freddy333

It's also not cheap when you lose little parts left and right as they fly off your desk.

Not to sound flippant, but that's where experience comes in.

Just fyi: Here's the same set for a few dollars less:

http://www.jewelerssupplies.com/Case-Tube-Tap-Set-Rolex.html

So, do you feel comfortable servicing say a 2836 movement after this coarse?

As stated in the TZ class outline, the classes aren't really sufficient (or designed) to teach real-world diagnostics & repair skills. The classes provide you with a basic understanding of the components and workings of a watch (the Level 2 course adds a few complications and adds basic lubrication to the mix).

Thanks and the photos really don't do it justice. This really outta be done routinely whenever CGs and lugs are modded. Not sure why it hasn't been?

It is said that God is in the details. And nowhere is that truer than when comparing a rep watch to its genuine counterpart. A quick perusal of vintage gen Sea Dwellers and COMEXs and you will see that the early HE valves that were fitted into these rare watches differ in appearance from the round, shiny button things rep makers generally use to mimic them. Specifically, the face of the gen valve, where it sits adjacent to the highly polished casing material that surrounds it, is flat-faced (as opposed to slightly convex on reps), a bit darker and definitely not polished.

If, like me, your ultimate goal is to wind up with a watch whose appearance is a near-perfect analogue of the genuine article, then you will need to mod the HE valve to more accurately mirror the appearance of the original.

Fortunately, not only is this one of the simplest mods to execute (as long as you have mastered the art of movement extraction), but, amazingly (as I found out after completing the first one), it also results in a rep that is orders of magnitude closer to looking like 'the real thing'. Anyway, enough with the blabbering and on to the mod.

Here is the step-by-step procedure (note: it is alot easier to do than to write):

1. Open the case and remove the movement (as Ziggy and others have already penned wonderfully comprehensive tutorials on this process, I will take that as read).

2. Using a small flathead screwdriver, slide the backing plate over the 'valve' plug until the large circular cut-out in the plate is located directly over the head of the valve. The backing plate should then slide off (if it has not already fallen off by itself). The valve, which is just a small blocking pin with a 'T' head, can be removed with tweezers (it may just fall out, but in each of the two watches I have modded so far, the pins were held in (gently) by all the muck that had collected around the head on the outside of the case -- the pin required only gentle prodding with tweezers to remove).

3. Beginning with 100 grit sandpaper, hold the valve pin between thumb and forefinger, perpendicular to the surface, and grind the rounded head flat. Once flat, use 200 and then (only briefly) 400 grit to smooth out the surface to a roughly brushed appearance. I purposely left it a bit rougher than the other brushed surfaces on the case.

4. Clean the pin and hole thoroughly and slide the pin back into the hole in the case.

5. Reinstall the backing plate over the end of the pin, clean the case and reassemble.

Here are before and after shots (the valve looks a bit lighter in color here because the light source was directly on top of it; the valve appears slightly darker under normal room lighting):

When viewed on ones arm (unfortunately, my camera is on the fritz, so I do not have an arm shot), the entire watch just looks - well, more right. More authentic. More like a gen SD or COMEX, at least from that side. The 'valve' draws the eye directly to it and the eye does not leave disappointed. I am still not quite sure why this small part (and simple mod) produces such a dramatic change in the overall appearance of a watch thus modded, but it does. And for the better. Much better. Promise. So do it.

_________________

Update 6/07 -- My camera was out of service when I originally posted this tutorial so I was unable to include a wrist shot. But here it is now

I have also since continued research into gen vintage Comex Subs and there appear to be both shiny, domed He valves and non-shiny, flat valves. So either one is correct. But I think the non-shiny, flat version makes a rep look more authentic because I have never seen this form on any other rep watches (only gens).

Yeah, what longshot said....ah, WOW!

I don't know which is more impressive--the quality of that rep or the artistry of the relume!

Again, Wow (and I don't (didn't?) even like B&R watches)!

Where can I find the ajoesmith article on how to do that with tape? Looked through all his posts couldn't find anything.

http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...c=21298&hl=

Just be carefull when using nail polish remover as it can make a right mess of printed or painted parts.

Exactly correct!

I guess I should probably add (for those who haven't read the tutorial) that the gear in question is affixed to a blank metal plate. There's no printing or non-metal parts in close proximity. So as long as you're reasonably careful, it should be very easy to remove both the nail polish and gear (if you feel the need to return the register to its previously "broken" state).

Oh, and in case anyone's interested, here's the "frozen" results (with "fixed" 12-hour register hand pointing to "12" [note: the (screw-type) pushers have been removed whilst the search commences for more appropriate (button) pushers]):

p.s. If anyone knows of a method for (accurately) filling-in the missing black dial colour in the minute (i.e., tiny, even when viewed at 10x!) isthmus between the bottom of the 12-hour register and the white circumference of the dial, please PM me.

After completing ajoesmith's "Guide To 'killing' The 6 Oclock Subdial On Speedmasters" (to fix the 12-hour register on a Paul Newman Daytona), I discovered an alternative method of stabilizing (fixing) the subdial hand that I think works just as well as ajoesmith's approach but offers the benefit of improved security (over time).

ajoesmith [cleverly] used double-sided tape to secure the 12-hour register gear to the plate, which is a good option since it makes the mod easy to un-do. But my experience with double-sided tape, especially when used in environments where the temperature varies, is that it will eventually loosen requiring the watch to be opened and the gear re-affixed.

As I'm the type who doesn't like to have to pay for the same real estate twice, I decided I needed a better (more permanent) solution. After considering a number of possible solutions, it dawned on me that the perfect fixer was nail polish, which is regularly used in electronics and motors with great success because it's stable over time, easy to apply (and see) and can be easily removed with standard nail polish remover without causing deterioration of the adjoining metal parts.

A couple of dabs along the edge of the gear where it meets the plate, five minutes of an air-dry and you have a simple, cheap semi-permanent fix that shouldn't come loose until or unless you want it to!

What have we got here?

And, before anyone asks... Not for sale... (sorry)

Cheers!

Randy,

I just have to say....<sigh>....lost for words (which says it all).

Looks like someone's gonna enjoy the holidays this year.

No stupid question...

It depends of the type of handpuller. If you have the two handed version, which does not press on the dial then you can pull one at the time. It grabs the hand in its claw. If you have the one handed version then it presses on your dial... Be aware that you protect your dial with soft tissue (cut a opening so you can slide it on the dial underneath the hands. With this puller you better take all hands of at once because if not it could lean on the hand below and bend it. Set your clock to 24:00 before you pull the hands otherwise datechange gets messed up. Good luck

I'm not quite sure if, by two-handed, you mean the number of hands required to hold the hand remover tool or if that's the number of hands the tool is designed to remove?? I apologize, again, for my naivete, but I seem to keep getting tools that are recommended as "The one tool to have for this job....", only to find out that it's the wrong tool (or, at least, not the proper tool for a basic task).

To make it less confusing, here's the tool I've been struggling with to try to remove the center seconds (and minute and hour) hands on the Newman Daytona rep I'm working on:

Am I just using it incorrectly or is this in fact the wrong tool to remove the seconds hand (above the hour and minute hands) at the top of the pinion?

In perusing Ofrei's hand removers, I'm thinking that the tool you have is either the Bergeon #6 Presto Hand Remover (which looks like it's designed to remove hands w/o the need to rest on the dial) or one of the lever-type hand removers a few items below the #6 on this page (which would obviously require "two hands"): http://www.ofrei.com/page_209.html

I hate to even ask this because I'm sure this'll be another of those newbie questions that've been answered to death (but I've been unable to find the answer).

How do you go about removing the 3 hands on the cannon pinion? I've got a Presto hand remover (from Birdman), but I can't figure out how to use it to remove the two top hands? Specifically, I know you need to remove the seconds hand first, but since it's at the top of the pinion, there's nothing for the hand puller's pads to sit on and use for leverage (I presume the pads rest on the dial (which I've protected with a small sheet of thick paper) and then you squeeze the springs on the side of the hand remover to press the hand off the pinion??? If I've got that right, what do you rest the hand remover's pads on when removing the second hand?

I have a feeling the answer's gonna be embarrassing, but for the life of me I can't figure this out.

http://www.replicacollector.com/members/in...showtopic=21298

PS: For the umpteenth time: The movement is NOT "Lemania". It has absolutely NOTHING to do with Lemania. It's a Seagull / Venus copy movement.

By-Tor,

Many thanks for the link.

It's difficult for a relative newbie here to know everything that may've been corrected/answered previously. In any case, I referred to the movement by the name the dealer used who sold me the watch. My apologies for the mistake.

In my experience, a Tropic 21 will fit an EE 6263. I do find, however, that the bezels (especially the black one) can be a bit tight fitting over the crystal.

leitz: As I mentioned in the previous post, I don't know what an "EE" is (if that's one of the dealers here, then I'm pretty sure this rep isn't one of them because I got this Newman Daytona 1-2 years ago on a UK auction site)?

Since the watch I'm working on DOES have the black bezel, I should probably ask what type of problems did you run into fitting the crystal to your watch? Did you need to remove the bezel and, if so, what did you use (case knife, bezel remover, etc.)?

1) Depending on the size of the opening for the existing pusher, you could use a 2.5mm pusher from Ofrei. Not sure if you are looking for screwdown or pump pushers, but they do carry both.

2) ajoesmith did a step by step tutorial on how to freeze the 6:00 subdial.

3) You can simply cut the end link hoops out to accommodate the springbar. I've done it on a number of end links, and it works fine. There is really no need for the hoops,a s the springbar and last link work together to secure the end link.

4) The correct crystal is a T21. If you are installing on a non-DW or EE, it probably won't fit. The case will either be too large, or the lip for the crystal will be of incorrect size.

5) Probably something I wouldn't recommend doing, unless you have a very steady hand.

Best of luck!

R

Randy,

Many thanks for the info.

Re 1: Actually, the reason I posted the question here is because I was confused by all the options offered by Ofrei (I need the non-screw "pump" pushers).

I don't really have the proper tool (caliper?) to measure the exact dimensions of the pushers I removed from the case. I just set the pusher on a ruler and eyeballed each of the dimensions. It looks like the diameter of the portion of the pusher that fits into the hole in the case is more like 2.2mm or 2.3mm (Ofrei does offer one 2.2mm pusher). And I guess I could order one of each of the 10 options they offer to see which fits (and looks) best, but, at $12/each, that's not my favourite option. I'm hoping someone has done this before so I don't have to reinvent the same wheel.

Also, what is recommended for fitting press-fit pushers into the case? Ofrei lists a Bergeon 6161 (plyers for fitting pushers) for $89 and a Horotec Pushers-Press for $79.50, which says it will also install crown tubes. Is there a less expensive alternative? Though, since I've got a couple of crown tube installations in my upcoming schedule, the Horotec (presuming it works as advertised) may not be a bad idea...

Re 2: Thanks, I'll search the archives for ajoesmith's solutions.

Re 3: Unless I'm misunderstanding you, the only thing that appears to connect the end piece to the springbar are those two little hoops that appear to be welded to the inside of the end piece. If I cut or remove them, there won't be anything (in the end piece) to slide the springbar through:

Re 4: I don't mean to sound (too) ignorant, but I'm not familar with an "EE" and I'm pretty sure the rep I've got isn't a DW (I think I read in one of your posts that the DW's have 19mm lug widths and this one's 20mm), so does that mean I won't be able to fit ANY (generic) Tropic crystals or is it just the T21 that won't fit?

If NONE of the Tropics (including the generic Tropics that Ofrei sells fit (I've got four of their generic T19s that I was hoping to use for this Newman and the DRSD I got from Andrew), is there another crystal I can use? And I guess I should ask how I can measure the current crystals so I don't make the same mistake again?

Re 5: Definitely no steady hands here...so I'll definitely need all the luck I can get....

no problem buddy, andi agree, you would think that it would interfere with the desire for this case, but the case itself, other then the lugholes, is pretty much perfect in every other way.

i wasnt aware that this was such a common thing with the tw classic cases, personally, i probably would have gone for one without the lugholes if i knew...

Is "tw" Andrew? If so, then it must be a case-specific problem because the lug holes on the DRSD I recently received from him (which is next to be modded after I finish the Newman Daytona) are in the same locations as the vintage 5514 Comex I referred to in my initial response to you.

A few questions re the Lemania-based Paul Newman:

1. Is there a good source for gen button (as opposed to screw-type) pushers for Lemania-based Paul Newman Daytonas?

A gen OEM part would be nice, but a similar generic or aftermarket replacement that fits the case and works the Lemania movement would be fine. The pushers that I removed were press-fit (as opposed to screwed) into the case.

2. Does anyone have info (an illustrated, step-by-step tutorial would be a dream come true) on how to "freeze" the 12-hour register so the hand always points to "12"? As is, the Lemania movement's a work of art, but, unfortunately, it's also a dead give-away (as a fake) because of the duplicated hour hands.

3. Other than eBay, is there a source for SS Oyster end pieces that will accept the gen 2mm springbars (the lug spacing is 20mm)?

4. What is the correct crystal for the Paul Newman Daytona (T19, T21, other???)?

I have a generic T19 that I was going to use, but I'm wondering if either the T21 or a "Superdome" (not sure of the Tropic number???) would be more authentic?

5. Finally, has anyone ever successfully painted the small black area of the dial that separates the bottom of the 12-hour register from the white band around the circumference of the dial:

As it is, it's the only (obvious) flaw on the dial that keeps it from looking gen, but it's so small that I can't figure out how to paint just the small strip without getting the paint on the adjoining areas, which would completely [censored] it up. Viewed through a 7x loupe, the target area's about as wide as the tip of a sewing needle, if that helps.

Too bad you didn't have a better camera, but I enjoyed the trip just the same.

I have an eary Triplock fitted to my MBW 1665... I'll shoot a pic of it tonight when I get home. A picture should tell all

Here's an update: I just checked out some vintage Subs and Sea-Dwellers on TZ and in Dowling's Rolex book and they're definitely narrower than the current modern Subs and SDs. In fact, the DRSD I purchased from Andrew @ Trustytime (thanks again, Andrew!) has what looks like a perfect vintage Triplock crown. Here's a comparison of the (too-wide) crown on the 5514 Comex Sub rep I'm currently working on (on right (crown guard modding in process)) and the crown on the DRSD 1665 from Andrew (on left):

Not only is the width of the knurled portion correct on Andrew's DRSD crown, but (similar to the gens) the coronet and dots on the cap are clear, prominent and distinct (sorry, no photo). In fact, it's so accurate that even the (sloping) distance from the edge of the knurled portion to the top of the cap appears to be dead-on. So this rep crown's a good alternative to the gen for modding vintage Subs and SDs (presuming someone knows the source of these rep crowns...Ubiquitous, Ziggy, Ferris Bueller....Anyone???).

I'm not a part expert either, but...

Initially, I thought Rob may've been onto something since I'm of the mind that there were (at least) two versions of the Triplock crown--a "wider" one used on current Sub and SD models and a narrower one used on pre-1996 (or so?) models (you can see the differences in crown widths in the latest version of James Dowlings' "Rolex: The Best of Time"). But I have a hard time believing that Rolex would produce a crown wrapped in foil, regardless of the type or quality of the wrapping. That's just not the kind of thing that Rolex does. On the other hand, I found something similar on a DateJust rep about 10 years ago. Once, while I was putting on a jacket with metal snaps, the crown must've grazed one of the snaps which revealed a generic crown under the foil wrapping that contained the coronet. Not exactly the same, but similar enough to make me think it's more likely a rep crown than a genuine Rolex made part.

I have an eary Triplock fitted to my MBW 1665... I'll shoot a pic of it tonight when I get home. A picture should tell all

Yes, absolutely. Thanks.

The older crowns and tubes are hard to come by and expensive when you can find them. If you are going to replace your crowns and tubes the modern genuines are your best bet. I saw an old twinlock sub crown for sale on VRF about a week ago for 100 euros. These older crowns were routinely upgraded to triplock crowns when they were serviced, so a triplock is easily believable.

Thank you for the reply and info.

I think you're right about the Triplock, as long as I can find one that isn't too modern (wide)...

For a Sub/SD of this era, your crown options are the 7mm Twinlock, or the 7mm Triplocks; to further clarify, there are two different flavors of Triplock- vintage from the late 60's - 70's and then the current modern crowns.

[....]

The modern Triplocks are the easiest to find... The vintage Triplocks and Twinlocks pop up from time to time, but are usually a fair bit more expensive, and not quite as frequently found. In addition, the Twinlock requires a specific tube, as the threads in the Twinlock go right to the opening (whereas the Triplocks start halfway inside and go up to clear the external tube gasket).

Hope this helps...

Ubiquitious,

Yes, that helps alot!

I don't know if my previous reply (to thewightstuff) narrowed things down a bit, but here's a pic of the watch with its current crown:

While the Twinlock's probably a bit *too* vintage for this model, I think an early Triplock would be fitting (no pun intended). Would that look make sense?

The other question is would the crown and crown tube Ziggy fitted onto the Yacht Master in his tutorial also be correct for this 5514 Comex Sub???

ive always considered putting the older style crown and tube back onto my 5512 as its had the newer style fitted at some point.

this is however a rolex service swap out and general consensus is that the benefits from using the better designed newer style outweigh having the older style.

i know where your coming from though. they look nice.

Yes, I think you've got the idea. However, just to be clear, I'm aiming at the early Triplock; the crown that's kitted-out an o-ring gasket that becomes visible when the crown is screwed out to time-setting position; not the Twinlock, which doesn't have this gasket. And I'm not really concerned with the style of coronet on the cap of the crown (though it'd be a nice bonus if I could get that right, too). What I'm more concerned with is how wide the knurled part of the crown is when you view the watch from the front. That is, the knurled portion of the crown on current Subs and SDs is relatively wider than the same section of the crown on, say, 70s/80s models.

One of the things that usually betrays a rep as being a rep (and not a genuine Sub/SD) is the width of the crown. I know that Rolex often replaces earlier crowns with later versions during service, but I don't think I've ever seen them replace a narrow vintage crown with one of the current (wide) ones. It usually seems to be something about half way between the two and that's probably what I'm aiming for. The rep 5514 that I'm working on now came with one of these wide crowns, which doesn't look at all right on a watch with an acrylic (domed) crystal.

Does that make sense?

Does anyone know the correct crown and crown tube sizes for vintage Rolex 5514 and 1665 watches?

I need to remove the existing crown (which looks like a modern (larger) SD crown) & crown tube in a few vintage reps to do proper crown guard mods and I figured that I might as well replace the rep parts with gens since the process of removal and reinstallation of the crown tubes are similar, but the end result (with a narrower (vintage) gen crown instead of a wider (new style) rep crown) would be better.

I'm kind of following Ziggy's crown tube tutorial, but he performed his transplant on a (newer) Yacht Master model, which I suspect uses one of the current wider(?) crowns. So I'm not sure if the crown (7mm) and crown tube (3mm) he used would be the correct size for vintage Subs/SDs. I know that the crown widths (i.e., the left-to-right width of the crown when viewed from the front of the watch) were narrower on earlier vintage models. So I thought I ought to check before going through the process only to find out later that a too large gen crown looks "fake" on a vintage watch.

Ubiquitious, any thoughts?