freddy333

I have an eary Triplock fitted to my MBW 1665... I'll shoot a pic of it tonight when I get home. A picture should tell all

Yes, absolutely. Thanks.

The older crowns and tubes are hard to come by and expensive when you can find them. If you are going to replace your crowns and tubes the modern genuines are your best bet. I saw an old twinlock sub crown for sale on VRF about a week ago for 100 euros. These older crowns were routinely upgraded to triplock crowns when they were serviced, so a triplock is easily believable.

Thank you for the reply and info.

I think you're right about the Triplock, as long as I can find one that isn't too modern (wide)...

For a Sub/SD of this era, your crown options are the 7mm Twinlock, or the 7mm Triplocks; to further clarify, there are two different flavors of Triplock- vintage from the late 60's - 70's and then the current modern crowns.

[....]

The modern Triplocks are the easiest to find... The vintage Triplocks and Twinlocks pop up from time to time, but are usually a fair bit more expensive, and not quite as frequently found. In addition, the Twinlock requires a specific tube, as the threads in the Twinlock go right to the opening (whereas the Triplocks start halfway inside and go up to clear the external tube gasket).

Hope this helps...

Ubiquitious,

Yes, that helps alot!

I don't know if my previous reply (to thewightstuff) narrowed things down a bit, but here's a pic of the watch with its current crown:

While the Twinlock's probably a bit *too* vintage for this model, I think an early Triplock would be fitting (no pun intended). Would that look make sense?

The other question is would the crown and crown tube Ziggy fitted onto the Yacht Master in his tutorial also be correct for this 5514 Comex Sub???

ive always considered putting the older style crown and tube back onto my 5512 as its had the newer style fitted at some point.

this is however a rolex service swap out and general consensus is that the benefits from using the better designed newer style outweigh having the older style.

i know where your coming from though. they look nice.

Yes, I think you've got the idea. However, just to be clear, I'm aiming at the early Triplock; the crown that's kitted-out an o-ring gasket that becomes visible when the crown is screwed out to time-setting position; not the Twinlock, which doesn't have this gasket. And I'm not really concerned with the style of coronet on the cap of the crown (though it'd be a nice bonus if I could get that right, too). What I'm more concerned with is how wide the knurled part of the crown is when you view the watch from the front. That is, the knurled portion of the crown on current Subs and SDs is relatively wider than the same section of the crown on, say, 70s/80s models.

One of the things that usually betrays a rep as being a rep (and not a genuine Sub/SD) is the width of the crown. I know that Rolex often replaces earlier crowns with later versions during service, but I don't think I've ever seen them replace a narrow vintage crown with one of the current (wide) ones. It usually seems to be something about half way between the two and that's probably what I'm aiming for. The rep 5514 that I'm working on now came with one of these wide crowns, which doesn't look at all right on a watch with an acrylic (domed) crystal.

Does that make sense?

Does anyone know the correct crown and crown tube sizes for vintage Rolex 5514 and 1665 watches?

I need to remove the existing crown (which looks like a modern (larger) SD crown) & crown tube in a few vintage reps to do proper crown guard mods and I figured that I might as well replace the rep parts with gens since the process of removal and reinstallation of the crown tubes are similar, but the end result (with a narrower (vintage) gen crown instead of a wider (new style) rep crown) would be better.

I'm kind of following Ziggy's crown tube tutorial, but he performed his transplant on a (newer) Yacht Master model, which I suspect uses one of the current wider(?) crowns. So I'm not sure if the crown (7mm) and crown tube (3mm) he used would be the correct size for vintage Subs/SDs. I know that the crown widths (i.e., the left-to-right width of the crown when viewed from the front of the watch) were narrower on earlier vintage models. So I thought I ought to check before going through the process only to find out later that a too large gen crown looks "fake" on a vintage watch.

Ubiquitious, any thoughts?

lionsandtigers,

Oops, I guess I missed that. My apologies.

Other than welding the holes closed and then redrilling (with a drill press) entirely new holes, I can't see how to move or rebias an existing hole. I used to restore cars and this was a fairly common problem.

And I hope you don't mind my asking, but why is this case so revered if the lug holes are off-center? I would think that would immediately preclude it from any kind of serious consideration.

get that testing started buddy these small lugholes are killing me......

I was hesitant to do it myself, but the lug hole mod really IS easy.

Based on Edge and Ziggy's wonderful tutorials (and after some supplemental discussion), I used a 1.3mm Cobalt drill bit (which never jammed or broke), an inexpensive Black & Decker hand drill and some 3-in-1 oil. I wrapped the (unopened) watch in Viva papertowels (to keep the oil from seeping into the case) and held it in my hand. Then, with the other hand, I lined up the drill bit with the first hole and ran it through at moderate speed. I stopped a couple of times on the way through to clear out the metal shavings, re-oil and then continued all the way through. The first hole took about two minutes, if that much. And, as my experience level increased, each subsequent hole took even less time than the previous one. I probably sailed (carefully) through the last hole in less than 30 seconds. Just be sure to keep the drill pointed directly into the hole so you don't "oval" it.

Then I cleaned the small amount of burring around the hole with a Dremel "Stainless Steel" wire brush attachment. This took about a minute for each hole.

Then I used the Dremel white cloth wheel attachment with some green rouge to buff/polish the outside of each lug to return it to its original shine. About five or six minutes for each side of the case. (I had some experience buffing watch cases when I was a kid, so it might take you a bit more time here...but not much more.)

Finally (and this did take a bit of time), I had to grind down the portion of each end piece that fits against the case, because the new (20mm long, 2mm diameter) springbar pins wouldn't quite line up with the lug holes. This took the most time, probably around 15 minutes of trial-and-error grinding and test-fitting until everything snapped together again. In fact, I was quite surprised at how easy this procedure actually is and how well the finished product turned out. The lug holes look absolutely genuine (for a vintage Sub/SD case):

I don't think I spent more than an hour on the entire operation. Cleaning up the green rouge (that covered EVERYTHING in the room) was another story....

My hands are anything but steady. But I think if I can work out a scheme to layout the boundaries for the enlarged markers and keep the lume/paint from bleeding or "spilling" beyond the masking, it ought to be a fairly simple exercise. I'm awaiting some tools to get started, but I'll post my results when I can.

If you have an MBW, the markers are already pretty decent...

By the way, your 1665 is gorgeous. Hopefully, the DRSD I want to mod will turn out as good.

For vintage 1680/1665/551x?

The only way to make them wider is to paint/lume them wider...

If you have an MBW, the markers are already pretty decent...

Unfortunately, I don't (have an MBW (but I'd appreciate any info you could provide in locating a source for a new DRSD model)). The 1665 I got from Trustytime has VERY narrow 6 & 9 markers, which is odd considering how accurate the rest of the dial is.

Re widening the existing markers: Is the procedure I described (plotting out the larger area with painters masking tape and then using lume paint (from ofrei or similar) the best way to do it? If so, any gotcha's I should watch out for (e.g., paint bleeding under tape, most accurate lume colours, etc.)?

There is also a spline looking device that will drive and remove gen

crown tubes. Rep tubes, on the other hand, are (generally) smooth inside.

Just wondering...do alot of people replace the rep crown/tube with gen?

The crowns on most recent reps I've seen (or purchased) seem to be very close to the gen parts and I'm wondering what, if any, benefit there is to replacing with gen parts?

Is there a tutorial or recommended procedure for how to widen the (too-narrow) hour markers at 6 & 9 on some Subs and Sea-Dwellers?

I'm considering marking the correct shapes with painters' masking tape and then using white luminous paste to paint/resize them.

Anyone have experience here or is there a source for good, rep Double-Red Sea-Dweller dials?

By the way, is this the proper forum for these questions or should I post them in the Expert Area?

Offshore: Ok, just so I don't end up with the watch equivalent of a drowned camera: the suction-handle contraption (like the one Birdman sells for $4) should be sufficient to reinstall the caseback and still achieve water-tightness (presuming all seals, etc., are up to snuff)? If so, I'll add that to my parts order list.

Any other tools/parts/supplies you'd recommend for movement removal, hand r&r, crystal r&r, vintage Sub/Sea-Dweller dial reluming, lug hole enlarging, crown guard modding, etc.?

Many thanks!!

I just had a brainstorm: I'll get a 50lb iron anvil and weld the front of the watch case to the top face of the anvil. Then I'll weld the caseback to the drill chuck of my 10 ft/lb hand drill. In theory, since the drill can only muster 10 ft/lbs and the anvil weights more than twice that, the caseback outta loosen long before the anvil leaves terra firma and begins to spin...

It's been a long week....

Offshore: I know the tool you're talking about and almost purchased one a few days ago. But I wondered "how do you tighten the caseback to assure water-tightness (or at least water resistance) without the proper socket (to lock onto the caseback splines) and torque"? I figured you still need some sort of socket to reinstall the caseback, and, if so, I might as well get that issue squared away before I try to remove the caseback. I don't want to do a Dubya and get in without having a plan to get out (or, at least, close up). (There's a joke in there somewhere...)

lionsandtigers: I don't know if it's a good sign or not, but the duct tape didn't work on the vintage DRSD case I just got from TrustyTime.

Alligoat: I don't mean to question your memory, but are you sure the Dbce55a is the correct drill bit to enlarge the lug holes to match the gen Sea-Dweller case and fit the OEM sized spring bars?

Just before I placed the order for the Dbce55a, I took another quick look at my 1/16" titanium bit and it doesn't look much larger than the stock lug holes the TrustyTime DRSD rep came with (and the stock lug holes are definitely smaller than the gen holes). So if my 1/16" titanium bit (which is larger in diameter than the Dbce55a) looks too small, could the Dbce55a be the wrong part number?

Dbce55a is the bit. It is smaller than 1/16th, which is .0625". I have all this stuff at work and was writing last night at home, CRS disease. 3/64ths is .046875, so the .0520 is between the two sizes.

Nanug's wad of duct tape has worked for me in the past, but it's not the greatest for getting the case back on tight for WR purposes- maybe one of those cheap Indian dies would fit! But who wants to spend the money to find out. One guy talked about buying the rubber end for maybe a set of crutches, or something like that and using it as a suction tool. It definitely going to call for an inventive mind.

I'd give the Home Depot drill press thing a try. Look at all the experience you'll gain, but don't forget to try on a cheap rep first. I've got 3 or 4 of those $50-60 reps, they're great for learning and experimenting.

I even bought one CN Datejust last year for $60 and it's such a good watch, that I haven't even opened it up or torn it apart. Hell, it's even WR. Maybe I should lube the o-rings and get it pressure tested. I wear it alll the time for doing my "[censored]" work.

Alligoat,

Good points, all.

I'll order a set of the Dbce55a bits (along with 2mm diameter spring bars) today.

Re the caseback remover: what do the modders here usually use to r&r the casebacks? The "L G Rolex Case Opener" that Birdman's got advertised for $75 looks good (even includes a case holder), but I'd like to get some feedback on this (or other recommended options) before I buy another opener that turns out to be...well, problematic. I've got a handful of old reps that I'd like to mod.

I'll be making a trip to Home Depot this evening in search of a drill press of some form (hopefully that I can use with my hand drill).

I'm not too worried about my ability to do the actual modding, it's getting all of the tools and parts together that I'm worried about. Based on my initial days of reading, I thought I'd had everything I needed a few days ago. But plans went awry when the caseback put the brakes on the operation and some of the recent responses I've gotten have raised other questions that weren't answered (at least not clearly) in what I read.

For instance, I now understand that the larger 2mm diameter spring bars may not fit inside the stock rep bracelet end pieces. As these are just bent sheet metal, I'm not clear on how to enlarge them to fit the wider spring bars??? I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get the caseback off and try to remove the crown tube (e.g., is there a recommended crown tube remover?)....

The oldest trick in the book is to wad up a hunk of duct tape into a ball, mash it against the caseback and use it to unscrew the piece. It's worked on every one of my reps, and none of my gens.

You had my hopes up there, but I just tried it and it didn't work. That thing is definitely screwed on (water?) tight!

As an aside, I just checked the fit of that same socket on an old (cheap) 5513 that I purchased a several years ago (with Asian movement) and the 29.5 socket fits perfectly. However, when I compare the splines on the 5513 caseback to those on the TrustyTime vintage DRSD, there's a visible difference. When viewed from the side, the profile of the DRSD splines are considerably more vertical than that of the splines on the 5513, which look very much like the gen caseback. Odd, considering the 5513 was a cheapo and the TrustyTime DRSD is an otherwise well-constructed ETA-based rep.

Gee, I sure wish I could find one of those MBWs I keep reading about (but have so far been unable to locate...hint, hint...).

Snap-On has a number 55 bit that works, it's cobalt and you can order it online. The freight will kill you, but the bits are only $3.25 each. Best to order a few. If your a mechanic, just call your salesman.

I think a drill press is the only way to go and as Joe says, you need something to hold the watch, a jig or whatever while you're drilling. Use the slowest speed possible- 550 rpm maybe. Some use oil but I didn't and the cobalt bits cut like butter, but go slowly cause their little bits and very wobbly. Don't want to snap one off!

Oh, the dies usually work, 29.5 is the right size, but I have one rep that's a bastard and the Bergeon die doesn't quite fit it. I don't know what WatchPrince sells, but I did have a cheap set from India and it was a POS. FWIW, TWG has some oddball cases, esp. when you get the asian 21j movt.

Alligoat,

Thanks for the additional info.

I didn't see that part number (55) on the snap-on.com site, but I did find a part number DBCE55A (http://buy1.snapon.com/catalog/item.asp?tool=all&item_ID=63028&group_ID=939&store=snapon-store), which is a 'Drill Bit, Wire Gauge, Cobalt, .0520"'. Is that the same one?

Also, I've already got a set of titanium drill bits (titanium's supposed to be better than cobalt for drilling through steel) in sizes of 1/16", 5/64", 3/32" on up. I realize this probably isn't your specialty (mm-to-inch conversions), but do you know if the 1/16" bit size is similar to the bit you used?

The DRSD rep I got from TrustyTime contains an ETA and the caseback removal tool from WatchPrince looks like the same thing ofrei is selling for a few dollars more. So, from your comments above, I'm guessing that the caseback on this DRSD is slightly larger than normal. Any suggestions as to how to remove the caseback since the 29.50 socket I've got doesn't quite fit?

Here, and I thought removing the caseback would be the easy part!

I guess I'll have to make another trip to Home Depot to see if they have any of those drill press stands that hold a hand drill (I live in an apartment and don't have access to either a drill press or shop where I could borrow one).

on the drill bit size, i have yet to seen one u can require from our home depot or lowes i order mine online, i use a mini drill press and a jig to hold it steady that i made, so it does a precise clean cut , then i mill around the edges to give it that vintage look sort of like a very slight counter sinking also it deburrs the freshly cut holes, the size i use is slightly smaller than the metric ones most use only because i like the springbars to be snuugger and hold the bracelet snug to the case,(also with wear they loosen up a little bit) i will also tell u i use cobalt bits made by bosche company they seem to last longer and r harder to break when they flex a bit while drilling , i used to use a dremel and it did fine but it was a slow process and sometimes could oval the hole if u dont hold it straight , i hope this helps

joe

Joe,

Thank you for the info.

Can I ask what size drill bit do you use and while I've got your ear, can I also ask what size spring bar you use in the enlarged lug holes and where you purchase the spring bars from?

I was about to begin modding the crown guards (enlarge the lug holes and reshape the guards) on the very nice vintage DRSD I got from Andrew at TrustyTime when I ran into a couple of snags:

1. None of the sockets in the Rolex caseback removal tool set from TheWatchPrince.com fit the splines on the DRSD's caseback. The largest of the six sockets, the No.5 socket labeled "29.50", is the closest but it doesn't seat all the way home and, so, I'm afraid that if I apply any pressure and turn it, it'll slip and strip the splines on the caseback.

Is there a trick to this or is there a 7th socket for this model that doesn't come with the standard caseback removal set?

2. I've read a (large) number of postings over the course of the past couple of weeks describing how others have successfully drilled out the lug holes on vintage Subs and Sea-Dwellers, but I'm kind of confused as to the correct drill size and whether the drilling operation can be performed with a good Black & Decker hand drill and titanium drill bits (made for drilling metal), or whether I need a drill press?

If the latter (I need a drill press), does anyone know if I can use one of the relatively inexpensive gizmos that Home Depot sells that allows you to mount a standard hand drill into its frame and then use it like a drill press? Has anyone had good success with one of these (presuming the hand drill by itself won't cut it)?

After spending days searching through the forums (all), I've been unable to find out where people are seeing and buying these "MBW" Rolex reps from?! Can anyone direct me to a specific posting (or forum)?

I've been collecting reps for more than 20 years and I wish I'd found this site 20 years ago. My hat's off to the founder(s). A very useful resource!