automatico

"Have you considered using another dial? The print of the Yuki dial pictured is pretty poor. I think even most standard rep dials today might be a better option, let alone 1 from 1 of the better franken parts sellers." Yeah, it is not too hot. The one for my AK 5501with yellow letters is a little bit better. "Also, will you be removing the corrosion on the metal before finishing? It looks like mostly surface rust that could easily be removed." The corrosion/rust is gone. What you see is the brass base metal of the main plate showing through heavily damaged rhodium plating. The rust was removed by soaking in white vinegar plus two trips through an ultrasonic cleaning machine. This is about as good as it going to get. Polishing the damaged areas with Simichrome polish etc. would make it look better but I skipped it because it would remove more plating. Here is the other 5500 'explorer' dial, it might be a little bit better: Close up, it is really no better: These AK 'explorer' dials were $110 each with hands including shipping in 2014/15. The other dial with goldtone letters is a little bit better, but it looks a lot better at a distance of 12 to 18 inches: Since these are project watches made out of miscellaneous parts, I guess I'll go with these dials and not spend any more $$ on them. The original dial on the 5501 AK has been badly refinished and dented so the Yuki dial will be an improvement. The rough original dial/hands will be included when it sells to help the deal a little bit. These '90% genuine rolex 'lost cause' projects are now numbering over 100 with 10 or more 'originals' left to finish so I am slacking off on project watches a bit. Hopefully these projects will be Ok along with 'full disclosure' as long as no one is too picky. Q...What is left? A...Two 16xx DJ, one (? ref number) manual wind with date, one 1675 GMT, two 5500 AK, one 5501 AK, one 1500 OPD with a 'blistered' movement, two 6422 (iirc ref number) manual wind no dates plus a few others. 'Blistered' = movement discolored by harsh cleaning solvents. I am beginning to see piles of shucked oysters in my sleep. Ha! Update later in the day: I found another yellow letter Yuki 'explorer' dial with a matte finish in my box of dials. The one above has a glossy finish. The matte dial with yellow letters is about the same quality as any matte dial with white letters in this thread. All are from 2014/15.

The first one was completed quite a while back and I had enough parts for another one so here is where it stands. Here is the first one with a cal 1560 and Yuki dial... Basic 1570 non hack from the mid 1960s for the second one shown below. It came out of an old DJ that got water in it and was put away wet. The stem was rusted solid in the main plate and a lot of screws etc. were rusty, plus it needed a balance staff, set bridge, rotor axle, mainspring etc. It had been c/o a while back as it was in my 'shortcut 1655'...so it runs just fine, exactly the same movement minus the 24 hour parts. Had to put a new minute wheel post in it though because the minute wheel from the aftmkt 24 hour conversion had an arbor on it that turned in the movement where the minute wheel post used to be...long story. Quite a bit of the plating was damaged by water but it does not make one bit of difference in the way it runs. The case is from early 1964 and is in very good condition with just a tiny bit of corrosion on the gasket area of the case. Put a new case tube in it today and it turned out to be a real hassle...not the first case tube hassle btw. It was an old style nickel silver tube that had been cemented and tightened to the max. It's a wonder it did not break off when it was installed...so it waited until I was removing it. Broached most of the remaining tube down to the case threads and of course it cut a lot more on one side and not much on the other side of the remaining tube. Had to file what I could away, being careful not to damage the threads, but it still left about half of the threads in the tube but there was enough of the threaded hole toward the outside of the case to start a case tube tap so I finally got it cleaned up and a new case tube back in the case. That is where it stands today, next will be to put the crystal on the case, dial/hands on the movement, and a few other parts plus the auto wind assembly to finish it. The bezel on the case is from a 34mm Raffles 'toot' case and hopefully it will work on a 25-12 size crystal. I may end up making one but would rather not. I'll post again when I get more done. Damaged plating on the brass main plate... Might replace the detent screw (top outer screw on right side pic) it works Ok but it looks bad. Funny how the plating was damaged on the main plate, but the plated bridges were all Ok. 2-17-2023 I was looking at the first '1002 explorer' just now. It is a 1003. Ratty set of letters, but original.

"Returning to the primary topic of additional shipping costs, I believe that globalization has increased the business of shipping companies ... and as with everything, the more demand increases and the more we get to exaggerated costs (often even higher than the value same as the goods)." I agree. Example: A week ago, I sent a small (approximately 140 or 150mm square by 8mm thick) envelope containing a watch dial to Australia. The dial was placed between two sheets of thin cardboard placed inside a paper envelope, then inside a padded plastic shipping bag, and heavily taped all around. Weight was probably 75 to 90 grams, and the shipping cost was less than $20USD. Instead of blowing close to $200 on a dial (counting a hand set), I paid $200USD for a Hamilton Ball 999B Railroad Approved pocket watch today in very good condition, except the dial is not great. They are going for $700 to $1200 plus/minus on eBay so I came out OK. Shipping was Free! It was a hand to hand deal. Ha!

"But frankly I'm not sure I have the best. What do you think?" In my experience, the same model of dial from the same vendor, even in the same order, can vary quite a bit. I have some very good Yuki 1680 dials, about as good as any and as I said, I have two that are not up to their usual standard. I'll use them in an ETA project with a lowball case maybe. Maybe not. My two Yuki 'AK Explorer' dials are as good as any 'refinished dials' I have seen and that is why I was going to order another one. One of mine has goldtone letters to be used in a tutone AK 5501 and the other is to be put in an old AK with a rough silver dial, and I need one more for a 1964 1002 OP with 1570. Luckily, I found a pretty good original AK dial in my parts after I started this thread to put in the old AK. Many old AK 5500 watches have ratty dials and a Yuki dial used to be cheaper than getting the original refinished counting shipping etc. Besides that, most of the legit refinished dials on original blanks are not close to being as good as a Yuki dial. Raffles dials are Ok too but the dial feet are for 'A21' and ETA movements and I need them to fit a rlx 15xx. On top of that, some Raffles dials are made for the cases they have for sale, not oem spec. I've had trouble with cases too. My DW '5512/13' cases are made for 26.5mm dials, not 26.0mm like original, and a 26.0mm dial just barely hangs in the case. This is a headache so I bought a couple MBK 5512/13 watches that are made for 26.0mm dials and they worked fine. But there was a catch. The catch was...my MBK 1680 cases are made for 26.0mm dials too! Because of this, I had to stick one of the DW '1680' cases in a lathe and recut the dial window to work with a 26.5mm '1680' dial. It's always something, and it never ends.

"It is becoming unsustainable .... by now even buying from abroad on Ebay involves paying tax after tax, which in my opinion is unjustified." True! If I did not already have most of the parts, I could no longer afford this 'hobby'. One dial question stands out: Why are Raffles dials one third to one tenth the price of other dials and 90% (or more) as good?

Was going to buy another Air King 'explorer' dial from Yuki. Have one but have two projects going. Bought 12 or 15 dials with free delivery including hands in the past. Picked one out for $106 (no hands) and went to the order section. Shipping is $48 USD!! No more Yuki Dials For Me! Ever. 1-25-23 Proof I have purchased Yuki dials before. Most are Yuki along with IG44, MBK etc: About half the compartments have two dials in them. Two 'Red' 1680 IG44 dials, '1016' dials from unknown supplier in 2008 etc. + one Yuki '1016' dial not shown. Toot dial is genuine but don't know what model it fits...25.5mm in diameter for ETA 28xx. Yuki '5513' center, J$Wcom '1655' dial on right for never ending project. Two Yuki '1680' dials top left, the printing looks like ////////////////////////////// when highly magnified, not solid lines, only two dials were like this from 5 or 6 years ago. Only the two '1680' dials were not up to par, all the other Yuki dials are very good. IG44 'Red' dials top right...best of all.

1-21-23 The notes below in italics were taken from a note I sent to a fellow RWG member concerning the 'shortcut 1655' project. I took the movement out of the cartel '1655' case a while back and took it apart to install a minute wheel post aka 'stud' to turn it back into a regular 1575 date movement. The original minute wheel post had to be removed during the 24 hour conversion because the conversion has a slightly smaller outside diameter minute wheel post with the minute wheel and 24 hour drive wheel mounted on top and it all turns in the main plate as one piece. The OD of the conversion min wheel post is slightly smaller than the oem (pressed in) post to allow it to turn in the main plate. This particular movement (mid 1960s non hack) came with a brass bushing inside the minute wheel post hole in the main plate. Q... Why is there a bushing in the main plate? A...No idea but most 15xx movements do not have the bushing. I had to press another minute wheel post in the main plate so I could use a regular oem minute wheel made to turn on the pressed in post when going back to a 12 hour date movement. "I had to put another minute wheel post in the seemingly never ending 1575 project from the shortcut '1655'. The first post I machined turned out to be too loose in the main plate so I had to cut another one and press it in. The loose post was .49mm in diameter and the new one was .52mm and it is tight. I used a piece of a drill bit for the new one by cutting a section off below the flutes, slightly tapering the end where it starts into the main plate. I used the minute wheel for a guide to keep the post 90 degrees to the main plate and pressed the post into the plate with the lever on an 'Inverto' staking tool. This movement has a tiny brass bushing (noted above) making the job a bit touchy. If the post is too small, it will be loose, if it is too big, it can push the bushing out when pressing the post in. Luckily the new post went in with no trouble. The first minute wheel post turned out to be loose because I was being careful not to push the bushing out. It was stainless steel (relatively soft), the second one is harder tool steel. 'Inverto' staking tool = the staking tool punches will also mount in the base of the tool, not just in the top where they can be tapped or pushed with a lever. This in effect allows the punches to do double duty as 'stumps' or 'punches'. 'Stumps = cups, stands, sharp cones etc. that are mounted in the tool base. The base has a turntable that can be locked in place for precision work. Staking tool set like mine except this one has the push lever on top removed: What I can't figure out is why some of the 15xx main plates have brass bushings because all the movements I've seen have the same size post pressed in the plate and all the minute wheels are hollow and run on the post. Some of my 15xx movements do not have a bushing but they have the same 7888-1 minute wheel post. Besides that, there is only one minute wheel part number (7888) and one minute wheel post aka 'stud' (P/N 7888-1) in the 'official' rlx parts list. I ordered a genuine post (7888-1) for this project but it was a lot bigger about half-way down and the plate would have to be drilled out to use it. Maybe it was the wrong part? Who knows?" I am going to get some date wheel spacer 'shims' made out of Mylar decal material to space the original DW 'calendar ring' up about .1mm to move the date wheel away from the 24 hour wheel on my next 'shortcut' GMT project. 'Date wheel spacer' = generic term for 15xx metal calendar rings that come in thick (GMT), regular (12 hour), or with sides that drop off for 'pie pan' dials on 16xx DJ. Submariners, OPD use the regular calendar rings. GMT rings are about .1mm thicker, now hard to find and high $$. Q...Why is a thicker spacer needed for a GMT? A1...Because the 24 H wheel makes the movement slightly taller and the hour and minute wheels can be too close to the dial. A2...GMT canon pinion and hour wheels are also slightly taller than DJ/OPD parts. I will post a note on how it turns out but it may be a month or longer. This whole story pertaining to the 'shortcut 1655' project was posted as a guide (or warning) to anyone who wants to install one of these 'shortcut' 24 hour kits in a rolex 15xx movement. If you do decide to install one, try to find a kit with the 24 hour drive gear mounted to the minute wheel and uses the original minute wheel post that comes in the movement. I have seen a few in pictures so they are available but I could never locate a supplier.

Thanks for the link! I watched the video and the closeup of the pushers shows they are not very well finished at all. The bezel looks good though. I guess all is forgiven because: "It was for charity." Not if I paid $6.5M for it. Some info on this 'Mystery Daytona' from another post: A Deep Fried Mystery with a half order of Scam on the side... - The Rolex Area - RWG

"The years have taken their toll." You got that right! Ha! Maybe leave the Ha! out. Ha!

"Today, for better or worse, the games appear to have gone away, but as was predicted, so has the membership." Agree. It seems like 12 or 15 'hardcore' members are active and a few others hit the site maybe once a week or less. This is the third replica watch forum I have been a regular on. Number 1 was RWCC = Replica Watch Collector Club in the 1990s from the beginning until the end. Number 2 was TRC from the beginning until the end. Number 3 is this one 5-16-07 as Jimmythree and 7-16-08 as automatico after a server meltdown until... I was on a few genuine watch forums in the 1990s/early 2000s but many of the members seemed have a sense of humor deficit. The word 'straitlaced' comes to mind. They can own a 'pristine' vintage Porsche 356 with 60% aftmkt parts and be just fine with it, but a replica or F-stein watch is absolutely verboten! I started out on genuine watches in the 1970s and staggered into replicas as a lower $$ alternative sometime in the 1980s. Tripped and fell into 'better replicas' (classic misnomer) in the early 2000s when rlx parts started getting harder to get. Then RWC cut our parts account off so I 'Buried the Crown'. Back in the 1970s, many replica DJ, subs etc were quartz powered with pot metal cases, watch junque. Still have a few replicas from the 1960s, a goldtone replica 'Longnines' and couple faux chronographs (names forgotten), plus a Seiko from the 1970s. All have one jewel pin lever movements and pot metal cases. If I ever attend a watchsnobfest, I'll wear the Longnines on a crocodile strap. Porsche 356 Replica Market - CLASSIC.COM

Mine is a '1016' that has an ETA 2824/2846 'combo' movement. It has 2824 plates etc. with 2846 escapement, center wheel, cp etc. This dial/movement was in a JMB case for a while and now it is in a genuine rolex 162xx case. Q...Why is it The Best? A...Because it keeps good time and has a long reserve, about the same as the average high mileage 15xx rolex movement. Second best is a MBK '5512' with nos ETA 2879. Third was a 'shortcut 1655' with rlx 1575 but it is in pieces now. That's it. Nothing else stands out. JMB '1016' project update... - The Rolex Area - RWG Building an MBW Sub + 'shortcut' rlx 1560/70 GMT conversions... - Page 2 - The Rolex Area - RWG What is/was yours?

"Anyone ever service a Gen cal 3000 no date here?" I've done a few 3035 and they are no trouble and a 3000 would be easier because of no date works. They are a lot like an ETA 2824. Just be careful with the balance/hairspring as they are high $$ now. The 3035 has a Breguet HS and the 3000 has a flat HS. Rolex Caliber 3000 Watch Movement | Caliber Corner 【Assembling Watch Movement#24】ROLEX Cal.3000 Assembly｜Watch Repair & Overhaul - YouTube

"Do 31xx movements install the same way as 15xx movements? Drop in the grooves and Turn the movement and LOOSEN (raise) the case screw to lock it into the case?" Yes, on genuine 160xx/150xx and 160xx/162xx cases with genuine movements. You might need a certain type of casing screw though. Some will need screws with thick outer edges, others may need thinner outer edges, while a few will need knife edge screw heads. This will depend on the combined dial and movement thickness plus how close the case screw groove in the case is to matching up with the screw head outer edge. The rolex method is a good one but I have found a few movements loose in the case where the screws came loose. Case clamps and screws usually stay tight, but the clamps can lose tension and/or the screw can come loose. Projects using genuine 150xx/160xx and 152xx/162xx cases with ETA etc. movements usually end up using case clamps with screws. I have not worked on anything made since the late 1990s/early 2000s, the latest being 14010M Air Kings with sapphire crystals, sheet metal hoods, and hollow mid link bracelets. I removed the case backs to get the movement serial numbers but do not remember how the movements were 'bolted down'. Never owned anything with a rolex clone movement...aka 'clorex'. Notes: The non certified cal 3130 movements in the 14000M/14010M sapphire crystal AKs have serial numbers, unlike earlier four digit 15xx powered acrylic crystal AKs. The letter M = 3130 movement in place of cal 3000 (14000 = cal 3000, 14000M = cal 3130). Imho, go with the 3130 if possible on AK, ND Subs etc in 'semi vintage' sapphire crystal models. The 3130 is basically a no date 3135. I don't know much about the 32xx movements, but it looks like there has been a bit of trouble with them keeping chronometer time and some had rotor bearing trouble.

A few thoughts from a 'vintage guy' who does not know much about sapphire rolex watches (or anything else). Good choice, projects without a date are a LOT less hassle. The first few years of the sapphire Explorer had holes in the lugs and my guess is the holes were the same size as DJ cases of the same era. Anyone know for sure which spring bars were used? I have not touched one in 15 or 20 years and did not pay attention when I did. A watch with holes in the lugs definitely needs a bracelet with hollow mid links imho. Otoh, solid mid links might not be as obvious on a watch with blind lug holes. A 14270 with lug holes also needs a dial with T<25 at the bottom for sure, not 'swiss made'. There were 'blackout' dials on some early Exp making them go for more $$ but I have not seen any on replicas. It would make the watch stand out though. Shedding Light on the Rolex "Blackout" Explorer 14270 - Bob's Watches (bobswatches.com) I've owned about a half dozen assorted 14270 replicas and two or three had markers fall off the dial, so it might be a good idea to put a tiny drop of cement over the marker feet on the back side of the dial. Be very careful if superglue is used because it will travel to the front side of the dial. Maybe use G-S Hypo cement etc. Or just let it go until a marker falls off like I do. Use a metal (usually brass) movement spacer and steel case clamps with screws if possible...no plastic spacers. Btw...I have had good luck with Raffles parts. Etc. Etc.

" I'd leave that Prince Oysterdate the way it is." Me too.

The two Explorers above look very good! Specs?

It depends on dial diameter and date offset from the dial center. Rolex date offset is about 9mm and 28xx ETA powered Tudors are about 10mm. A date wheel overlay will usually fix this. Most 34mm OPD rolex dials are about 26.9mm. Do not know about Tudors.

Thanks! I guess we will have to 'Ride and Wait' to see how this comes out.

Good story. Rolex Daytona 6265 – The “Unicorn” Frankenstein Plot – Vintage Panerai and other iconic timepieces under the loupe at Perezcope The Question...It may not be 100% original, but does that make it a Scam Sandwich? The Answer...To be decided pending full disclosure. Maybe later. Maybe never.

WatchTime 12-30-22: Editor’s Pick: The Most Memorable Watches From 2022 | WatchTime - USA's No.1 Watch Magazine The Swatch-O-mega Moonie made the list.

Stainless late 1950s/early 1960s manual wind Elgin Shockmaster 'Flying Saucer'. All USA made...movement, case, dial, hands, crown, crystal, and bracelet. C/O about 10 years back, not worn very much since then and still within 5 to 7 seconds a day. Stainless USA made 'Don Juan' clamp-on type bracelet. The watch is held on the bracelet by spring loaded arms that clamp over the spring bars and are held to the bracelet by rivets that slide in slots to allow for different watch sizes. The bracelets come in small/medium/large sizes and you bend them to adjust for a comfortable fit. The spring bar clamps come in assorted widths and can be filed down to the exact size needed. You see these bracelets on watches worn in hot, damp environments...Vietnam era military watches for example. They are also used where the watch can be quickly removed from the wrist without clasp or buckle hassles...medivac situations etc. ...or just because they are coool. Don Juan Watch Band Cuff | WatchUSeek Watch Forums

"If you have your heart set on a gold gen, I would either bite the bullet & go the franken route -- beginning with a gen case/dial -- & fill in the blanks with aftermarket parts or use a stainless steel case that accepts the correct dial & have the case gold-plated by a jeweler (or diy if you have the time/funds to learn & purchase the plating supplies). Or, better still, stick to steel & 'white gold' models." Good advice. If you can go with a 34mm case, there are quite a few genuine rolex 1550 and 15505 cases for sale. They have a thin sheet of gold soldered over the case top and solid gold bezels. A fair price for one without the bezel (imho) is around $200/$250 and with a bezel, around $250 to $400 depending on condition. Be careful of heavily scratched cases or cases with base metal showing, they are not worth much. The back side of the case and case back are not gold colored, just stainless steel. If you want a 'gold' rolex to wear while you look for parts for a solid gold case etc. one of these might be a good choice. Put a 27mm Yuki Air King 'Explorer' dial or Raffles 27mm dial with yellow tinted lume etc. in it with an ETA of some sort and it would make a very nice everyday watch. Big Bonus...no date wheel overlay headaches with explorer/oys perp etc. dials. To be honest, vintage rolex prices have gone crazy (imho), even for common models and parts. I see rolex 1550 watches for sale in average condition like what I paid $600 for, now going for $3000+ in ratty condition. Matter of fact, I bought one fresh back from NYC rolex service for $600 in December 1995 and another for $150 at the local flea market in January 1996 without a bezel...complete running watches on leather straps (still have them). This shows how much these watches have gone up in the past 25 years. When comparing 34mm cases and 36mm cases...there is not much difference unless you have an arm like Popeye. Ha! Four 34mm cases on the bottom row and four 36mm cases next row up:

From my experience and disappointments: Plated cases... Imho, a 'Yellow Gold Plated Prez' just will not do if it is worn very much. Sooner or later the plating wears away and the base metal shows through. Silver shows through if it is steel or a (sometimes toxic) silver colored 'pot metal' and a goldish contrasting color shows through if the case is brass. Toxic = the 'ufo' metal breaks the skin out. I don't know what the metal really is, but it looks a lot like the metal they made automobile hood ornaments and carburetors out of in the 1950s/60s. Solid gold cases... For the reasons above, maybe start out with a 14K or 18K aftmkt case and a croc, lizard etc. strap with a gold buckle. That's what I set out to do about 15 years ago but it stalled out. Q...Why did it stall out? A...Because my aftmkt 18K case was accurate to oem on the outside but the dial window is too big for genuine spec day/date dials. It takes oem spec 36mm case crystals and case tubes but not movements or dials. It needs a 29.5 or 30mm dial and I never found one. Thought about making it into a DJ but still no dials...except for 41mm DJ dials and genuine dials cost too much. Besides that, the date window is offset farther than on a 36mm DJ so you need a date wheel overlay for 41mm DJ or a custom made dial with the date window set inside a mm or so to work with an ETA movement. I bought an oem spec aftmkt 41mmDJ dial and tried it in the case but as I said, the date window was too far from the dial center and my ETA 28xx dates would not line up, much less a regular 36mm rolex spec date wheel. Next, I tried a Bulova Precisionist/Accutron II movement with standard Prec/A II date wheel. The aftmkt DJ 41 dial was a good fit in the case but the date window in the dial did not center over the Prec/A II date. It was close but no cigar. Q...What would be needed to use the Precisionist movement and date wheel? A...A goldtone date window frame slightly larger than the date window in the DJ 41 dial with the window cut out to allow all of the Bulova date to show. Not easy to find a date window the right size, believe me. I finally found a date wheel overlay for a 41mm DJ on the 'net to fit an ETA 2836 etc. but never tried it so that is where it stands today. On another note, I have an Omega cal 565? (iirc) with the correct size dial but almost all the dial refinishers in the USA have closed up and the few that are left will only refinish a dial back to the original name on the dial...no Omegas redialed to rolex. To make matters worse...the case does not have movement mounting stands inside it like a genuine case or a groove inside the case for case clamps/screws so a spacer will have to be rigged somehow. I found a spacer from a past Marathon project that might work but have not tried it because I've not decided on a movement/dial combo yet. It mounts to the movement with case clamps and has a groove on the back side with a rubber O ring in it that presses against the case back and applies pressure to the movement/dial when the back is screwed down. The spacer has to be cut to fit and the O ring groove recut if needed. A goofy arrangement but it might work. Btw...these cases are getting expensive today, going from $1000 to $3000. Here is a pic of my case:

"If you are a Daytona fan, appreciate fine craftsmanship & can afford the (high) price tag, you owe it to yourself to get 1 of these." I agree, because they may not be around for long. Why not? Because the replica biz is always in turmoil. It appears (to me) that China's government is always jumping from 'Ban all replicas!" to appear to be against them to "Make as much replica stuff as you can!" to boost gov bribes/kickbacks etc. and keep people working. When the top tier replica makers get shut down again (sooner or later), and (IF) movement producing machinery is destroyed or confiscated...the replica makers may not come back with the 'best of the best' next time around. Or ever. Remember when a replica 16610 with a very good case/dial/bracelet and new swiss ETA 28xx was available for $250/$300? Remember when new MBW/MBK 5513/1680 etc. (many with genuine ETA 28xx) were $400+/- from 'Maria' or 'Narikka'? I do. Now they are gone forever. Regarding 'Top Shelf' Daytonas...get one while you can.