would zero in on the cg and crown, the dial flaws etc never bothered me much. I finally reshaped the cg on the 5514 and installed an oem spec case tube and used genuine crown and it looks a lot better. My guess is the top watch is the same mid case as the Paul/Abay watch but with better bezel setups and bracelets with hollow center links and 'through and through' screws (mine had removable links that were solid where the link screw ends should show through). If you have not already...go back through the rolex section and read the pros and cons of these watches. They have been discussed (and cussed) many times.

"Have the same watch....same issue, keep bending spring bars....Is there an option for original equipment tag heuer bars that are stronger?? I have a gen Tag heuer watch and still haven't been through a the original set of spring bars, and i have given that watch hell....So what options do we have??" Make sure the replacement springbars are stainless steel, not plated brass like supplied in a lot of replicas. If it is 20mm between lugs...one cheap fix is to use late model swiss made generic springbars for late model blind lug hole submariners...they are strong enough to last. There is always a catch...if the strap is loose between the lugs or made of soft rubber, the springbars can pop out once in a while because the strap can get pulled over to one side and lever the springbar out when it straightens up. This can happen when the watch is worn tight and shoved/pulled up or down on the wrist with enough force to pull the springbar out of the hole in a lug. This is one very good reason to have holes all the way through dive watch lugs and springbars that 'zero out' between the lugs like vintage submariners, GMT, Exp II, 1016 etc. I have a few genuine T/H and they all have 20mm lug spaces and use single shoulder springbars with 1.8mm center tubes. The only difference from a standard single or double shoulder generic 1.8mm springbar is the tips are a little bit longer where they fit into the lug holes. They must be pretty tough as one of the watches is an old black coated T/H 1000 with half of the black finish worn off the bracelet and case with the MG crystal scratched like an old Coke bottle. Knowing the guy I got it from, I doubt it has ever seen the inside of a repair shop except for batt changes now and then...the springbars were Ok though. O/T... I felt sorry for the T/H 1000 and recently took it apart and bead blasted the case along with a fresh jubilee type steel bracelet, installed a new crystal, springbars/gaskets and it looks good again. I used generic springbars made for a late model blind lug hole DJ. I taped over the goldtone rotating bezel and used a dummy crown while blasting the case so the bezel and crown are still goldtone along with the hands and wrting on the dial. It sorta has a 'stealth' appearance now.

"are the LEC supposed to line up? Mine just arrived and I asked if he could do a quick QC before, but still mines off to the left" I have seen a few that were very close and a few that were not so close, it's the luck of the draw. The problem is because of where the magnifier is cemented on the crystal in relation to the lec. If the magnifier is off a little (+/- a few degrees from 90 degrees) in relation to the lec, the lec will be out of whack because the magnifier has to be centered over the date. I have read a few complaints on forums about genuine rlx watches with this same problem...lec off a minute or two.

"Oh... If only these GS crystals could be easily purchased from somewhere!" I can send you a few if it would help.

"Rolex is not a 'real' Rolex if it has been modded. So that means.." A...What if the Gomer putting 'The Watch' together in 'The Factory' puts a screw (The Original Screw!) in a watch and then scratches the head of the screw while tightening it, removes 'The Screw', discards it, and reaches into a cup of screws and gets another one and installs it. The 'Original Screw!' has been replaced by a 'Screw! Not Original To The Watch' aka 'screw-modification'. By their own rules, "It's a Fake!" before it leaves The Factory. B...Once the back is opened and the 'Hallowed Swiss Alps Air' escapes, then is replaced by 'foreign air' (aka 'air-modified')...this means "It's a Fake!" from that point on. C...Same goes for fingerprints...one 'foreign fingerprint' (non swiss relaxy factory) and it has been 'fingerprint-modified'. So...from then on, "It's a Fake!" D...How about environment...since they are 'Born and Bred' in 'The Swiss Factory!', any change of location renders them 'modified by enviromental forces'. "It's a Fake!" from the second it left the factory. Therefore...they are All Fakes! I can live with that.

"Certainly a better case would be a good deal- WM9, TW Best, or TC would do as well as a new insert." There is probably quite a few noob F520117 cases around with doa DG/NN movements that are affordable. "You need to measure the dial also- if it's too big you might need a new dial also." The F520117 dial is 28.0mm, the dial window 27.0 and the dial seat will accept a dial up to 28.4mm. There is a slight step that limits the dial to 28.4mm unless you cut it away or mount the dial over the step. The F520117 came with a good case tube/crown combo, crystal/crystal gasket, and caseback gasket...plus metal movement spacer and case clamps with screws. They were OK for everyday wear and would not fog up after washing hands or getting in the rain. Some owners got by swimming and shallow diving with them.

From "Crown info" above: Late 7.0mm submariner case tubes are installed using the same tool as late 6.0mm no broach case tubes.

"I would be very wary of 'NOS' vintage Rolex parts, especially, when they are coming out of Asia. Regardless of who the seller is." +1 Otoh here is an interesting, claimed to be nos part on eBay...item number 281057418215. (I did not know the spring was brass, I figured it was steel)

I have cut a few dial seats out on vintage rlx type cases in a lathe by clamping on the case neck (where the crystal goes on)...this works fine as long as the case neck and dial seat are concentric. If they are not concentric, you will have to know whether to use the case neck for reference or the dial seat (it is almost always the dial seat that is out of whack). If you need to use the dial seat as the centering reference for some reason...you will have to center it in a four jaw chuck and this takes time. I mount a used crystal on the case neck without a retaining ring, then clamp the lathe jaws over the crystal to prevent scratching the case neck. So far they all have worked Ok. A week or two ago I cut a little bit off the lower edge of the reflector (rehaut) on a '16610' F437091 case to reduce the 'wok effect' by clamping the case in the lathe using the caseback thread area. This works Ok too but you can not remove much metal or the dial may show scratches made by the dial seat (if the dial has been used) or fall through the window if you remove too much metal. Smoothing the dial seat with 600/1000 sandpaper helps a lot. You can not remove much metal at all on the lower edge of the reflector on wokky cases with lettering around the inside of the reflector. I stay away from modern ceramic insert models because they are too hard to find parts for (bez inserts etc) and they have reflector ring lettering, not to mention the overly complicated clasp. I do not mind vintage models at all (1016, 5513, 1680 etc). The 16610 etc are sometimes harder to work with depending on bezel construction and crystal mounting method. Oem spec is always better. (I do not take in any outside work at all)

Seeing an Eta 2840 for sale in the parts section reminded me of a famous collector Swatch from the 1990s with this movement: http://horologium.com.au/2011/09/02/swatchs-tresor-magique/ I never saw a replica Swatch but this one would have been a good candidate. My Swatch collection = three nos Swatch 'Cupidus' watches from 1992 that cost $35 each. Now they are probably worth about $15 each.

"He sent them somewhere here in the US to see about having them produced but it seems the links have a coronet/hallmark somewhere on them and the Co. said they wouldn't do it. I'm not exactly sure where he stands on production of the bracelets at the moment but I do know he's molding/machining the 14k and 18k bezel rings himself." Not meaning to be a downer but I am guessing just the cost of 18k gold for the center links will add up to $500 to $700 for 12 or 13 hollow center links at today's crazy prices ($1650 troz). You will also need two 18k hood strips and a way to solder the strips to the hoods, or a set of tt hoods. I had a 12 link genuine GMT oyster converted to ss/14k in 1994 by MSB Watches in Miami and it cost $550 plus $90 for one complete additional link to make 13 links. I talked to a few people who did tt conversions back then and they used special order 14k or 18k tubing to make the links and formed them to shape with a die press after cutting to size. The center links had to be within a few hundredths of a mm so the link would not bind or be too loose...this is not easy to do. You will also need a way to disassemble and press the links back together without leaving a mark. At this time (1994), an Italian made high grade ss/14k unsigned 20mm oyster bracelet was around $400 to $450 iirc...today they are around $1000. I have done quite a bit of 'lost wax' gold casting and it would be extremely difficult to cast links (using this method) with enough precision to work without making them oversize to begin with and then machining each one to size. When making rubber molds for shooting the wax, there is probably 5% to 10% shrinkage in the rubber mold so the wax model will be undersize to start with even when using high grade 'pink' casting rubber. If the die casting method is used, the parts will come out with much more precision but most smaller gold casters do not use this method. Cast gold pieces are also more brittle than forged/die struck gold pieces. Lost wax gold casting...

Been looking for a calendar spacer for a rlx 1575GMT movement (pn 7965) for two years to finish a project. Have everything but this one part. No Parts For You!