automatico

"This Rolex Sub was bought circa 1985-86 on Canal St in NYC." It has a Seagull ST16 in it and being from the mid 1980s, it means the ST16 has been around longer than I thought. I have a steel DJ with ST16 from late 1990s/early 2000 from a dealer called 'Cal' (it was $55). Up until now, the DJ was the oldest ST16 I had seen.

"Who is Paul?" 'Paul' = aBay, WO Mart, PAM111. I do not know if the current 'Paul' is the original Paul or not.

"So my question is, where the hell is everyone? And why?" I was on the old RWCC back when it was hot (relatively speaking), and it went away. I was on TRC from the beginning (member 43), it rocked, then it went away. Now I'm on here and... I hope it's not me. I think there is an ebb and flow to forums and this one is currently in an ebb. I agree it slows traffic down to have to pay to trade but that's the way it is for now. I paid RWG a couple years ago and would pay again but I have closed out my credit cards etc because of attempted identity theft and credit card hijacking so I no longer trust anything on the internet involving account numbers. My problems had nothing to do with RWG. I still get calls from an idiot screaming and demanding $6000 owed on some sort of Pontiac I never paid for...and never owned. I told him the check was in the mail and he kept calling. Last time he called, I told him to get off his fat azz and come and get it. Now I'm afraid to answer the door.

"Asia trash?" Buncha VRF snobs. My watch is insulted. ...along with my TV, toaster, electric hedge trimmer, sunglasses, shoes, camera, flyswatter...

Great writeup! I have a low mileage 1930s 992 in a gold filled case similar to yours. I went to the old Hamilton factory in Lancaster PA a few years ago...it was a condo at the time (Hamilton Arms), but still in good condition. Sad but at least it is still standing.

"I will only purchase the movement ring from Stilty.. Support our fellow members." Me too. I feel the same way. Take the 'Rolex Sea-Dweller 1665 replacement helium escape valve' for instance...the one Y*** sells for $100. If someone needed one, maybe a member would be willing to make one for less and benefit the buyer and seller. Besides...the hardest part is machining the hole, gasket seat, and spring seat in the case and this is not included. I am an admitted cheapskate and have a problem with the $100 price tag for the valve because I bought a couple vintage style 'COMEX' no date watches from 'Paul' with genuine Eta movements for $159 each a few years back, both with working relief valves. I encourage anyone who is serious about this hobby (or any hobby dealing with small expensive lathe made parts), to invest in a small lathe and learn how to make many of these special parts. Sherline is my choice but many brands are available. http://www.sherline.com/lathes.htm

"What do you think?" Cool! Wear it! I like watches with scruffy dials because I can wear them in the hot summer sun with no worries...the damage has already been done. No more turning my wrist down to shade the dial when in direct sunlight. (am I the only Nut who does this?) Watches with pristine gennywine dials make my head hurt. If dials and cases sold for deuces and aces...we would all be sportin' new faces.

This post is about things to look for with aftermaket dials in general and aft/mkt dials made for rolex in particular. A friend brought a rolex 5500 air king to me to change the dial and hands over to an 'explorer' style aft/mkt dial and hand set...a late 1970s/early 1980s model with a 26 jewel 1520 hack movement. This should be a one hour +/- job if everything goes well counting new case tube/caseback gaskets and case washing with soap and water, not counting a pressure test. It turned out to be a three hour job with all the fitting work. The good: 1...The dial feet were mounted correctly and the dial lined up fine on the plate. 2...The dial was .4mm thick, same as genuine. 3...The genuine dial was 27.0mm in diameter, the 'explorer' dial was 27.1mm in diameter but it fit with no problems. 4...The dial was indexed properly (12 and 3 marker locations were correct after being installed). 5...The dial paint and letters were fine, not much glow but I did not expect much. 6...The hands were a close fit and a little broaching was needed...this is not uncommon. The defects: 1...The dial feet were 1.0mm in diameter where genuine dial feet are .9mm in diameter. Because the dial feet would not fit in the holes in the movement plate, the dial would not lay down flat on the movement. 2...The 'explorer' dial feet were 2.7mm long where the genuine dial feet were 2.2mm long. Because the dial feet were too long, the dial will not seat (lay down flat) on the plate, even after each dial foot diameter has been reduced enough for the feet to go into the holes in the plate. The problems: 1...The dial will not push down on the movement because the dial feet are too big in diameter. 2...After the dial foot diameter is reduced to .9mm, the dial feet are too long and bottom out on the wheel train bridges. What will this do? 1...The dial will be bent while forcing it down because the dial feet are too big in diameter. 2...If you do manage to push the dial down flat on the movement, the dial will be very hard to remove and can be bent when trying to remove it. 3...After the dial foot diameter is reduced to .9mm, the dial will be bent when the movement is forced down into the case. This will cause dimples to appear on the front of the dial above the dial feet. The fix: 1...I glued strips of 600 grit sandpaper to a wood Popsicle stick and used it to sand the diameter of the dial feet down to .9mm, being careful to sand the dial feet evenly and flush with the dial surface. 2...I shortened the dial feet to 2.2mm by grinding them down on a diamond wheel mounted on a battery powered Dremel tool. Conclusions: 1...The dial was fine but it needed a little modification, not unusual for aft/mkt parts. 2...The overall quality was very good, better than any refinished dial on a genuine dial plate that I have seen. Where did the dial come from? Yuki. In my opinion, it is no fault of Yuki as they only buy them for resale, I doubt they make them. The next one may fit just fine. My guess is they used dial foot blanks for a date model 1575. Genuine 1575 date dial feet are 3.0mm long +/-. All in all, I believe the dials are well worth the price and a little 'TLC' is not a problem. The problem is if someone forces the dial down on the movement, then forces it down in the case. Btw, I have never purchased anything from Yuki but I do have a few steel buckles that came from Yuki and they are just fine.

Great review and a few 'genuine' words of wisdom. "And IF its really an ETA it

"I also would like the Dealers to be honest when they advertise their watches. The question is why they do use metal instead of rubies. As far as I know the rubies they use nowadays are synthetic and very cheap to produce." Jewels are cheap and as long as they press metal bushing in the plates in place of jewels, there is probably very little actual cost difference. If they start installing pivots in bare holes bored in the plates, they have reached the bottom. Remember the rolex 1520 'tariff dodger' movements? They used bushings in the autowind assembly instead of jewels to dodge a very small USA tax on imported movements with over 17 jewels. They worked all right for a while, then the bushings wore out. You see a lot of them in air kings and 5513 submariners with the reversers and intermediate wheels jammed up because the bushings are worn out. Regular service will keep them running for a long time but most owners did not have their watch serviced until it stopped running and by then the bushings may be worn out of round, allowing the wheels to bind. Many companies use jewel count for prestige...the more jewels, the 'better' the movement. True up to the point of useless cap jewels on every pivot and jewels mounted on winding rotor weights, movement spacers etc. I have a 100 jewel Waltham wristwatch from the 1960s...with 17 working jewels. All the others are there but they just ride around on the winding rotor and spacer. The autowind assembly has bushings. "I worked in the computer industry and once was told by a main board engineer that the first design was one of the best. Later designs were stripped en they took as much as possible part of the beards because each of the removed coils, resistors or conductors could bring extra profits as hundred thousands of boards where produced. Some revisions were faulty or unstable because they took of too much components." Imho, Seiko is a prime example of this in the watch industry. Their quartz movements from the late 1970s and 1980s were great...metal wheels and plates with jewels. You could take them apart to repair them and I have a few from the early 1980s still running strong. Now they are plastic...plates and many of the wheels. They run a few years then go DOA...no better than a $29 Wal-Mart special. Many of the old 'metal with jewels' quartz watches are still around but parts are n/a...forcing owners to buy a 'new and improved' model. The problem with replicas will always be that there are no standards or anything to be governed by. If they can get by with a $13 movement instead of a $15 movement, they will go with the $13 movement. As for this new chronograph movement...wait and see if Alpha etc uses the low jewel model or a higher jewel model in order to see if a higher jewel version is available. I noticed swatch has a new eta chronograph movement with just a few jewels too. Maybe this is the beginning of a new trend of cheapness. It can always get worse... I have an old Bradley 'chronostop' pin lever one jewel chronograph...maybe this type of junk is slowly making a comeback.

Two guys I know got caught in a sting in Georgia (USA) last summer with 600 (six hundred!) high grade fake designer handbags. The authorities confiscated all the handbags, their two vehicles, and put both of the guys in jail over the Labor Day weekend. They posted bail after the holiday weekend and came home, both vehicles were left behind. They got their vehicles back a few weeks later because they both owed more $$ on them than they were worth and they were basically property of the finance outfits so the cops did not want them. A court date was set and they both had lawyers to represent them. A month or two later out of the blue, all charges were dropped. Why? All the evidence (600 handbags!!) had 'disappeared' from the evidence room without a trace. (it took a long wheelbase van and a covered 'Doolie' pickup truck to haul them so they would be very hard to 'misplace') Another guy I know had 3000 pirated videos of current movies. A fellow approached him and said he wanted to buy a few movies. The guy bought 2 or 3 movies and left. He came back about 45 minutes later with a Deputy Sheriff. He presented some papers claiming he was a representative for some movie copyright holders etc and took all 3000 movies. The Deputy Sheriff helped carry them out. The DS did not instruct the video guy to come with them so the video guy stayed behind. The video guy never heard anything else about it so about a month later he went to the Courthouse and talked to the same DS about it. The DS said this was his first trademark/copyright case and the other guy was basically in charge when the raid took place. The movies never made it to the Courthouse or evidence room. Matter of fact, the 'inspector' never showed up at the police station or Courthouse after the raid. He had been instructed to follow the DS to the Courthouse. It turned out the 'inspector' was a FAKE! inspector and just stole the movies. This was his third or fourth robbery in the area. Now there is a 'wanted poster' with a picture of the fake inspector on the wall of the video store. A friend of mine was at the local flea market selling fake Oakley sunglasses about 5 years ago. A guy came by and bought a pair of the 'fakeOs' for $10. He returned in a little while with a warrant and a Deputy Sheriff. He said "We can do this the easy way or the hard way." My friend asked "What is the easy way?" The inspector said "You give me all the fake Oakleys and we go see the Judge". Then he asked "What is the hard way?" The inspector said "I will get a search warrant and we will turn this place upside down then we will go to your house and turn it upside down." He said "Let's do it the easy way." The inspector said "How many pairs do you have?" My friend said "Fifty three dozen plus what is on the table." (630+) They loaded them all up and my friend rode in the police car and met with the Judge and the inspector. He posted bail and they set a court date. When the court date rolled around, he went to court hoping the inspector would not appear. He was there, front and center. The Judge let both sides tell their story then asked the inspector what he wanted in the way of 'restitution'. The inspectod said "At least $100 for each pair of sunglasses." ($100 x 53 x 12 = $63600.00) My friend said he nearly passed out. The Judge asked the inspector "Are you going to take the sunglasses?" The inspector said "Yes." The Judge said "Well that's all you are getting because if anyone gets any money from this guy it is going to be the Court." He fined him $3000 plus court cost and 5 years probation. His time was up last summer. (the conversations are accurate but not exact)

USA...a couple years ago I ordered some omega parts and the parts lady told me swatch/eta/omega had raised prices, some as much as 300% in the past year. TAG has always been a horse's azz in the USA and their 'official' parts and service outfit is called 'Protime'...Ha! I needed a new crown and the snooty hag I talked to on the phone told me "You may not be qualified to work on our fine swiss timepieces and we will not sell parts to you unless you send us a letter from an authorized TAG dealer with their letterhead telling us you work on watches for them." I said if she was talking about TAG, the watch company started by a former arms dealer that put watches together with lowest bidder parts from all over the world with $15 eta movements...I have to work on them because I get a lot of them in used bicycle and lawnmower trades. She went off like a rocket. Here is the story behind why I needed a crown: A friend bought a nib no papers steel TAG automatic chronograph on eBay. He forgot to scew the crown down and snagged it on a shelf in the auto parts store where he worked and pulled the crown and stem out, out, and awaaay. He called Protime and asked if they would sell him a crown. They told him to send the watch to them. He sent it. They called and told him it would be over $500 to repair the watch because "The movement was very dirty and the watch needed a complete overhaul". The watch was about 3 weeks from being nib and a current model. He told them it was new and they were full of $#!? and to send it back. He brought it to me. I got a new crown from a local AD...for 60 dollars! Regular price is about $25. I can get TAG crowns, case tubes, crystals etc from another USA supplier so it no longer matters if TAG/Protime will not sell parts. I bought a few genuine TAG watches in the recent past...tutone WK1120 on an even trade for a $100 Citizen, like new steel WN1111 for $150, nib steel lady TAG diver for $100, 3 goldtone TAG lady divers for $25 each (they need a little work), and an older model black over steel diver for $75. We do not think much of them around here and they go cheap. The swiss brands' refusal to sell oem parts to the repair trade is what started me on replicas...that and the fact that I would work on replicas when no one else in this area would. I look at watches like service in a restaurant: No tea. No tip. No parts. No buy.

The PP Nautilus is an attempt at a sporty watch, much like the APRO, both known to be fragile in use and pricey to maintain. Both designed by Gerald Genta. http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2009/3/8/first-generation-patek-philippe-nautilus-the-ultimate-sport.html Imho, they are 'Country Club watches' for dinner and dancing. Stay off the tennis court, golf course, handball court, and out of the pool. They might make it through a couple hard sneezes and a dash through light rain but that's about it...imho. Eta replicas are probably a lot tougher (except for the dash in the rain). Early Nautilus had a LeCoultre movement. http://www.timezone.com/library/horologium/horologium631686780396906210 Later models claim to have an inhouse movement. Btw, I have owned an APRO and a few PP, no Nautilus. I hate to say it (not really) but I do not take PP, AP, JLC, etc seriously. I guess I'm not a fragile watch guy.

I am glad it went to an owner who appreciates it. Hang on to it. I like old DJs and still have a few...owned one (1603), for 38 years. If DJs were worth what submariners are worth...I would be rich!

"Strange that one spring bar head is visible." Some lug holes are not drilled straight across the lugs but are drilled at an angle from under the opposite lug...this will cause the springbar pins to bind in the hole. You can stick a drill bit etc in the hole from the outside to tell if the holes are drilled straight or at an angle. After drilling one side, see if the drill bit lines up with the hole on the opposite lug, sometimes you can drill through both lugs in one shot. If the holes are drilled at an angle, you might have to drill the lug holes slightly oversize or polish the springbar pins down a little with Cratex etc. Be careful because oversize lug holes look bad and can make the lugs too thin around the holes. Also be careful not to taper the holes on the outside of the lugs. When you see a watch with tapered lug holes or a round edge case (DJ etc) with flat spots around the lug holes, it was usually caused by too much polishing around the holes.

KBH- "unfortunately the differences between a 2813 and a 4813 are not readily visible. Only a few small interior parts differ. At least that's what I learned on RWG" LOL "I was confused about Asia 21j .. now I know there are 2 kinds, the 2813 and the 4813 .. one's 21k and one's 28k .. and they are externally identical to the naked eye." If you compare a 28000 beat 4813 to a 21600 beat 2813, you will notice the 4813 balance wheel is quite a bit smaller than the balance wheel on the 2813. After you look at a 4813 for a few minutes and study the balance wheel size in relation to the surrounding parts...it will be easy to tell a 4813 from a 2813. Something else: The 2813 and 4813 both have tension springs on the sweep second pivot to prevent ss hand 'stutter' (skipping). When the tension spring is not supplying enough tension...it allows the ss hand to stutter, causing ss hand motion of a 28000 beat 4813 to look like a 21600 beat 2813 at first glance. One easy (but not totally foolproof) way to tell if the tension spring is too loose is to hold the watch with 12 straight up and 6 straight down and see if the ss hand stutters when the long (heavier) end of the ss hand moves downhill between 12 and 6 and evens out going uphill between 6 and 12.

Me too! My two cents: Comparison of one of my genuine rolex watches to a replica: Genuine 16013 (cal 3035) between April 2008 and July 2008...broken balance staff replaced along with new mainspring, mvt cleaning, new case tube, crown, crystal, case gasket, and springbars (typical rolex tune-up). My cost was about $125. The same friendly 'authorized rolex repair' cost would probably have been around $1000 because authorized repair outfits do not (or can not) install a balance staff and poise a balance (they are parts changers), so I would have had to buy a 'balance complete' (p/n 5019) for $400+/-. I keep a stash of genuine rolex parts to keep these things running as I still have a few genuine rolex watches. Cost for spare parts about $10k (all from legit sources at dealer cost). I admit to being a little bit rough on this one but you know what they say: "Your rolex will take anything your arm will take." Sold the damn thing July 2008. Good riddance! September 2009...it's back! Another broken balance staff replaced and hairspring untangled. Rotor axle is getting wobbly. It looked 10 years older than when it left. The guy said it was the best rolex he ever had. Imagine what the rest of them must have been like. "Frankenstein" tutone rolex '16233' DJ with Eta 2836-2: rep case, oem spec pink sapphire crystal, aftmkt case tube, genuine crown, 18k (genuine) 16234 fluted bezel, aft mkt steel and gold jubilee. No parts needed to date. Parts stash = nothing ($0) because I anticipate no trouble. The replica has lived a harder life than the genuine watch. It will be on my arm today, working on a bathroom remodeling job.

"The case movement clamp screw is wedged between the reverser wheels in the autowind mechanism." That is the screw that holds the reversers in place. Turn it where the sharp edge goes between the reverser wheels and it holds the reversers to their posts...turn the sharp edge away from the wheels and the reversers come off the post.

Have it cleaned and another autowind assembly (because of the brass showing), better screws etc, and use the same winding rotor to make it look good again. It probably looks a lot worse than it is. Very good movement...Eta 2451 etc.

One of my favorites (although not listed), is the modern Explorer I. They are pretty good now and do not have the 'tells' that submariners etc have such as crown guards, 'rehaut' etc. Since most people do not even know what an Explorer I is, you will rarely get busted wearing one. Something else...no date and no chronograph = no trouble (imho). As for 'feel'...I can not usually tell much difference in genuine and replica. I buzz new bracelets in an L&R ultrasonic with Formula 409, Simple Green etc for 20 or 25 minutes and let the hf vibrations clean the dirt and metal shavings out of the bracelet. This also smoothes out some of the rough edges inside the links and gives the bracelet a smoother feel. The cleaning mix usually needs to be changed after 6 or 8 bracelets because of all the dirt and shavings.

"I've never hand wound an Asia 21j 28k movement (4813) so I cant comment." Everything is the same except the balance assembly and a few wheels. The winding parts are all the same and have the same feel. They are fairly easy to spot when the sweep second hand motion is compared to a regular 21600 beat '21 jewel' movement. Exception: The 28800 beat '21 jewel' movements have a leaf spring damper on the sweep second pinion just like the regular 21600 and if it is not supplying enough tension, it can stutter and make it hard to tell if it is 21600 or 28800 beats per second. Seems like nothing is easy.

"have you tried to fit the hands on, also?" rolex 1530/1560/1570 etc hands: hour...120 minute...80 second...20 rolex 3035/3135: 140 95 22 Eta 2801/2824/36/46 etc: 150 90 25 late tudor Eta uses same hands as Eta 2824 etc early tudor Eta 2451 etc: 150 90 22 Eta 2671 (lady size) etc: 120 70 20 So... I doubt you can broach rolex 1530/1570 hour hands enough to fit the Eta hour wheel but the other two could be fitted with a little work. You might turn the Eta hour wheel hub down a little and broach the hour hand hole for the rest. I have not tried it though.

"I wonder whether more argon welding on that soft spot will help our clasps... " I have a friend who laser welds jewelry and I asked him about this exact repair last week because I traded into a DSSD and knew about the shoddy clasp design. He looked at it and said he had never repaired anything in stainless but might try if it falls apart. We agreed it looks like a sheeit design job on the bracelet. He does good work as I had a vintage 14k square Benrus that some Bozo wore with a gold plated steel Twist-O-Flex bracelet and it chewed up two lugs. He repaired them using the laser and you can not tell the lugs have been repaired. What is 'cool' is that he did it with the movement and acrylic crystal still in the case! The case does not get hot...only the spot where the laser is directed on the lug.

Springbar note... High quality swiss made aft/mkt springbars are virtually identical to genuine for $2 or $3 each. I have both and always mark the genuine parts with a magic marker so I can tell them apart if they get mixed up by accident. Mine came from Startime Supply in Houston TX. http://store.startimesupply.com/merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=1&Category_Code=1D_Rolex_SBars_Asst

They are genuine and JSN485 is a good guy to deal with.