Mini Rant - In line with Daniel's "Scammer in our midst"

[panerai153]

I have another mini rant that is in line with Daniel's Scammer scenario. It's about those people,  like this guy, who PM you that they want the watch, or part or strap. Usually there are a couple of scenarios, first after they say, I'll take it, they then want more photos from specific angles, etc. So you have to either dig out more photos or take more.All this takes time. When folks ask me for more photos, I'm glad to comply, but they have to send me their email address for additional photos. The second and frequent scenario is they PM, "I'll take it" then when you PM them back, they want to beat you down on the price!! "Can you do the deal for 300.00 USD rather than your 350.00 USD asking price. or will you send it express mail to Bulgaria, included in the sale price"? Now first off, when you PM me that you want it, that means at the stated price, and the stated conditions, which in my sales threads usually is, "Watch will be shipped USPS Priority Mail w tracking within the CONUS, sales outside the CONUS are at the actual cost of the shipping". How clear is that? So why do folks tell you they want something, and then try to change the conditions of the sale? If you want a deal, PM me and ask me if I can reduce the price, change the shipping, add and extra strap, etc. for the same asking price. I can either answer yes, or no, I can't. Simple as that. But telling me that you want the item, then try to beat me down after you tell me you want it. doesn't sit well with me at all. And when I have gone through all of these steps and we agree on a deal, and then you suddenly disappear, it infuriates me to the point that unless you come back, which I know you won't, with a good excuse, I more than likely wouldn't sell to you anyway.

 

I know that everyone who sells on our sales forums has been subjected to all of the above. It's frustrating and time consuming to have to deal with people who are "Playing". I wish we could have a list ,only viewable by VIP and above members with a list of " Disappearing time wasters". I know that there often legitimate excuses as to why someone doesn't complete a sale, but there is absolutely no excuse for someone not sitting down at their computer, tablet or phone and sending a short PM to the seller, "I'm very sorry, but something has come up and I'm not going to be able to buy your watch. GLWS and thanks for your time and effort, it's sincerely appreciated" If you take 30 seconds to PM me a message, I will understand, but if you leave me hanging,I can promise you If you come back later and want to buy something, I will not hold it for one second for you, and it isn't yours until the money is in my PayPal account.

[prdubis]

Got the same idea ten days ago...

[ceocorona]

I agree with all said.

Unfortunately buyers will continue to pull those "negotiation tactics" as long as buyers accept them.

I recently had a buyer from UK PM to buy some iPhones I had for sale. He haggled my price down. I agreed to take less then I wanted since he was buying all 3. When it comes to payment he sends a "deposit" and said he'll pay in a few days. WTF?! This was never brought up doing the negotiations and payment discussion. I should have walked away and refused his purchase. Just on principle. Being the nice guy I am I didn't and waited.

It's buyers like this that make me more selective with my sales. I am to the point where I rather not sell then deal with the sales BS.

[KB]

Happens to the dealers too, I have lost count of the number of times I have had to say "Hang on do you realise this is not m2m? You are actually trying to beat down the shop!"

 

 

Ken

[508-Fanatic]

 

 

Agreed, but here's something to lighten the mood.

[droptopman]

Love the list of disappearing time wasters idea. That would save us all some frustration. I have not been here that long and have experienced all the situations you are describing.

Not that long ago someone requested numerous pictures and about 10 pm's later I thought we had worked out a deal only to have him offer half the asking price and free shipping to EU at the very last minute on a $700 piece. Total waste of my time.

Sent from my droptop using telepathy.

[Josetann]

I think it's fine for a buyer to ask for more information and to negotiate on the price.

 

I also think it's fine for a seller to refuse both.

 

When I sell stuff (usually on Gumtree/Craigslist), I have a simple rule. First with the cash gets it. If we agree on a price, but someone else shows up with cash in hand...guess who gets it? Now, I'll make exceptions; if I'm selling a car, it's Saturday, and it'll be Monday before you can get the check from the bank, I'll gladly hold it if you give me a check for a deposit.

 

When I'm buying, I try to make sure we're at least in the same ballpark. In the previous example, if someone was selling an item for $700 and the highest I'd go was $350, I wouldn't waste their time. If they dropped it to $500, I might shoot a message to the effect of "If you drop the price again let me know, I might be interested in it." If it was listed for, say, $400, I would probably ask any questions I had. Then I'd either make an offer if it was close, or not bother if it was too far off.

 

Just what I'd do, not saying it's right or wrong.

[chris5264]

Pretty much agree with "mini rant." One of the reasons I really do not like selling. On the other hand it does make one appreciate when you do a dealwith someone "old school". I rememember on WUS I picked up a cheap Russian watch. Got it. It didn't work. I wrote a few emails to the seller and toldher it was ok I'll just eat it. She was mad, corrected my grammar and really went at me. She was so mad that I use three periods in a row sometimes, like ...In the end I've been around too long and many supported me and she sort of dug her own hole. But it was a few days of real crap that I just didn't need. There is just a lot of variation out there...That's humanity I guess. I think the trick is keeping ones own standards regardless of some of the people you might deal with from time to time.

[Mike on a bike]

Well of course I agree . The fly in ointment is that in some cultures this is the norm and is seen as normal part of a seller /buyer transaction. Now anyone who has been around the rep forums long enough should know better but well as P153 and others have experienced, it happens. As I rarely sell anything I have only run across it once or twice but it was a PIA. I advise another disclaimer " open air bazaar /street vendor hagglers please do not PM me in regard".   (like we need another!)

[sneed12]

When I first came to these forums I was annoyed when people told me they didn't sell to members.

 

Now I get it. I'd much rather sell at a lower price to someone I know and trust than take a chance on selling to a brand new member.

[Aero_Dave]

Yes, I agree as well. Nothing worse than the disappearing act while you get other offers that you tell them, its OHPF.

Then by the time I give up on the 1st buyer, the 2nd or 3rd has moved on and are no longer interested. So now the

original buyer has cost me money! I had 1 guy tell me, "just give me a few hours to get home & I'll pay". Of ocurse

a few hours later, nothing. Then the next day I have another guy ready to pay. I was just about to send the 2nd buyer

my PP info, when out-of-the-blue I get an email from PP, "payment received" from the original buyer. I almost wanted

to return the funds for not only leaving me hanging, but not even asking me the next day if its still available before sending

the funds. Like you said, if something comes-up, fine I understand but it only takes 30 seconds to let me know!

 

Dave...

[fraggle42]

I've sold very little on M2M but of the stuff that I have I give the buyer a timeframe to pay the money (agreed with them), and if another potential buyer comes along I tell them that someone is on the clock to pay me for the item, and if I haven't received the money by 'xx' time I will get in touch with second person and let them know it's available and agree they have xx time to pay me. If the first person then sends the money it'll be refunded (if there's another buyer who now 'has' it.

Fairest way I can do it, and I also like to post the info in the sales thread so other buyers know exactly what the status is - I really don't like all this 'do the deal via PMs', I've got nothing to hide and it keeps other potential buyers informed if it becomes available again.

(As if anything I sell is that desirable!!)

[Guest]

The list of sketchy members would be awesome.

[Mike on a bike]

Agreed...............................

[Ezio]

Im with you pan all the way

[Legend]

Well said A. And fully agree. Though I would have to admit that when I first joined, I was guilty of the "impulse-regret" behavior pattern, and have learnt to restrain my fingers from sending PMs where my bank account is reluctant to follow.

 

I fully concur with you, and we could consider the following: 

 

1. Have a list of both dubious sellers and buyers, with short descriptions of why they are being listed. 

2. The list should be for our own reference only, and helps us identify and avoid PITA transactions. This list should not become a blacklist, but rather an awareness list, along with clear substantiated reasons 

3. To prevent frivolous or inordinate slinging of names, the list should be moderated in some way. Yes there will always be elements of subjective judgement, as in all things human. But the idea is to create awareness in members about seller/buyer behavior and help the community avoid potential pitfalls. 

4. Have a confirmed scammers list/ list of members with outstanding transaction issues with other members (payment not sent/ watch not delivered/ wrong delivery, disputes etc)

5. The list should only be seen by VIP members of course (one more reason to subscribe to VIP!)

6. We need a system to allow names to be taken off the list: We are all human and make mistakes at different times. I prefer to believe that people do try to learn to be better. We should give others some leeway while implementing measures to make the trading community a safer and more pleasant place.

 

However, above it all, I think that m2m dealers are based very largely on personal feelings and preferences, and both buyers and sellers should possess some noesis of the watch they are transacting on, and each other. Read the sales feedback, see the member history, and make your own judgement. I would be the first to admit that I have my failings as a buyer and seller both at times, but I do try to be better after each transaction.  

[Mike on a bike]

Legend my friend you have no idea how subjective this let us say "black list" would become and it would become one despite best intentions. For better or worse most have just the tip of the iceberg in regard to unrealistic expectations of both buyers and sellers, my PM box is full of them. Please just let it be and trust me the risk we all take is better than the alternative. I will not try to delude into thinking I can keep us all safe but the alternative is even more unpalatable.

 

Read below, my sig.:

[Legend]

Legend my friend you have no idea how subjective this let us say "black list" would become and it would become one despite best intentions. For better or worse most have just the tip of the iceberg in regard to unrealistic expectations of both buyers and sellers, my PM box is full of them. Please just let it be and trust me the risk we all take is better than the alternative. I will not try to delude into thinking I can keep us all safe but the alternative is even more unpalatable.

 

Read below, my sig.:

My friend, yes I understand that "the list" would be a subjective and highly contentious issue, perhaps not possible to be put into practice at all.

And yes, how could we ever forget that we have the faithful RWG crew members like you to clamor to when the going gets tough

 

I guess "the list" has always existed in fragments in PMs, and in our own judgement.

[martijnp]

I agree with you. Had the same little problems, putting a watch on hold and then the excuses come..

[danielv2000]

You all know where I stand! I now understand why some members never sell anything and prefer the private trading that goes on behind the scenes.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[panerai153]

Mike, when I talked about a "disappearing buyers list" it was spoken more out of frustration, and "pipe dream" thoughts. I agree that these are the sort of things that would be difficult if not impossible to manage, and could create a problem for innocent folks that get caught up in a deal with a dissatisfied buyer with a vindictive streak!!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fraggle42]

I disagree that a list would turn into a nightmare of subjective mis-opinions.

 

One simply has to make sure that it contains just facts. Facts are objective, imply nothing and leave any subjective "reading between the non-existent lines" to the reader, who, if they have a downer on a particular buyer/seller would come to exactly the same conclusions as if the list didn't exist.

 

It is very easy to unwittingly enter an emotional slant onto what otherwise is a factual entry though, which we would all have to watch out for, and all accept we can do this without realising it, and be grateful and change/update it when someone else points it out to us.

[champagneinhand]

I hate selling to as so many perspective buyers. I had one guy who does drive by posting though he has no intentions of buying, asking me to crack open my watch. I was naive and did this as I was trying to be a good seller. I had stated in the OP that it was stated that the movement was Swiss. You could get a good picture of the ETA stamp under the balance wheel assembly, but in OP, I also stated to assume it was an A7750. How many times do we get watches from TD that are stated Swiss with no ETA stamp. Anyway, whenever I posted more pictures, he just kept posting, not Swiss, no ETA stamp. So Frustrating! If he knew gen watch trade, he should know that even the priciest watches sold at AD in Duty Free or grey market stores usually have gen watches assembled in Asia. Swiss law is enforced in many places, but Duty Free, Grey market and many countries don't require assembly in Switzerland. Also hallmarks in a rep watch are pretty much worthless as I have a Daytona with an 18k hallmark that is clearly SS and sold by TD as such. The Gen is a platinum only piece.

So bad buyers that stall sales, make a need for re-listing, bad sellers that stiff people and those that believe themselves to be the all-knowing police force of all sales threads get to me. Probably because I rarely sell anything, but these things hurt everybody. Most people sell because the need funding for..... We try to take the best photos we can. I think asking to open a case back when it's stated that assumption that as a rep, not a Franken, it probably has a movement assembled in Asia. Not to mention, I had to relubricate and waterproof with the silicone on O-ring and then the thicker Seiko silicone on the threads.

Bad members with malice on the sales threads are bad. Moderators and the forum administrators have put up rules, forms and stickies. This thread had helped me, as I will send extra pictures through messages and emails. As a buyer I send all funds with PP. If I say I will buy it, I send funds ASAP via PP. From now on as a seller I will require first come first served and sales price is only negotiable through PM, unless I post a price drop. I try to price fairly as most of my reps have mods and very good straps. Thanks for putting this thread up. I don't post enough on RWG. I'm liking this site more and more.

[automatico]

This is OT but I have never seen a genuine ETA 28xx made in the last 25 years without a trademark. I have seen outright fake Asian etaclone 28xx with the ETA shield and have owned a few claimed to be swiss that were not. Also seen Asian etaclones with no trademarks at all, 28xx and 7750. Seen quite a few older swiss 7750 with the Valjoux 'R' instead of the ETA shield. Seen a few Asian 7750 with the ETA shield. Never saw a swiss 7750 without a trademark.

[prdubis]

Just can't stand this kind of behaviour either. A long time member made me an offer with a lower price than asked for an item I've listed for sale a few days ago, I agreed, and now no more answer...

V., i think you will recognize who I am talking about...