Recent build disputes/valuation questions

[Mike on a bike]

 I will try to explain our position on above matter.

High end builds are a touchy thing and I have done my due diligence. Having spoken to most of our Rolex modders I have found  there are parts Rolex will sell unrestricted and those they do not, restricted. (some of you may know this but others may not so ....) Some have sources for them low and others have paid more this is due to access , if you can get from Rolex direct or have a supplier who does sell to you with a reasonable markup you get them on the cheap others have much paid more. I also have been on the phone with some heavy builders and they have paid prices on the high and low but in truth could not recall what the hell they paid on everything , I find that reasonable if you have 5 or 6 you've done as in this case. (I would not know beyond a doubt) I know I know write it down but some are not as organized as others so crap happens. This being said our habit of asking for breakdowns is a good thing but let's also look at the what the watch is worth overall not cherry pick a part or two you may be able to get cheaper. (did they who knows) Now it has been postulated that some always price on the high side and list their parts on the high end of what they cost in this we have decided to let the market do the work. Look you got no business buying a build for 2 to 5 k if you do not know your stuff and if you do not you ask around and research, your job as buyer not ours as mods. Now if a guy posted a TC with a gen insert and crystal for 2 k we would crush it but with laundry list of parts: phong this yuki that gen this that we can not get into it to many maybe's involved to make a definitive call. Now feel free to post in a thread if you think a bit high on something but let's not start a row you will never know what they paid and neither will we on parts, so keep it short and sweet.

  To expand further I have always felt that just sourcing all these parts and getting them put together right has a value all it's own, how many times have I seen guys post I bought this for 3-5 hundred but doesn't fit, how do you price that in. (we don't ) So look at the break down but also look at the watch in total in regard to price and more importantly is it worth that to you.

[kernow]

Well said Mike. It is truly a minefield out there. Buyers should make their own mind up as to what it is worth to THEM. 

[SSTEEL]

Agreed, it sure is a risky business too.  When I super frankened my Carrera, the costs far outweighed the cost of a used gen, but for me it was a passionate build, now owned by @thegrail  I keep asking him to sell it back to me as when I sold it I was in a bad place back then, my circumstances have changed since.

[mymanmatt]

Very well put Mike. One example, 2 years ago my AD had 3 116610 dials. They cost $450. Today he has none. It's not what it's worth, it's what will it take to buy it? Dial may be worth $450, but maybe the only one you can find is $700. Does that make those dials worth $700?  Yes, yes it does. That's the market

[automatico]

I have put quite a few Frankenstein 5512/13/1680 together along with an mostly completed 1655 and can give an approximate total of what they cost me.

The 5513s made with DW cases, ST bezel kits, GS crystals, TC tube/crown or ST tube/TC crown with Yuki dial/hands or ST hands and genuine 1520 or 1570 ended up at $1400 to $2000 in parts.  The movements are c/o with new mainsprings and anything else they need.  If the movement needs many parts at all  it will jack the price very quickly.  Of course my labor is free to me and this includes the time and headache of making thin spacers out of aluminum flat washers to go between the dials and cases because DW cases are made for 26.5mm dials.  The one DW 5513 that came in around $1400 was lower because I got the movement for $600.  Most raw 1520/1570/1575 movements cost $900 to $1100 now unless I stumble on a rough watch at a low price.  Also made up a couple DW 1680 and they both came in around $2000.  If I sold one for $2000 there would probably be a loss on the next one (using the $2000 to pay for it) because of ever rising prices and less choice in cases.

Same watch with a MBK case will cost $200 to $300 more and may or may not use an ST bezel kit but will have a GS crystal and TC tube/crown or ST tube/TC crown.  You never know how the MBK bezel parts will match up after changing the crystal and most of the time I use a ST kit.  Before it is over they usually end up costing $2000 or maybe a little bit more including a pretty good bracelet, WSO 580 hoods etc.  Same watches as above with Yuki cases will run about $400 more.  Yuki cases are a lot easier to work with compared to the DW or MBK cases...read the sticky above and the various posts about these projects.

The 1655 sunk the boat because rounding up all the GMT parts ended up costing a lot more than expected.  The Phong 1655 case was purchased slightly used from a member at a discount.  This watch is now over $3000 and not finished...still needs c\o and putting together plus a few details.  Pretty sure I have all the GMT parts now.

The prices above reflect the bare bones cost of putting one of these watches together not counting the postage, hassles, wrong parts etc.  If someone furnishes all the parts they can usually count on $200 to $500 labor cost to put it all together depending on if everything fits together, light mods etc, and if the movement needs c\o and parts or not.  The only insurance when buying one of these watches is the word and reputation of the seller/builder.

In other words...they ain't cheap.  

[Nanuq]

From another perspective, you could buy a cheap, rattly, tinny, riveted 7206 band from Rolex in the early 70s for under $50.  Today that band would sell for $1,000 without blinking an eye.  Maybe 3x that.  Is that profiteering?  No, it's supply and demand.

If you know your stuff, the frankenfield is a great playground.  Pay what you know the pieces and watches are worth.  If something is overpriced, watch it a couple weeks... I bet the price will come down.

If you don't know your stuff, then frankens are not for you.  Go with stock from our trusted dealers.

A good corollary is buying a heavily modified Cobra kit car vs. a GT Mustang off the showroom.  If you're good with wrenches, or can afford someone who is, buy the Cobra.  Otherwise get the Muskrat and have 90% of the fun with almost no risk and instant gratification.

 

[irolexu]

Good thread


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[freddy333]

6 hours ago, Mike on a bike said:

Having spoken to most of our Rolex modders I have found  there are parts Rolex will sell unrestricted and those they do not, restricted.

I would love a source for any genuine Rolex parts today. About 10 years ago, Rolex SA clamped-down on their service network members & specifically forbid them from selling or transferring any Rolex parts to anyone outside the official Rolex service network. That virtually cut-off all of my sources for the past 25 years, all of whom told me Rolex made it clear that a single infringement would likely result in their losing their Rolex service &/or dealer status. So if anyone has a current source (other than ebay), please PM me.

As to the general state of frankens for buyers, it has always been a minefield & a very expensive 1 at that. As many, including myself, have stated over the years, that 'outrageous' price being asked for a vintage Rolex part or watch today will be the bargain 1 year from now. &, most likely, within 10 years, the price will double, triple or quadruple. The point is that due to diminishing supply & ever-increasing demand, price, within reason (for vintage Rolex), should never be a precluding factor for serious vintage Rolex projects. As Nanuq & Auto said, building quality frankens is a risky & expensive endeavor & 1 that is not for the impatient, bargain hunter or emotional. But the rewards outweigh the struggles if your pockets are deep enough, your eye is sophisticated enough & your plan is clear enough.

[hologramet]

17 minutes ago, freddy333 said:

I would love a source for any genuine Rolex parts today. About 10 years ago, Rolex SA clamped-down on their service network members & specifically forbid them from selling or transferring any Rolex parts to anyone outside the official Rolex service network. That virtually cut-off all of my sources for the past 25 years, all of whom told me Rolex made it clear that a single infringement would likely result in their losing their Rolex service &/or dealer status. So if anyone has a current source (other than ebay), please PM me.

As to the general state of frankens for buyers, it has always been a minefield & a very expensive 1 at that. As many, including myself, have stated over the years, that 'outrageous' price being asked for a vintage Rolex part or watch today will be the bargain 1 year from now. &, most likely, within 10 years, the price will double, triple or quadruple. The point is that due to diminishing supply & ever-increasing demand, price, within reason (for vintage Rolex), should never be a precluding factor for serious vintage Rolex projects. As Nanuq & Auto said, building quality frankens is a risky & expensive endeavor & 1 that is not for the impatient, bargain hunter or emotional. But the rewards outweigh the struggles if your pockets are deep enough, your eye is sophisticated enough & your plan is clear enough.

I have a Rolex source, PM med what you need.

---

Since I kind of started this, here are my "famous last words" (for now) in the matter:

I will approach this, wanting t help, as I've aways wanted. Sometimes, price breakdowns are wrong. E.g. including shipping and removed parts to the "total cost" or calculating "if another person would have built it then "modding costs would have been 800 USD, so let's say 400 USD".

Take care,

holo

 

[Mike on a bike]

And holo does he gave me the info, like I said some can get cheaper than others. I think freddy looking for vintage stuff.( I believe holo and I were talking more current models as to his sourceing.)

[droptopman]

Good thread.  I have avoided the sales thread back and forth as I did not feel I had anything meaningful to contribute.   

I know I have lost money on every build I have done... even those where I may have found a part or two under current market pricing.  Doing high end builds is not usually a profitable venture, even if you do all the work yourself.  

I generally view an item's worth as what I am willing to pay for it.  

Generally with vintage parts, I will pay more from a friend or a trusted source.  Too many scammers out there these days and too many junk parts.

On the subject of profiteering...

A fellow collector and friend sold me a 93150 for $500.  Market value for this item is $650-750.  We have exchanged watch parts, cigars, car parts and other things over the years.  I sent him a nice cigar sampler just for fun the other day.  He texted me a thank you.  No big deal.  A week later he sells me this bracelet on the cheap as he knew I was looking for one.  Here is another variable.  I also bought another 93150 bracelet a week later for $600 that is not in as good of condition but has a different date code.  If I decide to sell one of them, is it profiteering if I sell it for market price?  The price he gave me had less to do with value and more to do with our back and forth of proper deals and gifts.  I think it would be hard for me to sell it below market value.  I would just assume keep it.            

[irolexu]

Good thread.  I have avoided the sales thread back and forth as I did not feel I had anything meaningful to contribute.   

I know I have lost money on every build I have done... even those where I may have found a part or two under current market pricing.  Doing high end builds is not usually a profitable venture, even if you do all the work yourself.  

I generally view an item's worth as what I am willing to pay for it.  

Generally with vintage parts, I will pay more from a friend or a trusted source.  Too many scammers out there these days and too many junk parts.

On the subject of profiteering...

A fellow collector and friend sold me a 93150 for $500.  Market value for this item is $650-750.  We have exchanged watch parts, cigars, car parts and other things over the years.  I sent him a nice cigar sampler just for fun the other day.  He texted me a thank you.  No big deal.  A week later he sells me this bracelet on the cheap as he knew I was looking for one.  Here is another variable.  I also bought another 93150 bracelet a week later for $600 that is not in as good of condition but has a different date code.  If I decide to sell one of them, is it profiteering if I sell it for market price?  The price he gave me had less to do with value and more to do with our back and forth of proper deals and gifts.  I think it would be hard for me to sell it below market value.  I would just assume keep it.            

I do not think buying said parts below market value and selling for market value is profiteering at all and I believe this caused a big stir on one of my threads. What I believe to be profiteering is buying said item with the intent of making profit and listing above market value. For example if you bought that bracelet and it's usual price is 700-750 and you buy it for 600 knowing you may find a guy desperate in the middle of a build and list it for 850.00 here on the forums.. well that is when a line is crossed in my eyes. If you buy a bracelet for 450.00 on a hell of a buy I don't think it's fair to say you should be forced to sell at that cost but if you decide to do so that's your business. It would be fair in my eyes to sell it at market value according to its market price and condition.


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[Legend]

I do not think buying said parts below market value and selling for market value is profiteering at all and I believe this caused a big stir on one of my threads. What I believe to be profiteering is buying said item with the intent of making profit and listing above market value. For example if you bought that bracelet and it's usual price is 700-750 and you buy it for 600 knowing you may find a guy desperate in the middle of a build and list it for 850.00 here on the forums.. well that is when a line is crossed in my eyes. If you buy a bracelet for 450.00 on a hell of a buy I don't think it's fair to say you should be forced to sell at that cost but if you decide to do so that's your business. It would be fair in my eyes to sell it at market value according to its market price and condition.


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I think it's just a courtesy to let fellow members know the history and price paid for the watch. For example, watches won in raffles are typically sold at market values with discounts, and the watches are always declared as pieces won from raffles. The seller is in fact making good margins from selling the pieces won at raffles even at discounted prices, but this has not been an issue as long as the seller is open about it.

Trying to discreetly profit from sales is not forbidden of course, but a practice frowned upon.
All said, I think that your pieces ended up being priced fairly after some back and forth. Those are hard to get pieces with rare genuine parts in them and I think that there was a lot of appreciation for the watches.


Message crafted while smacking a wayward chicken with a salmon.

[Propofol]

My franken 116710 build ended up costing me a lot, and I lost 1000€ reselling it here..
It's a great thing to let the market decide
Chasing the parts is a great part of the build but it's a huge effort and time consuming.
And it's always disappointing when you see a guy who does not even know the difference between a 16610 and a 116610 debating the fact that he bought a Rolex crystal over eBay 20$ less then the part quoted in the build..
Watch smith itself is hard, delicate and cost !

[hologramet]

Ok.. 

A question for debate:

I picked up a 16710 non-LEC sapphire w/ glass retainer and all gaskets etc in mint shape on an auction for 50 EUR. 

Considering a used 25-295-C goes for about 100-150 EUR and the retainer etc for 200-350 EUR. 

Yeah, it was a bargain, I have no plans for a GMT or for that matter early sapphire date models 

How much should/can I list it for? 

[irolexu]

i believe you have the right to list it at market value or list it for how ever you feel is fair. It's your personal decision to list it for how ever much you feel is fair. You're not obligated to list it for 50.00 but i bet a lot of folks would appreciate buying it for the same price you paid. 


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[Propofol]

I just listed a 25 295 C at 120 USD

[QueTip]

That is such a great thread to read. Thanks for everyone who has chimed in until now, I will also share my view on that topic now. You can not make me stop!  

 

I've been in several discussions with people all over the rep and gen forums (especially on RWI, I'm sure y'all know why) where I've seen a lot of [censored] happening like i.e. a no profiteering rule but then seeing WM9 TTs sell at 1.2k stock with slight mods. And seeing a Noob v3 based franken SubC with the case being valued at $350. 

Now guess which sale got flamed? Yeah, the SubC because that case is an old rep case and bla bla. That is totally okay since these WM9's are rare as hens teeth nowadays and still the BEST OTB rep of the 16613 unless you build so are the v3 cases. 

 

As someone else already said above that's supply and demand. Which again is totally alright. 

 

Now seeing all this from the genuine / parts POV: 

 

If one bought a 1680 RedSub for let's say $250 back in the days, would it be profiteering nowadays if he sold it for the market value? Would YOU sell it for the same amount in 2016, you bought it for in the 70ies? I doubt it. That's just the market again. 

 

Same thing with parts, if one can source parts to modern or vintage parts no matter what he paid for it, the demand for it is there and if the people that want it decide they're ready to pay $3000 for a Hulk dial, then so be it, you can't change it even if the seller bought it for $1000 or whatever. 

 

I'm calling [censored] on all this profiteering bs that's all around lately. Sure it's not okay to sell a rep (current) that cost you $500 for $550. 

 

/rant

 

[automatico]

"Same thing with parts, if one can source parts to modern or vintage parts no matter what he paid for it, the demand for it is there and if the people that want it decide they're ready to pay..."

True.  Fifteen or twenty years ago I bought about 100 new rolex crowns in the event parts became hard to get (and they did)...5.3mm and 6.0mm steel were $20, gold 5.3mm and 6.0mm were $35, steel 7.0mm were $35 while gold 7.0mm were $75.  If I sell one today I will ask the market price.  Why?  Because if I sold them at or near cost as 'favors' to watch guys, they would likely end up on eBay for a whole lot more $$.  It's a fact of life.

Rule #1:  There are no friends in the mart. 

Rule #2:  Never discount an item no one really needs.  

 

[Sogeha]

3 minutes ago, automatico said:

 if I sold them at or near cost as 'favors' to watch guys, they would likely end up on eBay for a whole lot more $$.  It's a fact of life

 

I have never pulled a stunt like that and never would. Yes it happens and it's disappointing.

Having said that they are yours to do as you want with. You name a price and if another guy is happy to pay it, it sells. 

[Mike on a bike]

Good healthy airing here.

Consensus is the market will decide, as we all know these parts only go up that does not mean you have to "give it away two years later".  Also sited as in my opening statement the cost in time and bad parts incurred in a big build again something that has value and should be in your figuring when you look at buying a high cost franken.

[automatico]

"I have never pulled a stunt like that and never would."

I admit to being jaded.  After 40 years trading watches I have seen the underbelly of this 'hobby' up close and it ain't pretty.  Most of the members on this forum are a different breed (a much nicer group) from the 'serious' watch guys I used to come in contact with. 

 Heard these lines hundreds of times:  "All I need is just one part to get it running, help me out."  "I would like to have that watch to wear, make me a deal on it."  "Runs great, I just had it serviced."  "All it needs is a battery."

Rule #3:  Watchmakers make watches.  

[Sogeha]

2 hours ago, automatico said:

 Most of the members on this forum are a different breed (a much nicer group) from the 'serious' watch guys I used to come in contact with.

I have never seen any forum like this. It's very special.

[Retina]

the sunk cost of modding with tools, time, money invested exceeds what you could get from m2m when the piece has already been put together with correctly fitted parts.

Much trial an error and issues go with vintage rolex particularly, the build costs just keeps piling up. learning how to mod costs money as well, even after many builds, issues still occur and the invisible costs of modding are unforeseen for the builder and rarely mentioned to the buyer.

Mike hits the nail on the head, the approach for a full build purchase should not just be judged on the cost of parts, but the watch as a whole. Valuing builds requires experience and knowledge of what has been sold, purchased, and currently available in the market. This includes knowledge on how the build has been built.

A $5,000 listed build can be more value for money than a $300 listing. It is all relative to what has been put into a build.

[Dlf]

Every single Rolex part has to be logged with serials, photographed and documented, you can't even order some parts in multiples. Many people lost their accounts due to profiteering. It's very difficult to get lose parts and in effect prices soar, grab them whilst you can