Franken watch: why?

[GenTLe]

Hi Gents,

maybe a stupid question, but let me comment on it.

Stated that:

1) a rep is a rep: it could have an ETA inside or a gen dial, but still it's with no documents and its value is just the sum of the parts it has inside, for sure far away from an even old gen

2) a good rep working fine is a good watch: the A2836 which is coming with my last purchase from ToroBravos is incredibly nicely done. Unless there is the need to replace the movement, I don't see value in replace the movement (or the crown, or the hands, or...)

 

I admire the work behind a good Franken: I can barely imagine what kind of knowledge and "good hands" you need to do a good job. But again, see points 1 an 2

 

So, please, help me to understand which is the reason that push a person to purchase a rep (and now the prices are REALLY high! The latest AP 15400 is over 450US$!!!!!) and then put another bunch of bucks into it raising the expense to nearly half of the value of a gen one, because really I've difficulties to get this   

[danielv2000]

For some, it's the thrill of chasing down parts which can last months, in some cases, years.

For others, it's the thrill of having an almost 100% gen watch for a fraction of the cost.

In the end, it's all personal choices. Hang around a bit and maybe in 6 months, you will realize that the little tell on your dial and insert is starting to eat at you and you will get a gen one. Next, you will realize that a gen bracelet looks a little better than a rep. Once you have a gen dial in a franken, cutting the feet is pure insanity so you will go big and buy a gen movement... and so on and so forth.

[icoopernicus]

The process of modifying the watch is very gratifying in itself. For most, a "Franken" is not about getting it to be more like gen and saving a little money in the process, it's about the journey. 

 

To create a franken you must gen parts that are often difficult to come by, sometimes you need to modify parts of the rep case to make the gen crown fit or that gen bracelet. You've got to figure out how to attach the gen dial to the A2836 movement because the dial feet are in the wrong spot. Like you mentioned, you need a steady hand, a little know-how, and a lot of determination. 

 

At the end of the day you have a watch that means more to you than any rep or even any gen, this new watch is now a part of you!

 

I hope this helps. 

[imajedi]

There is no doubt at some point it becomes counter productive. There's a gen IWC 3717 dial for sale on one of the other forums for $700 right now and I've been looking for one forever but a like new gen is only $3000 so that just doesn't make sense. However, the quality of the gen parts is just unmatched. The gen PO dial is just so much better it's incredible. To this end spending an extra couple hundred bucks is worth it if you really like the watch. You also learn a ton about watches once you start down that path. That knowledge makes you appreciate the quality of gen even more and you start wanting to Franken more. There's also a lot of satisfaction looking down and knowing you built it.

[GenTLe]

Thanks guys, got it.

The explanation I like more is the Icopernicus one: sometimes as an hobby I get some old motorcycle and put it back in proper shape, and I tell you: having a conn rod in a hand and a completely clean ad unassembled engine on the working table is something incredibly nice.

That can even overdue the airbrush paint part (which I actually don't like at all, even if i'm able to do that).

It reminds me when I spent around 30h polishing the wheels (and other few others hours to re-paint them) of my Suzuki TL1000S years ago. My mother and my friends were thinking I was simply mad   

Cheers, Alex

[Mike on a bike]

Alex we strive for accuracy some out of the joy of building other to have a call out proof watch on the wrist (if there is such a beast) others still because of the rarity as in some vintage builds that are for all purposes unattainable. It is what we do this is our past time.

[Aero_Dave]

For me, it's a journey I think most of us take after being here a while. I've wanted the classic 16610 lug-hole cased sub for a long time. I was about to jump on a rep, but after reading more and more about every little detail / tell I thought I was going to spend just a 'little bit' more and have a nicer rep built. I started gathering the parts and even had most of the parts with my builder when it hit me. It's still not going to 'really' satisfy me. So before it was even done getting built, I started a new Franken build. See my other post under the Rolex section on 'My 1st Real Franken Sub'. I wanted to be able to look at My watch and see nothing but 'almost' all gen parts. As others have already said, gen parts have a look that the reps just can't duplicate. The real dial & hands are so much better than what the reps have out. I did not build it to try and fool anyone else.  But I do know if anyone happens to look at it, they will have no idea it's not 100% real. Plus I spent about 45% of the cost for the same thing in a 100% gen. Another plus for me is, now if it needs work, I have many options / modders that can fix it for a hole lot cheaper than if I had a gen. Just because I can afford gen sub, I really don't want to spend $500 just for a cleaning. I understand all of the work that Rolex puts into a service, but that doesn't change the cost they charge.
I couldn't be happier now.

Thanks,
Dave...

[freddy333]

There are various levels of frankens, too. From a rep with a single gen part to a gen with a single aftermarket part - both are frankens, & there may be myriad reasons why frankens are made, sought after & collected. But, in the end, I think it simply boils down to an envious pursuit of perfection.

[automatico]

I learned about 'Frankensteins' the hard way...by putting 10 or 12 of them together. All of mine were vintage...5512/13, 1680, 1016, and 1655. All had genuine movements and one 1680 and one 1016 also had genuine dials.

 

Here is some of what I learned on the genuine movement vintage 'Frankenstein' watches mentioned above:

1...Today's prices for genuine rolex parts are absurd.

2...Frankensteins cost way too much for what you end up with.

3...They are extremely hard to sell except on replica forums.

4...They are Ok if you plan to wear the watch for a long time and part it out when you are done with it.

5...Selling one is not a good idea because sooner or later it will probably be sold as genuine. 

6...A fresh Eta 28xx movement is just as about good as a rolex movement, rugged, reliable, and a hellofalot cheaper.

7...Do not cut dial feet off of a valuable genuine dial...that is what Yuki dials are for.

 

I took all mine apart except for one '1680' with a DW case, 1575 movement, and genuine dial. I left it together so the dial and movement would be protected and put a note with it telling exactly what it is so if I drop under the radar before I part it out. I am putting the genuine movements in genuine cases when I can find a case at a reasonable price...OPD, DJ, AK...not submariner, explorer etc cases.

[denimhead]

Hi Gents,

maybe a stupid question, but let me comment on it.

Stated that:

1) a rep is a rep: it could have an ETA inside or a gen dial, but still it's with no documents and its value is just the sum of the parts it has inside, for sure far away from an even old gen

2) a good rep working fine is a good watch: the A2836 which is coming with my last purchase from ToroBravos is incredibly nicely done. Unless there is the need to replace the movement, I don't see value in replace the movement (or the crown, or the hands, or...)

 

I admire the work behind a good Franken: I can barely imagine what kind of knowledge and "good hands" you need to do a good job. But again, see points 1 an 2

 

So, please, help me to understand which is the reason that push a person to purchase a rep (and now the prices are REALLY high! The latest AP 15400 is over 450US$!!!!!) and then put another bunch of bucks into it raising the expense to nearly half of the value of a gen one, because really I've difficulties to get this   

For me personally the fun of a franken build is the sourcing and hunting out of hard to get parts. I have learned so much purely through the collecting aspect. The other thing is that any Gen parts in terms of Vintage Rolex are always going to hold their value. So if you ever get a bit stretched financially then you can always cash your chips in.

That's why i own them. A rep is a rep and ultimately is only going to be worth what the forum members deem.

Cheers  

[nlnlnlnene]

Because it's embarrassing to wear a watch with obvious visual flaws.

I don't like wearing a watch knowing that there are flaws that someone like me can spot from an arm's length.

I also never post pictures of my reps online because of these reasons.

Granted, I would never buy a Franken watch when the gen costs 3000 since the cost of building a good Franken is usually above 2000.

But for something like AP ROOs, spending 3000 to build a Franken doesn't seem totally absurd.

I haven't done it yet but I have spent 500+ on some AP reps just modding and stuff so I guess I'm only half way there.

Edited June 13, 2014 by nlnlnlnene

[GenTLe]

Thanks mates :-)

[Watchmeister]

As everyone has said generally it is a labor of love rather than common sense. Once you have made that leap of faith It is often about rep (or Franken) to gen ratio. How close to gen do you get for what cost and equally and most importantly what is the value of "closer to gen".

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Watchmeister]

I forgot to add that IMHO adding a gen crown on an otherwise rep piece does not make it a Franken for me. The most important thing for me is always the dial. That is what you see whenever you or anyone else looks at your wrist.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[droptopman]

For me, It's an emotional process not a logical one:). Even though it may start with a logical plan it can be hard to stay on budget and the desire to complete it outweighs common sense sometimes. I am in the middle of a GMT build and did a plan with a spreadsheet to maintain a budget. 6 months into this process....on second donor watch, more gen parts than originally planned and still have no idea when it will be done. In the end I believe I will really cherish it due to all the work that went into it. And at the end of the day I will have a great piece for less than half of what the gen would cost. I have had plenty of gen Rolexes but anyone can go buy a gen. This part of the hobby is all new to me as I used to just go buy watches I liked. Now I actually research them and I am learning about them and Rolex history. That is probably the coolest part of the hobby to me. Just doing the research to source correct parts has been a real educational experience for me. I still do not possess the skills, knowledge or courage to put it together yet....but that is a goal. To build my own Franken. For now I will leave it to my favorite watch smith. But I can do research and source parts:)

Sent from my droptop using telepathy.

[Nightwatch]

Hi, here´s an example why I did it - quite the other way round: first I was pushed to purchase a gen (because rep-prices now are REALLY high! The latest Blancpain FF is over 514US$!!!!! shipped to EU) and then I put another bunch of bucks into it raising the expense to over half of the value of a rep one!!!!!!!  crazy world this has become

Pics say more than words ........

so this Seiko SNZH57

became this Fifty-Five Fathoms while I learned a lot along the way which saves me money in the long run on minor tasks

For some time I´ve been looking at the 5512/5513´s to use otb and just vintagize a bit - but those crowns they come with are just too big so that has to be changed and.....I came to like gilt dials they don´t come with and......  You get the picture, it´s a lot of fun also.

Final pic of my "Franken-Seiko", maybe not gen-like but it doesn´t have to hide from the reps, it goes along quite well...

 

[Yawn]

It is also about de different, imagine weekly wristy with everyone showing their 111 and v5 divers. It becomes boring and you gotta mix it up a little.

[GenTLe]

It is also about de different, imagine weekly wristy with everyone showing their 111 and v5 divers. It becomes boring and you gotta mix it up a little.

 

Ahahah, that's a good one mate

[tomhorn]

I have pretty much moved over exclusively to building frankens for the same reasons others have posted. I enjoy picking up knowledge on the watches I want to build, and like the thrill of the chase for parts. I get a certain sense of pride from the process of getting everything to come together, and posting my build threads to help others follow my path.

 

Having said that, I was actually pondering some of the things mentioned in this topic today, after viewing two sales posts on another forum. My quandary had to do with 'overbuilding'.

 

I saw two beautiful frankens, one Daytona and one Sub that IMO were way overbuilt from a future sales standpoint. Both were probably priced reasonably for the parts that were in them, but the odds of actually selling them without breaking them apart I thought was pretty low because the prices were $5900 and $3000 respectively. There is definitely a point with every project where you can cross the line on any future sales opportunities without pulling everything apart and these two seemed to have done that. This is not only due to the franken vs gen price ratio, but also just in the actual cost itself. I know it only takes one buyer, but honestly, how many people on the various forums are going to want to invest $5900 (or even $3000) on a non gen watch? I would suspect there is even a relatively small subset of memebers that would spend that much on a gen (I do happen to be one that would pay that much for a gen). I know I would have a hard time piecing out my hard work to get the projects done. I'm sure the sellers probably feel the same.

 

With both of these, IMO there was a lot of unnecessary parts added and work done with regard to the movements (which added significant costs to each build) for both of them, and since both were closed caseback watches no one was ever going to see it.

 

My own philosophy thus far has been to try to do as good as I possibly can without breaking the (purely arbitrary) threshhold I think the watch could be reasonably sold for if I end up not liking it when I get it done. I am embarking on a v72 Rolex 6265 build right now, and I know finding a v72 movement is going to be expensive. I'm currently planning on doing things like using a DW case instead of Phong's, and I'm certainly not going to try to find a gen dial. Even by trying to build it with as low a cost as possible to get a quality finished product, I must admit I am wondering if this build is going to be pressing my luck.

 

I can see going the extra mile for a piece you are going to keep forever, or are planning on passing down. See any of UBi's builds for example, or Valty's Daytonas among others. Even so, I still think there is a point beyond which even the non-tangible benefits don't justify the build cost. Must admit I am struggling with this one now.

[sardonix]

Modding = turning a $300 rep with flaws into a $1500 rep with a few less flaws

[imajedi]

A picture says a thousand words:

[Ronin]

In order:

 

1.)  Remove tell's / flaws

 

2.)  Learning / Tikering & wasting DAYS on eBay and forums is fun ;-)

 

3.)  Improve reliability.  (Not so much true with some recent HQ reps)

[netniet]

Franken, why? For me it is enjoying the chase for parts, picking up knowledge about the watches, and getting to know some great guys who also enjoy this hobby.

When a project is completed I am really proud about the result, and wearing the watch makes me happy. 

Yes, I know I probably spend to much money on a project, but I don't care, these builds are staying with me.

 

These two I have build so far.

 

[dbane883]

Hobbies in general don't make economic sense.

Factoring in your own labour, restoring vintage cars or building genensteins will rarely fetch the time/money put into a project.

Just comes down to the pursuit of perfection which is directly correlated to your level of OCD; which tends to increase over time.

[Mendota Explorer]

For me, I view it this way - there are car collectors who enjoy building and tinkering.  They will purchase a base auto that needs a lot of restoration work or is missing many components.  Others will start literally from scratch and acquire every component, nut, and bolt individually.  During the process some stick to only vintage components from that specific era, while others will try to seek out vintage parts but may end up using aftermarket parts that were built to the exact specifications of the original vintage part.  

 

In the end, when everyone is done assembling their autos, is any one of them less of a Ford Mustang, or Model A, or Corvette Stingray than the others?  No, of course not. Can they be sold or shown in an auto show as a vintage model XYZ car?  Yes and no.  They probably can't be shown in a purist auto show, and they need to be fully disclosed as what they are and the parts list needs to be included with the auto when/if it is sold, but still there is just as much enjoyment driving it and owning it.  For all intents and purposes, it is a model XYZ car.

 

Building a vintage watch from parts is the same thing, in my opinion.  In the end, when it is all said and done, the same rules above apply with regards to full disclosure and the parts list, but if everything is either gen or built to gen specifications, then the watch is a gen watch or a genenstein.