How much worth are Gens and Reps if you removed all Trademarks

[TeeJay]

If you take away the obviously higher labour rate and account for ETA's markup, the actual cost to produce would be the same. After all, the watches to go through the same basic processes. We all know the chinese cut corners however, and that our rep movements rarely come oiled or clean. That all costs money.

These are luxury items though, and you are not paying for the watch as much as you are paying for the brand and all the air racing teams, movie stars, athletes, etc. that they pay millions upon millions of dollars to endorse their products. Setting a watch price has very little to do with actual value, but much more to do with targeting an audience that has the money to pay for a perceived exclusivity.

And life has been treating me well Teej, just been a little to busy with life lately

I see what you mean there, afterall, the movement in a budget PAM is pretty much the same as the movement in the Swiss version (and possibly even the real thing) it's only when dealing with stuff like exotic hair springs that the movement can be considered to be superior to the regular version

I have to admit, I never thought of it in terms of the cost 'paying the wages' of the endorsing celebs, I wonder what percentage they get out of each sale You're quite right about the exclusivity being a perception, I recal someone once said on forum that essentially anyone with a moderately well paid job could afford a decent watch Of course, I doubt saving the McWages for a gen Sub would ease the sting of having to say "Would you like fries with that?" Thinking about it, someone who did do that would probably be called out more, because of people's misconceptions and perceptions of them/their job.

I certainly know that feeling, glad to hear life's been treating you well though

[crystalcranium]

The icons of the Swiss watch industry were saved from ending up on the scrap heap of irrelevancy from the 70s quartz revolution by re-marketing themselves as luxury items. Girard Perregaux figured out they couldn't remain financially solvent selling $75 mechanical Gyromatics to 250,000 customers annually so the repackaged themselves (as dictated by their conglomerate masters)as sellers of $10,000 watches to 2500 customers. A luxury item is never going to be worth the cost of materials and development. To a certain extent, these watches are wonders of research and engineering and light years ahead of a 21 jewel Seiko in the same way a Ferarri is superior to a Ford Taurus but are they worth every bit of the enhanced selling price? I don't think so. I don't see or detect much of a quality and performance difference between $1500 Longines chrono, a $2500 Omega chronograph and a $6500 Navitimer. Certainly with the stratosphere brands like PP, JLC and GP, you are paying for name and reputation way above and beyond the materials and engineering.

[mbjoer]

The watch market is not that different from the arts and antiques markets, and in all these original versions of clearly recognisable names commands an enormous premium. However beautifully made there is no museum which will exhibit a Picasso which is not by Picasso. And none of his paintings reach their acution price because the materials used are valuable.

Similarly a non-Rolex will never hold a long term value the way a genuine will. However well it is made, the market will always prefer the original by a wide margain.

So here is a problem with frankens and other reps: Over time they will depreciate to 0, sometimes very fast. Genuine watches however may well hold their value, and even increase over time.

The value of Reps remains that they are cheap and look expensive. So in that way they are fun at least. But whatever you spend is basically a sunk cost.

[automatico]

"it's only when dealing with stuff like exotic hair springs that the movement can be considered to be superior to the regular version."

As for relax...a regular hairspring probably costs $1 and the high grade hs with overcoil is probably $10 or less. I bought a new 'balance complete' for a 1570 a few years ago and it was a little over $100 retail. No telling how much they are now with the "No parts for you!" policy.

'balance complete' = balance wheel, hairspring, balance staff, roller etc ready to install

[Basil Ransom]

The icons of the Swiss watch industry were saved from ending up on the scrap heap of irrelevancy from the 70s quartz revolution by re-marketing themselves as luxury items. Girard Perregaux figured out they couldn't remain financially solvent selling $75 mechanical Gyromatics to 250,000 customers annually so the repackaged themselves (as dictated by their conglomerate masters)as sellers of $10,000 watches to 2500 customers.

You've got it.

These movements and jewels may be very fine indeed, but ultimately they are an excuse for buying luxury watches. They provide a reason for people to spend thousands on a watch other than, "It's Swiss and it's made of gold." Compare watches to say, luxury attire. The latter offers finer fabrics, a better fit and superior design, all of which are immediately apparent on their owner. By and large, the idea of counterfeit high end men's clothing is laughable, and non-existent. A respectable "replica" of luxury attire would incur most or all of the same costs that the genuine article does. Counterfeit luxury goods become a plausible enterprise when you're paying for something extraneous or unobservable. Or cars. Luxury cars offer superior performance, comfort, aesthetics, safety, or technology, or some combination thereof - you're still paying for the name, but there's no way around it, and you're still getting a tangible return.

Imagine if you could make some extremely elaborate device to make coffee. At each step of the process, it would have an ingenious set of mechanical wizardry shepherding the process. But the coffee it would make tasted just as good as your old coffeemaker. And, from the outside, it looked the same too. Would you pay 20 times as much for our wondrously made coffeemaker? Add in some sentimental schmaltz like "Manufactured in a Piedmontese hamlet with a storied history of brewing espresso" etc. Aside from the commodity values of the materials in genuine watches (eg gold, silver, platinum), how are timepieces different? I see no compelling reason to pay for craftsmanship from which I will not derive benefit, as opposed to a beautifully made shoe or a well-carved wardrobe.

Honestly, you aren't supposed to think about these things seriously, because then you'd realize what a sham it is. It's just something people do because it's de rigeur for their social set, and/or they want to show off they made a little mammon. Spending money is sometimes necessary to get something that looks good, but that isn't the case with watches. Most are not confident in their tastes; they need the assurance of a brand, a professional, a trend to don a watch or pair of shoes with confidence. To ably discern refinement requires an outlay of time, and some prefer the shortcut of a socially acceptable brand to discern for them.

Personally, I abhor the idea of luxury watches. I could justify spending $5000 on a bespoke suit if I had the discretionary income - I like nice things, but I'd only pay if there was no alternative. But my requirements for a watch do not call for $5000 in materials, only the few dollars or so that a replica costs plus markup. I have a very specific conception of the watch I want, and it so happens that the best looking option is a $20,000 Patek Calatrava, or a replica. I knew what I wanted long before I had even heard of Calatravas, roman numeral lettering on a white dial without a seconds hand or tick marks, something like a grandfather clock dial. I had a Seiko watch to this effect (SJB022), but the design was not optimal, and I broke it. Then again, it's different if you want a design peculiar to one or another watchmaker.

Paranetheically:

Would you propose to a woman with a cubic zirconia ring if no one would ever find out? Say you put the savings towards a future home or college funds for your children, yet to be born. You value the woman, after all, you're pledging eternal loyalty to her, and you do in fact have the money...

Edited October 20, 2010 by Basil Ransom

[josh_w]

Also when talking about the value of a watch, what about the features that you will never need. People pay $10,000 for a genuine Deep Sea Sea Dweller even though they have no intention of ever doing any saturation diving. How many helium release valves have ever released helium? Talk to the 600 or so saturation divers on the planet, how many of them can afford and wear a DSSD, and if they got one free, how many would actually wear it to work? They're all wearing Casio G-Shocks.

[Noel Fleischer]

While the costs are obviously not comparable, neither are the reps and gens in the overwhelming majority

of cases. One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far is reliability. A pretty large % of my reps have had some issues

especially with the movements breaking. Sometimes within a few weeks. I have a pretty big gen collection besides the reps

and I can say that there's NO comparison on that end. Even when a rep is visually very impressive, they usually don't work the same.

For ex. I have a modded APROO I bought from a member here. It looks almost gen (I put a OEM rubber strap on it too). The watch however

runs like [censored]- 3 min fast/day (after 4 adjustments by the watchsmith). I doubt that would be the case with the gen. Of course I wouldn't spend 20K

on a SS watch with a rubber band either!

[garethsm]

One thing that no-one seems to have mentioned is the design. Parts and labor obviously come into it, as does marketing and development, but most of us love our watches for their beauty as much as their function, and Rep makers don't design anything. They just copy someone else's inspiration.

Coming from a creative industry (I work in the movie biz) I know that the few people who rise to the top are generally true geniuses, one way or another, and they don't come cheap. That beautiful bezel on an AP Royal Oak, the crown guard on a Panerai, the hypnotic dial on an IWC: those things come down to more than just materials. And even though current designers may only be creating variations on themes most of the time, that original design, and the heritage that comes with it, is what, IMO, makes the gens so valuable.

An infinite number of monkeys given an infinite amount of time might be able to come up with Shakespeare, but even given the very best materials and skilled laborers, I'm willing to bet there isn't a factory in the world that could come up with a watch we would consider half as beautiful as the watches we would gladly pay thousands for if only we had the disposable income.

[red series 3]

A gen Sub is simply not worth the $$ price Rolex puts on the price tag. Even our reps aren't worth the price tag the dealers assign them. What we're paying for, as you say, is the brandname, the trademark, or in this specific instance, the 'skill of the forger' to create a (near) identical copy of the coveted original

I find problems with the statement that a gen sub is not worth the money rolex charges.

When i was looking at purchasing a replacement to the $50 16610LV i have worn for the past 5 years. I looked into buying another rep replacing the movement buying gen bracelets gen crowns gen tubes gen inserts. I started thinking to myself if you added a genuine movement that the cost of all these parts are more than buying the watch itself.

If you wanted to say that a solid gold or platinum rolex was not worth the money i would agree. The price they value their gold at seems obscene. I honestly think you could buy a gen 16610 and strip it and sell it as parts for more than you would have paid.

[rychastings]

I read something once that I just can't disagree with:

"Rolex: the world's most expensive $500 watch"

+1

[smc]

I have no problem with the price of most gens. 70% of the cost or more is markup after it is sold by the factory, but the same is true of most consumer items. If you buy used, the price is a lot better.

Gen parts are expensive so that people will have a difficult time creating fakes or frankens to try to sell them as gens. I have no problem with that either.

Edited January 15, 2011 by smc

[krpster]

I think this would all come down to how you define the parameters of the comparison. I would think it would have to be off the shelf mass produced to be realistic. Then you would have to label them "Vendor A" and "Vendor B" and let the blind "taste test" begin.

The first problem of course is the visual differences in quality (materials and manufacture) from gen to rep. However, these are details that I would wager only about 5% of consumers would notice. So it is difficult to say if this would have an effect on estimated value or not.

I would think the larger issue would be longevity. We all know you get the odd DOA or DAAFD (Dead After A Few Days) with reps. Here it all comes down to probability of failure. With gen it is possible but very unlikely. With the rep...who knows. Even after failure support and repair is the key. With a rep where do you take it? What to do? The gen has infrastructure, parts supply, etc. so getting support is no problem. So, while on the surface the value of both pieces may look the same, the story after a problem would likely change. I would compare this to buying a Toyota vs. a Yugo.

Next is design. Without the gen in the beginning there would be nothing to rep. So one of the two companies has to bear the burden of design and development. This can be costly. How much I suppose depends on the details of the design. But again it adds to the cost of the gen.

Some have mentioned modded versions of the reps to help level the playing field but in this case you would have to account for the costs of time and materials of the modder and the mods performed (some of which are gen parts ie: concepta IWC's) Also, this would be on a one to one or singular basis. The idea is that these need to be mass produced. If that were the case just think how many conceptas we would need to keep up with demand!?! Conversely if demand is high and there is only one concepta (which of course we know there IS only one ) his time would become very valuable. So for me this would invalidate any modded reps from the comparison.

So in the end there are many aspects that go beyond just the superficial review of appearance that add to the cost of the gen. How much this is worth....hard to say but the market has already spoken

[OI812]

I think TJ hit on the topic a bit better than anyone else here.

To me the question was...'remove all branding and lay a rep and gen down beside each other'

This means all production, advertising, delivery and after sales cost are irrelevant.

In the end the gen will still be the better watch and the one actually worth more but it will be a lot closer than the true price tags suggest.

Ken

Yep, what he said 100%..

Let's take Rolex as an example....yes they are 904, yes it's an in house movement in the latest versions (and a darn fine one), yes the fit/finish on the latest are really good (not so on the older versions), etc. etc. etc.

HOWever, I've seen some watches frankened by some guy's on here that are right up there with genuine. Plop a genuine movement in them and they would be practically INdistinguishable from genuine. (IF they are distinguishable) There was a thread running on VRF awhile back in which some of the dealers on there were warning guy's how good the frankens were getting. They listed several examples of how hard it was for them to determine if a watch was "fake"....especially with the vintage stuff they deal with a lot. IF those guy's are having a difficult time determining if a watch is genuine at times then imagine the average AD, much less their staff. To me that's the ultimate example how good SOME replicas have become today.

I can tell you this from personal experience. I've owned/own many fine watches over the years, including every SS Rolex Sport model other than the YM and Daytona, and I have SERIOUS reservations about EVER buying another. (unless it was THE "deal" of all deals ) The primary reason (other than the outlandish price tag now days) is I'd feel somewhat ripped off knowing that the Chinese can manufacture and sell a watch with comparable components for $400.00 (and turn a tidy profit) while Rolex wants 7k USA for, more or less, the same SS watch....and yes, I'm MORE than aware about 904 vs. 316, COSC, long term resale, quality of a Rolex movement, etc. etc. etc.

You could also substitute Panerai/Omega and several other brands in place of Rolex.

Edited January 16, 2011 by OI812

[OI812]

While the costs are obviously not comparable, neither are the reps and gens in the overwhelming majority

of cases. One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far is reliability. A pretty large % of my reps have had some issues

especially with the movements breaking. Sometimes within a few weeks. I have a pretty big gen collection besides the reps

and I can say that there's NO comparison on that end. Even when a rep is visually very impressive, they usually don't work the same.

For ex. I have a modded APROO I bought from a member here. It looks almost gen (I put a OEM rubber strap on it too). The watch however

runs like [censored]- 3 min fast/day (after 4 adjustments by the watchsmith). I doubt that would be the case with the gen. Of course I wouldn't spend 20K

on a SS watch with a rubber band either!

Then find a quality movement and replace the junker and your good to go for a LOT less $$$. Problem solved...

[tabularasa415]

The value is intrinsic. My best friend loves my watches (gen and rep) and he knows I collect both. He was absolutely IN LOVE with my rep PAM 156 (heavily modded) and thinks my gen 111 is "ok." One day I told him the 156 was a fake and the 111 was genuine and he started to admire my 111 more and more and immediately dismissed his affection for the 156. Why? Because he now knew which was "real" and which was "fake."

I used to feel the same way. While I appreciate the craftsmanship of the replica, it paled in comparison to my love of my gens. That is, until I started building Franken watches. What do you get when you start turning these replica watches into almost precisely what the gens are? -- a deep, resonating appreciation for your ability to beat the manufacturers and an ability to wear the watch on your wrist with all the pride (if not more than) that you would a gen.

That, my friends, as it has already been stated, is where it's at. Those of us who are the WISs know that we have created a watch that's just as good as the gen at a mere fraction of what they charge, and that makes our watch just as good, and, as far as we are concerned, us a hell of a lot smarter.

That's what I call bang for the buck!

[TeeJay]

I find problems with the statement that a gen sub is not worth the money rolex charges.

When i was looking at purchasing a replacement to the $50 16610LV i have worn for the past 5 years. I looked into buying another rep replacing the movement buying gen bracelets gen crowns gen tubes gen inserts. I started thinking to myself if you added a genuine movement that the cost of all these parts are more than buying the watch itself.

If you wanted to say that a solid gold or platinum rolex was not worth the money i would agree. The price they value their gold at seems obscene. I honestly think you could buy a gen 16610 and strip it and sell it as parts for more than you would have paid.

Apologies for the severely delayed response... Yes, it is well known that parting an item out can yield greater $$ than selling the item whole, but that was not precisely the point I was making... What I was saying, is that the word Rolex on the dial does not make a Submariner worth the price tag assigned to it. Compare to an Alpha Submariner... Even if one was fitted with an ETA movement with one of the blue anti-magnetic mainsprings, they still would not be able to sell the watch for the prices Rolex watches are sold for, simply because it (and the Rolex) are not worth such a hyper-inflated price, and the fact that a comparable Alpha could not sell for such a price, proves that the Rolex is not worth the price. As for the 'design costs' side argument, I think that Rolex have long-recouped whatever fees they paid their designer back in the day

[Ronin]

Lots of text... I'm very busy right now so I couldn't read them all fully, but I think the thing what differentiates reps and gens is not only the movement, it's everything.

...

Bracelet and SEL details, how the crown winds in/out, clasp smoothness, dial glossiness, etc. Reps can never make those things right, but these are very hardcore details. If you wanted to explain those to an outsider, he would never understand.

...

(Seiko doesn't count as it's competing in totally different league.)

In general I would like to agree with this. However, my experience owning GEN's from some of the big 5, this is not always the case. Plenty of crooked markers, lume, and finishing issues exist. See my response further down on quality... (cont)

Also, I would not discount Seiko from a "Value / Worth" discussion such as this. Seiko reliability is key to their success, and reliability and price together help form value. Grand Seiko and Spring Drive have earned their place.

...

Personally, I abhor the idea of luxury watches. I could justify spending $5000 on a bespoke suit if I had the discretionary income - I like nice things, but I'd only pay if there was no alternative. But my requirements for a watch do not call for $5000 in materials, only the few dollars or so that a replica costs plus markup

....

Would you propose to a woman with a cubic zirconia ring if no one would ever find out?

Luxury is the keyword here. I love making parallels to auto's in this respect. The old Honda/Toyota -vs- BMW/Mercedes/etc argument. Google PC -vs- Mac value sometime.

Also, by qualifying the CZ ring with no one finding out, you sort of null and void the argument. Reality is different. (cont. below in quality reply)

While the costs are obviously not comparable, neither are the reps and gens in the overwhelming majority

of cases. One thing I haven't seen mentioned so far is reliability. A pretty large % of my reps have had some issues

especially with the movements breaking. Sometimes within a few weeks. I have a pretty big gen collection besides the reps

and I can say that there's NO comparison on that end. Even when a rep is visually very impressive, they usually don't work the same.

For ex. I have a modded APROO I bought from a member here. It looks almost gen (I put a OEM rubber strap on it too). The watch however

runs like [censored]- 3 min fast/day (after 4 adjustments by the watchsmith). I doubt that would be the case with the gen. Of course I wouldn't spend 20K

on a SS watch with a rubber band either!

I have to disagree, somewhat, with this. Back to cars, you will also see that Ferrari, Jaguar, etc, tend to be in the shop disproportionally to your standard auto. This is not that different to a precisely engineered watch. Building a COSC watch, perpetual calendar, etc, often requires precision that if not maintained 'more diligently' can fail more often. More complications, more failures.

I own/have owned GEN watches from Rolex, Breitling, Omega, Ebel, Tutima, Ball all with list prices in the $5000 neighborhood. Guess what. 80% of my GENs have developed problems (thankfully while under warranty) that required shipped back to their respective service centers. This is usually a MINUIMUM 2 Month process. Patek and Breguet may take over a YEAR! So not unlike the Ferrari that goes into the shop, and a part needs to come from Italy, it is very much the same. Maybe I have bad luck. Every time I have been to my favorite AD, there are people in line at the Service desk dropping off their broken expensive timepieces. This ~might~ be a more recent phenomenon, but I think some of this has to do with the more automated assembly as well, and lack of QC.

Statistically, I have had close to 100 Reps, many based on Miyota 8215s (aka DG/Asian 21J's) pass thru my hands. Out of 100 the problem rate is a low 10% or 10 in 100. Most of the problem REPs were A7750's, which are "more complicated" to begin with, or old re-purposed ETAs that were dry or gummed up. While I have had 21J's with the 21J stutter, and less then perfect time keeping, I have never had a straight up dead or early failure of a 21J. In fact my, Japanese Miyota 8215 powered Submariner from 1995 kept great time and will still run if I pull it out of retirement.

As usual YMMV...

[benk]

i think the margin is interesting. i wonder how much the gens would be if they weren't all in a cartel. i.e if they felt the need to compete on price. my feeling is that most gens could be reduced in price by 60%+ and still run at a profit. this would stunt growth r&d, etc, unless sales went up accordingly.

with reps going up in price i'm thinking that the same pretty much applies.

[andreas-rep]

Sorry guys but you are forgetting some of the fundamentals of running a business here.

The watch price is calculated on all costs the company incur in producing it. Including manufacturing, (and aslo marketing advertising etc. Staff wages, office space etc.) You cannot pick and choose which costs you are going to leave out in your evaluation as they are each as important as eachother. You can't compare on costs of raw materials because without the machines, staff, processes and management your evaluation of the raw materials cost should be $0 as it comes from the earth like everything else, so is basically free.

I saw a post on this on another forum that puts what I am trying to say more eloquently, see below.

"I am sure that the costs are quite high actually. If you have seen the videos on Rolex.com most of the machinery seen in those videos are "one-of" applications costing tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure. Every bit of that will factor into the base cost of every watch. 

That doesn't even touch the talent and manpower they employ full time.

Combine that with the 14 months it takes to manufacture a movement, and I think most Rolex's should cost more.

P.S. It costs Rolex more on the outlay to make a steel watch than a gold one. When 904L was first proposed inside the company, the technology for the massive 250 ton press used to stamp out the Oyster cases did not even exist and needed to be made from scratch! This is why most manufactures do not use 904L. 

As quoted from the Rolex USA product training manual;

"All Rolex movements are completely manufactured in-house and have an average value of several thousand dollars. Rolex continually compares each part produced with a "perfect" computer generated image of that part. Each movement takes 14 months to produce. Over 200 technicians will work on the movement effectively combining "High Tech" with "High Touch"."

"

I think it's really sad the slating rolex is getting in this thread. Why on earth would you buy a rep rolex if you wouldn't buy a gen. I am not being impolite or trying to start a flame war or whatever , that just doesn't compute in my brain. If you don't like Rolex then just do as you say and remove the trademarking off your rep. Still a very nice functional timepiece and you are now bein true to yourself.

[lhooq]

"I am sure that the costs are quite high actually. If you have seen the videos on Rolex.com most of the machinery seen in those videos are "one-of" applications costing tens of millions of dollars in infrastructure. Every bit of that will factor into the base cost of every watch.

That doesn't even touch the talent and manpower they employ full time.

Combine that with the 14 months it takes to manufacture a movement, and I think most Rolex's should cost more.

Also, I need to pay more taxes. The government has been so good to me.

[praetor]

Rolex's innovations with the 904L steel are mainly dealing with case parts and it's really unnecessary IMO. Just look at old vintage oysters that has little corrosion and pitting under proper care.

The "It takes a year to make a Rolex" has been their advertising slogan since the 1950s. With all these technological advances, they've managed to increase the time it takes to make a movement to a mere 14 months with more automation and robots. The finishing of their movements are automated, which negates any effect of it being "in house". Collectors who care about watch movements prefer movements that are finished by hand, i.e. things which robots cannot replicate. The basic design of a watch movement hasn't changed much in the past 50 years anyways so the "in house" branding is just really a marketing scheme. And I know for sure that it takes less than 14 months for Philippe Dufour to manufacture a movement from scratch. That's why it makes more sense to go with Rolex frankens rather than going for gens.

[Dave123]

Wow,what a long load of wind for something so basic.

Of course these watches (gen) are not worth what they sell for,that has nothing to do with it,or why some of us want to buy reps of them.

I'm going to ask my wife if her bags are worth the thousands they cost,of course not.

[automatico]

"I was just curious how high the difference is between Gens and Reps, if they all had no Trademark on it. Meaning i would like to compare just the Materials, Movement Quality, etc."

"Are there huge differences between Gens and Reps? (Is a Gen PAM worth that much more than a Rep if these two watches were from a NoName supplier - What about other Reps)?"

"Is the GEN Price really justified? Or are even the Reps overcharges."

All imho...

A genuine watch IS overpriced at list price if none or very few will sell at list price while the exact same watch will sell in quantity for 20%, 30%, 40% etc less than list price.

Example...try to sell an Invicta at list price. They will fly at 70% or 80% off though.

A watch is not overpriced if the entire production or most of it will sell at list price. Some buyers will pay list price for a watch and others will not buy without a discount, that's just the way it is.

Some buyers believe list price is Ok because it makes the item seem to be more valuable (to them) while others will not pay list price because the watch is not worth as much as list price (to them).

I remember reading on one of the genuine watch forums a few years ago about a guy who had his mind set to buy an omega smp and had found one at an AD for $1700 or so. He was going to buy it the next day.

That evening he and his wife went to Costco and while the wife was shopping for groceries, the guy went to look at watches and found a new in box omega smp for $1350.

Which one did he buy?

The one for $1700 because he said the lower price at Cosco tarnished his image of the smp because to him it was a $1700 watch. I laughed out loud because the minute he sized the bracelet and put the watch on...he then owned a $1000 watch no matter how much he paid.

As for me, I would not pay over 15 to 20 cents on the list price dollar for any new in box (rolex) watch unless I could sell or part it out for a profit. That's about all they are worth to me if I had to own one.

I knew an AD and could get just about any new rolex for cost (except Daytonas) as long as I promised not to flip it. In 20 years, the only one I bought at cost was a sapphire GMT II. I never wore it but sold it about 12 years later and bought a 'real' gmt...1675.

"To me the question was...'remove all branding and lay a rep and gen down beside each other'

This means all production, advertising, delivery and after sales cost are irrelevant."

I believe the cheaper unmarked replica watch would outsell the higher price unmarked genuine watch by a large margin until the reputation of the replica was ruined by poor QC, WR, reliability, no service, warranty etc.

　

My BS detector just went off...

　

"Yes ... a Rolex Movement is Better (more Jewels) than an ETA one, so the Rollie will be worth more."

Watch jewels can be purchased in bulk assortments for $10 to $20 a gross (144).

　

"Combine that with the 14 months it takes to manufacture a movement, and I think most Rolex's should cost more."

It might take 14 months to design a movement along with all the various assembly machines from scratch but after all the tools, robots, parts etc are in place, I would guess it is closer to a few hours to 'manufacture' a movement. I've seen the videos. After all, their watch movements are nothing new...they have been making the same thing (with a few 'improvements') for 50+ years.

The auto Daytona probably did take a little longer but it had more parts...Ha!

　

"It costs Rolex more on the outlay to make a steel watch than a gold one. When 904L was first proposed inside the company, the technology for the massive 250 ton press used to stamp out the Oyster cases did not even exist and needed to be made from scratch! This is why most manufactures do not use 904L."

This would be true only if 904L cost more than 18k gold.

904L compared to 316L:

904L...

Tensile Strength (MPa) minimum...490

Yield Strength 0.2% Proof (MPa) min...220

Rockwell B (HR ...70 to 90

316L...

Tensile Strength (MPa) min...485

Yield Strength 0.2% Proof (MPa) min...170

Rockwell B (HR max...95

So...904L is almost the same stuff as 316L.

　

"It takes a year to make a Rolex."

"There's a Rolex owner born every minute."

[txcollector]

like many said, simple business math: cost of goods and services + profit = final price.

The costs involved are many, going from ongoing permanent costs (facilities, staff, machines, maintenance, etc.), to R&D, marketing, managing distribution, supply chain etc.

Variable costs include taxes, quality check rejects, commissions, COSC, advertisement, warranty services, overstock, etc.

The cost of goods (parts, assembly services, shipping, etc.) would probably account for 30% of less of the final price with 15-20% profit, if they are lucky. That's normal with all manufactured goods.

so no, I don't think you are being ripped off with most high end gens. Of course with individual models models like the PAM111 or 005 their cost is significantly lower but with other models the cost may probably be higher than 30%.

Reps don't have the same functionality, QC and materials as the gens. So it's hard to compare final cost.

[automatico]

I tried to make a few corrections...spacing etc but could not. Since there is no preview feature, typos can not be seen before they are posted.

HR should be HR B, a hardness spec. I do not know why it showed up as HR .