Age old question - how much is too much?

[kernow]

I know that it will have been asked before, probably numerous times in different guises: but, how much is too much to spend on a rep/franken before you decide to buy a sensibly priced gen instead? For me: I've a few frankens including some in build and have probably no more than £500/$750 in any one build. 

I see guys here investing several thousand in a vintage build or a überfranken, but really, are they worth it?

[time4change]

hmmm.... i guess its supply and demand. There are different levels of franken. Is TC sub worth the money? what about a watch with all genuine parts constructed outside of the manufacturer? how much would that worth?

Personally I cant see myself spending more than £500 for even a franken. i woudl rather get a genuine registered watch, but the question is: Can a watch constructed outside of Rolex factory but with all genuine parts be called a genuine rolex?

 

[droptopman]

Not worth it unless you plan to keep it for life or acquired the parts a long time ago when they were reasonable. To hard to sell if you decide you want a change. Lost my *** on every single build. Even when you know the market and acquire parts at fair prices, it is just to hard to recoup.

One build I spent 8k on and sold it for 6. Would have made more back if I parted it out, but did not want to tear down a project that took a year to put together.

I really appreciate the guys who can take stock reps and modify them to look good but for a reasonable budget. As I improve my watch modding skills this is a really fun part of the hobby and one that makes more economical sense.

Pretty much done doing high end builds. They are fun to do but generally illogical. This is why I switched to collecting vintage gens instead. At least I know they will continue to increase in value and if I decide I want something different gens are much easier to move. And at the end of the day, a gen is a gen, especially vintage.

[pcardoza]

1 hour ago, kernow said:

I see guys here investing several thousand in a vintage build or a überfranken©, but really are they worth it? 

Worth it is not the point for many of these amazing builders.   The challenge of the build it what brings them satisfaction.   Rarely, does a super-franken sale seem to get the builder back what he sunk into it.    

I marvel at the skills these guys have and am always left wondering why they would even consider selling them.   ;-)

[dbane883]

I've spent more money than is reasonable on a couple of builds. But I don't plan to sell it. But other than the re-dial and the midcase/caseback, my big crown is all gen otherwise.

A similar condition all gen 6538 would cost $100-300k (?). For me, that difference is worth it to have a "Franken" at a fraction of the cost.

However, if one builds a more common 16610 and spends $3k for a gen dial/hands/cal 3135/xtal in a TC case, that doesn't make sense to me when you could buy used (gen) sub for $4.5k.

However, most hobbies don't make economic sense. It's not about building and then flipping for a profit.

[Sogeha]

Personally I work on a percentage of the cost of a genuine, not a monetary value. I'm reasonably happy with about 30% of the value of the cheap end of genuine secondhand values. If a watch is available secondhand for less than two grand, I'll probably buy a genuine version. I'm gathering parts for a Big Crown build and I expect to put four or five thousand into that. However I can't imagine getting a genuine 6538 for less than 35000. Also I never intend selling, so I'm less interested in resale value.

[508-Fanatic]

 

If one is going to drop thousands of dollars into a vintage franken build just make sure it's done right... nothing worse than having sunk all this $$$$ into a watch that you're not happy with. When in doubt contact one of the master's for advice - and make sure it's done right. Might cost more, but in the end it won't be a losing proposition or something to be unhappy about.

[tyrantblade]

I can't see ever going the franken route, but if i did, it would probably be a dial and maybe hands swap, so i would say if you do it as a % rather than dollar figure it would make more sense - maybe spend a third of what the gen would cost, lower if its a "high end" build (something like a vintage Rolex as they go for stupid high money)

[automatico]

"Can a watch constructed outside of Rolex factory but with all genuine parts be called a genuine rolex?"

I would say yes because it is all genuine. Like I have said before, there are probably thousands of these watches in circulation and I remember 20+ years ago when many 'big time dealers' would buy 10 or 20 similar genuine rolex watches at watch shows (mostly tutone DJ) and mix and match parts to put the best of the best together to sell at premium prices and watches in not as good condition were put together in descending levels of quality and sold at lower prices. This still goes on. Do not doubt it, just not tutones now.

Where do a lot of the highest quality, high $$ 1016/5512/13/1680 etc come from? Many come from a stash of parts.  Example:  I have a nos 1570 movement and a couple nos tritium 1016 dial and hand sets plus nos crowns, case tubes, crystals, etc.. What is to keep me from putting it in a super fine case, claim it is 'like new' and sell it for a high price? Nothing really. It just never happened. 

"How much is too much?"

I figure 'Frankensteins' are not much of a loss if:  1. You can do the work yourself and not pay out a lot of labor costs.  2. You can sell the watch on the forum for minimum or no loss.  3. The parts are worth close to what you have in the watch if you want to part it out.  A 5512/13/1680 in a Yuki or MBK case, Yuki etc dial/hands with a 1520/60/70 (holding movement cost to around $1000), and a good bracelet is not a bad 'investment' for around $2000 for an everyday watch. It sure beats a genuine 5512/13/1680 etc with a ratty dial/hands, tired movement, rotted out case, and stretch-o-matic 'parts is parts' oyster bracelet for $7k or more.

[tyrantblade]

1 hour ago, automatico said:

"Can a watch constructed outside of Rolex factory but with all genuine parts be called a genuine rolex?"

I would say yes because it is all genuine. Like I have said before, there are probably thousands of these watches in circulation and I remember 20+ years ago when many 'big time dealers' would buy 10 or 20 similar genuine rolex watches at watch shows (mostly tutone DJ) and mix and match parts to put the best of the best together to sell at premium prices and watches in not as good condition were put together in descending levels of quality and sold at lower prices. This still goes on. Do not doubt it, just not tutones now.

Where do a lot of the highest quality, high $$ 1016/5512/13/1680 etc come from? Many come from a stash of parts.  Example:  I have a nos 1570 movement and a couple nos tritium 1016 dial and hand sets plus nos crowns, case tubes, crystals, etc.. What is to keep me from putting it in a super fine case, claim it is 'like new' and sell it for a high price? Nothing really. It just never happened. 

"How much is too much?"

I figure 'Frankensteins' are not much of a loss if:  1. You can do the work yourself and not pay out a lot of labor costs.  2. You can sell the watch on the forum for minimum or no loss.  3. The parts are worth close to what you have in the watch if you want to part it out.  A 5512/13/1680 in a Yuki or MBK case, Yuki etc dial/hands with a 1520/60/70 (holding movement cost to around $1000), and a good bracelet is not a bad 'investment' for around $2000 for an everyday watch. It sure beats a genuine 5512/13/1680 etc with a ratty dial/hands, tired movement, rotted out case, and stretch-o-matic 'parts is parts' oyster bracelet for $7k or more.

"Tutone" Rolexes? Rolexes owned by Tommy Tutone?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6WTdTwcmxyo

[automatico]

"Tutone" Rolexes? Rolexes owned by Tommy Tutone?

Only if the serial number is 8675309.  

[panerai153]

I pretty much agree with most everybody. I have several pretty high end builds, the most expensive was my 1665 DRSD. I probably have close to 4K in that watch, but it's not going anywhere. Same with my GMT IIC.

I try to keep my costs at or around 30% of the cost of a gen. With Rolex, as vintage parts get scarcer and scarcer and prices keep going up, it's getting harder and harder to build these super franken vintage Rolexes and stay in budget. I was lucky, because several of my builds were done back 6-8 years ago or longer when parts were a bit more reasonable.

As was said before, better really like what you build, because it's a very rare watch that will sell for what you have in it. These are a labor of love not a source for profit! As many of our members have found out, sales in excess of 1k eliminate a huge number of buyers , and when prices get up in the 3-5k range, the buyer pool is tiny and the buyers get pretty darn picky.

[alt.watch.obsessive]

The ironic thing is the "risk" is mostly in the rep parts. The gen movement, dial, hands if we're talking Rolex are only going to increase in value as long as they don't get damaged. So the more gen parts you use, the more expensive but the more recoverable the investment, even if it has to be parted out. The main risk is that someone will come up with a better case than the Phong you're using and then its no longer worth $800-1200.

The previous comments are called enabling .

I also think it is important to ask yourself how you will feel not just when you build one watch at a third of gen cost but three . I would rather have three good builds I put together, but I am sure some would regret the "investment" at that point.

[tomhorn]

As others have mentioned, you always have to consider the cost of the gen vs what you are going to put into the build. I would agree with around 30% of gen being a good target for your max budget as well.

The most important thing is to not make mistakes when purchasing the parts. I have seen way too many people not plan and research their builds first, and end up buying parts that either won't work for what they are trying to accomplish or are going to make the build too expensive. Also, with very few exceptions, putting a gen movement in a franken is a bad move economically.

I see several people have said something along the lines of "it doesn't matter if I overpay because I'm never selling it". That's a bad philosophy to go into a build with. You never know what might happen in your life that could cause you to need to sell, or you might just tire of something. I have four frankens in my watch box now that going in I thought I would never sell .... but I really only wear one on a regular basis.

Fortunately I built all of them (or in one case, bought) "right" so if I decide to sell, I will probably come out OK. With what I have in them combined, I could buy a nice Sub or GMT II. The thought crosses my mind from time-to-time.

[automatico]

"The main risk is that someone will come up with a better case than the Phong you're using and then its no longer worth $800-1200."

This is a good point, especially if the 'better' case only costs $300 or $400.

I took the time (most of a day) to drill the lug holes out, machine the case tube seat to spec, grind the case sides flat, and polish them on a $150 DW '1680' case and I must say it looks pretty good except it says 'Steinless Steel' on one end. I have had the disc sander for over 10 years so I did not spend anything this time around except about $5 for stick on sandpaper discs (800 and 1500 grit) plus some 'wet or dry' sandpaper, polishing rouge and Simichrome polish. I figure my time is worth what I pay for it. 

"Also, with very few exceptions, putting a gen movement in a franken is a bad move economically."

Another good point. It used to be that a ratty rolex 1600 DJ, 1500 OPD or 5500 AK would go for $500 or $600 at pawnshops around here and it made genuine movement Frankensteins affordable. Now thanks to eBay, a ratty 1600, 1500, or 5500 will go for $1200 and up making the movements cost too much.

 

'Steinless Steel' is a new $uper alloy.  

[imajedi]

Step 1. Born with love for watches

Step 2. Discover reps and buy a bunch

Step 3. Start loving watches even more because they are now so accessible

Step 4. Start appreciating the details more and the flaws of the reps you own.

Step 5. Start building/buying frankens to fix the flaws

Step 6. Buy a gen because one of the reps you love has a flaw that can't be easily fixed

Step 7. Start appreciating the quality of the gen you own and realizing gen is gen.

Step 8. Start buying only gens

Step 9. Start buying vintage gens.

Just read through these and figure out where you are. If you are asking the question posed in this question you are transitioning from stage 5 to 6. Building an expensive Franken is just part of the process. It's neither right nor wrong. Enjoy the journey.

[Mike on a bike]

Pretty much the way of things.

 

Step 1. Born with love for watches

 

Step 2. Discover reps and buy a bunch

 

Step 3. Start loving watches even more because they are now so accessible

 

Step 4. Start appreciating the details more and the flaws of the reps you own.

 

Step 5. Start building/buying frankens to fix the flaws

 

Step 6. Buy a gen because one of the reps you love has a flaw that can't be easily fixed

 

Step 7. Start appreciating the quality of the gen you own and realizing gen is gen.

 

Step 8. Start buying only gens

 

Step 9. Start buying vintage gens.

 

Although there is sometimes turn offs and backtracks along the road as in off reps on gens then back to reps again then gens....................... In addition those of us with no hands on watch skills (think me) buy our franken pieces ( in truth better off when's the last time somebody got money back in full on a build). You do lose the so called joy of the journey but not really if you have ten thumbs it is a frustrating nightmare, tried. I do how ever know where to get parts or rather where to look for them but I am an outlier as I keep up on things for my work here others who can not build have no reason to be interested. All in all it's about our obsession with watches doesn't sound so good couched that way but it is the truth.

[droptopman]

Step 1. Born with love for watches

Step 2. Discover reps and buy a bunch

Step 3. Start loving watches even more because they are now so accessible

Step 4. Start appreciating the details more and the flaws of the reps you own.

Step 5. Start building/buying frankens to fix the flaws

Step 6. Buy a gen because one of the reps you love has a flaw that can't be easily fixed

Step 7. Start appreciating the quality of the gen you own and realizing gen is gen.

Step 8. Start buying only gens

Step 9. Start buying vintage gens.

Just read through these and figure out where you are. If you are asking the question posed in this question you are transitioning from stage 5 to 6. Building an expensive Franken is just part of the process. It's neither right nor wrong. Enjoy the journey.

Very logical post.

[mymanmatt]

No amount is to much. The cost of the frankens is determined by the parts that are used. Take a franken datejust. Gen case, a nice one, is $300 Most of the time it will come with a crystal that can be polished, if not, gen crystal is $85- $120. Gen bezel is $350- $60, depending on white gold or stainless. Crown is $85, tudor hands are $41 An open 69 dwo is $44.  Now, which movement? Swiss is $230-$250 for a fresh genuine.  Sa 3135 is $235 Nice stainless bracelet is $650. Add $175 labor. That's it.  So, now you have a really nice franken for $1900. You can buy a full gen for around $2850. A gen 3135 movement is around $1500. Subtract that from the price of the watch, it leaves $1350. That's less than you have in the franlen. But, your franken is complete, and you have no movement in your gen. I think now it comes down to just how much fun do you want to have. Anyone can go buy a gen ready to go. Building it is way more fun. If for no other reason than to see how gen you can make it look.  Most people that build a franken can afford a gen with no problem, but why not save some money. This is a build of an old style datejust. When you get into the new style, the price difference is much greater. A new style franken and a new style datejust have a gap of at least $4000. That is significant. 

[panerai153]

No amount is to much. The cost of the frankens is determined by the parts that are used. Take a franken datejust. Gen case, a nice one, is $300 Most of the time it will come with a crystal that can be polished, if not, gen crystal is $85- $120. Gen bezel is $350- $60, depending on white gold or stainless. Crown is $85, tudor hands are $41 An open 69 dwo is $44.  Now, which movement? Swiss is $230-$250 for a fresh genuine.  Sa 3135 is $235 Nice stainless bracelet is $650. Add $175 labor. That's it.  So, now you have a really nice franken for $1900. You can buy a full gen for around $2850. A gen 3135 movement is around $1500. Subtract that from the price of the watch, it leaves $1350. That's less than you have in the franlen. But, your franken is complete, and you have no movement in your gen. I think now it comes down to just how much fun do you want to have. Anyone can go buy a gen ready to go. Building it is way more fun. If for no other reason than to see how gen you can make it look.  Most people that build a franken can afford a gen with no problem, but why not save some money. This is a build of an old style datejust. When you get into the new style, the price difference is much greater. A new style franken and a new style datejust have a gap of at least $4000. That is significant. 

Well said sir. The only deviation from that is when you get into some of the Rolex vintages like the 1665, 6538 or the vintage Daytonas. While the genuines are really,really expensive, the genuine parts to build a franken have gotten out of sight as well.

I'm just glad I built( had built) the ones that I have years ago, because I couldn't afford to build them today.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[tslims99]

19 hours ago, imajedi said:

 

Step 1. Born with love for watches

 

Step 2. Discover reps and buy a bunch

 

Step 3. Start loving watches even more because they are now so accessible

 

Step 4. Start appreciating the details more and the flaws of the reps you own.

 

Step 5. Start building/buying frankens to fix the flaws

 

Step 6. Buy a gen because one of the reps you love has a flaw that can't be easily fixed

 

Step 7. Start appreciating the quality of the gen you own and realizing gen is gen.

 

Step 8. Start buying only gens

 

Step 9. Start buying vintage gens.

 

Just read through these and figure out where you are. If you are asking the question posed in this question you are transitioning from stage 5 to 6. Building an expensive Franken is just part of the process. It's neither right nor wrong. Enjoy the journey.

I have been waiting for a great post all weekend to piggy back off of.  I couldn't have said it more perfectly.  I agree completely.  

I had a conversation with another member a few weeks back about a topic similar to this.  My general opinion is that I won't franken anything anymore and I won't buy a rep out of the box over about $400-$500.  The reason for this is just as jedi has mentioned.  I have a hard time buying the reps of gen brands that I have owned in the past or currently do own.  I still buy reps, but I don't buy Omega or Rolex anymore because I have owned the real thing and felt the difference.  

Frankens to me are polarizing.  If you are really into it as a hobby and as a fulfilling way of spending spare time, then I think they are fantastic.  If you want to have a "vintage" watch that would normally cost exorbitant amounts of money were it a gen, then I think they are cool as hell and a fabulous alternative.  However, if you are trying to franken something so that you can make the watch appear so close to the original that even a trained eye would not be able to tell the difference, then I would suggest a re-examination of priorities. At that point I would suggest that one might be trying too hard to be something they are not.  Too much time and energy invested in a project that is simply meant to fool others, or prop up your own self-esteem in the company of others kind of says something...not sure what that is, but it says something.  That brings up another question, DO YOU GUYS READILY TELL PEOPLE THAT YOU ARE WEARING A REP, OR DO YOU JUST TRY TO STUNT ON PEOPLE WHEN THEY BRING UP YOUR WATCH?!?!?!  My answer to this question is that if someone simply says to me that they like my watch, I will simply say, "Thank you!"  But if follow up questions ensue, I feel almost obligated to admit that the watch is a rep - with only occasional caveats or special circumstances where I might play the subterfuge out a little longer.

Just my opinion.  Not saying that I have never built a franken - I have - but only one.  I just kinda felt like a fraud when I did it, and never built another one.  I know I am opening pandora's box with this opinion, but I really think that once most people start owning gens, frankens and expensive reps become almost ridiculous.  Cheers, gang!

[highoeyazmuhudee]

22 hours ago, imajedi said:

 

Step 1. Born with love for watches

 

Step 2. Discover reps and buy a bunch

 

Step 3. Start loving watches even more because they are now so accessible

 

Step 4. Start appreciating the details more and the flaws of the reps you own.

 

Step 5. Start building/buying frankens to fix the flaws

 

Step 6. Buy a gen because one of the reps you love has a flaw that can't be easily fixed

 

Step 7. Start appreciating the quality of the gen you own and realizing gen is gen.

 

Step 8. Start buying only gens

 

Step 9. Start buying vintage gens.

 

Just read through these and figure out where you are. If you are asking the question posed in this question you are transitioning from stage 5 to 6. Building an expensive Franken is just part of the process. It's neither right nor wrong. Enjoy the journey.

NAILED IT

[Mike on a bike]

  "I know I am opening pandora's box with this opinion, but I really think that once most people start owning gens, frankens and expensive Reps become almost ridiculous. "  That is a tough call I go back and forth you will see my decision in the next raffle. Do I put in a beautiful brand new gen (Raymond Weil Ti Freelancer or my Rolex 1984 spider dial Pepsi GMT) Now I can buy another Gen but getting all the Gen parts for that Rolex well that is very hard. As far as cost the same.................

[tslims99]

1 hour ago, Mike on a bike said:

  "I know I am opening pandora's box with this opinion, but I really think that once most people start owning gens, frankens and expensive Reps become almost ridiculous. "  That is a tough call I go back and forth you will see my decision in the next raffle. Do I put in a beautiful brand new gen (Raymond Weil Ti Freelancer or my Rolex 1984 spider dial Pepsi GMT) Now I can buy another Gen but getting all the Gen parts for that Rolex well that is very hard. As far as cost the same.................

That's a really good point Mike.  The hunt for rare parts is certainly part of the attraction for many franken enthusiasts.

[Mike on a bike]

Attraction to some pain in the ass for others (think me). I quite honestly never understood that one I envision/pick the watch I would like then have to find the parts & have built, happy when it's done!