dieselpower

Since the term franken derives from Mary Shelley's 'Frankenstein' story (the Frankenstein monster was cobbled together from the remains of various (different) dead bodies), technically, it should describe any watch that is put together out of parts from other watches -- regardless of whether the other watches are gens, reps or custom. However, the definition of the term frankenwatch, as I 1st read about it in an internal Rolex memorandum to dealers back in the 1980s (I had a close friend whose family founded a large chain of retail stores, which were ADs), was meant solely to describe a 'fake' or 'replica' Rolex watch that was fitted with genuine Rolex parts. So I guess you can take your pick of definitions.

I think we're getting somewhere here and I mostly agree with the conclusions you draw about the novel from which the term comes. I would only take issue with the "parts from other watches" bit. Yes parts are used from other watches but I would argue that those parts would have to be gen. In the same way that the parts the doctor used in the story were human. If he had used a chimpanzees arm and a pigs heart then I think your conclusion would be correct, but he didn't. Also this keeps the spirit of the term alive which we have all come to understand as something desirable and somehow more valuable.

So, I agree that a watch with one or more gen parts transplanted on to it is a franken - the only problem is that the term is too vague for reasons we have gone into before - the goalposts are too wide. As there are not too many major parts to a typical watch (counting the movement as one item) perhaps we could use a percentage system. Experts - certainly not me could establish a scale whereby the various parts are given a percentage value (eg crystal 5%, crown 5% movement 30% etc etc) then a watch could be described as a "10% franken", that it has a gen crown and crystal the rest of the parts are rep but those two items make up the 10% scoring. This system would be fair and informative and would also work for a piece which is 100% made from gen parts but still, in my book at least be classed as a franken.

What do you think?

Would it be possible to ever agree on the percentage values of the parts?

Would any experts be prepared to draw up a short list of their values?

I hasten to add that a part should be given a percentage value in relation to a watch a a whole and not because of its rarity of difficulty to acquire. Eg if it is decided that a dial is valued at 15% then that figure is true for all dials and does not change for a PN Daytona or a Comex or whatever.

As a basic list of major parts to be given percentage values (small screws and clips etc etc should not count - we would be here forever) we could use the following:

Case (incl springbars)

Bezel

Bezel insert

Glass/crystal

Dial

Hands

Crown/tube

Pushers

Movement (incl datewheel)

I also think that the bracelet/strap should be dealt with as a separate issue - for simplicities sake. If anyone (expert or not) would care to point out any glaring omissions to this basic list then please do. I certainly don't want to dictate the rules on this but feel that it is an issue worth pursuing and would hope that we could get to a mutually agreed scale whereby a frankenwatch can be accurately evaluated and this would be of great help to all concerned.

Any rep fitted with 1 or more gen parts is, by definition, a frankenwatch.

I take your point freddy333 and I think it is a good one. If we accept this as a definition then we will all have to re-think our watches and their values. I think we can agree that generally speaking a franken is held in higher regard than a modded watch and is therefore of greater value because there is an implication that the addition of genuine parts has meant that the base watch was of higher quality and the cost of gen parts is greater etc etc. However, a superbly modded MBW 1665 good rep glass, hands, fantastic ageing of dial, ubi datewheel etc is a modded watch. Another MBW 1665 with a gen crown and tube but no other mods and clearly to the trained eye a rep is in fact a franken. The former watch looks better and has had much more work done to it and is more valuable and more desirable but by definition would somehow be perceived as a lesser watch without the magic word franken attached to it, even though is worth more money.

If we are genuinely looking for a definition rather than just mere opinions.... I think this.... he thinks that etc..... then I think freddy333 has a very strong argument. At least it is clear cut. Does it have any gen parts? If yes, its a franken, if no then it's not simple as that.

I have a question - what about the bracelet/strap? If a poor quality SUB has no mods and no gen parts but a gen clasp on the bracelet - is this a franken?

or if everything was a gen but the case would you call it a Franken or just a gen?

bean

Lets be clear about one thing. If a watch was not made at the original factory - no matter if all the parts are gen - then the watch is not a gen. It is franken. I think we can all agree on that. Genuine means exactly that, genuinely made by the manufacturer not assembled by an independant watchsmith out of parts he/she has purchased or whatever.

Glad people find the subject interesting. I know that a similar argument occurs in the classic car world, a world that shares many similarities with our own world of watches. There is a definition of what makes a classic car an "original" or a replica, engine gear box chassis etc (not sure of the exact rules but I know they exist). Would it be possible for us to have an open debate and decide on a definition for ourselves? How many parts need to be gen - what parts need they be etc etc. For me, and this is only a personal opinion, the movement is one of the major factors. I have reps with gen parts but I would never contemplate describing them as franken until a piece had a gen movement. The case to me is not such an important issue. If a watch had a gen movment with a good 1:1 case (modded if necessary) and various other gen parts then I think I would call it franken. However, a gen case with a non gen movement is not to me a franken. Can we find the answer? Lets try.

Hello everybody,

I feel the need to raise this question. When is a watch a "franken"? I pose this question because I have seen many watches described as "franken" and I would class them as modded reps. I could be wrong but to me a true franken is a watch made wholly from genuine parts - just like Frankensteins creation. He did not use replica arms and legs did he? So, I open the debate when is a watch a franken and when is it a top end rep?

As Hambone and Freddy said, the Rolex is simply stated the most elegant of men's watches. I've been selling most of my other collection simply to fund further rolex. Here's an example of a gorgeous gen:

Snap! Well, almost

I was always told the golden rule for Rolex investment was - buy a steel Daytona. Doesn't matter what year of manufacture just as long as its steel your money is safe.

Welcome to the forum. Hopefully you will find a mountain of information here and help build a great collection.

I agree with bruce79. If you're going to part with the money a last of the line SD is the one to buy.

Touche mon ami.

(Silly post I know but am just trying to build my count up)

Agreed, although you could also approach it the other way and truly build a "new" replica to pay homage to the vintage piece and then sort of go out of your way to tell others about it as a project to build a new old stock version of something old. But you are right, if the idea is to recreate a vintage piece as if it were truly an old gen, the detail in the aging is critical. In any event, I am most interested in doing a project that will accept gen parts as I think some of those (as in the modern Subs) are a vast improvement in my eyes - such as gen crystals and inserts fro example - although I'm not sure what is available for vintage pieces and if the cost is prohibitive or not. I think I should probably start by picking Tribal's brain if he will let me...

If you like vintage try looking into the 1665 Sea Dweller. Do your homework and you will end up with a piece that is indistinguishable from the gen. I know because I have one and I was comparing it to a gen in an exclusive London collectors window (David Duggan) and I was amazed at how well my rep compared - besides I love the SD 1665 anyway.

Welcome aboard. Enjoy the ride.

OK. Have worked out the prices and there's not much difference so I think I will go for the Ofrei pushers - only a madman would go against a recommendation from freddy333 when it comes to rep Daytonas. I do have a question though. The person who is going to assemble the watch has asked me to provide any special tools required for the removal and replacement of the pushers. So the question is - what do I need and where do I get it?

Thanks a bunch.

DW is the supplier of rep Daytona cases and parts. He is in the far East (no suprise) and can supply cases with the asymetrical pushers that are the key to building a gen looking vintage Daytona. There are other suppliers as well.

OK, DW has come good on the parts. See below what I have - gen crown and tube were from my (little) parts bin. Glass on watch is a gen already, I daren't open the hands package I'll probably bend something but there they are, silver dial looks to be a vast improvement so that just leaves the pushers. Will take the plunge soon.

Cheers everyone.

That has to be a layer of plastic!

Have to agree with LordRasta. Offering someone cash in a mall is no way to go about business. You made the right choice.

Ok Randy, I hear what you're saying. I lay down a challenge.... build a decent Prince. One of these:

In my time in this forum (the best IMHO) nobody ever talks about Princes and they are one of the finest, most sought after Rollies in the world, you have scope vis a vis the movement (Gruen hint, hint..) and there are alot of broken old pieces that a skilled man (such as yourself) could cannibalise to make a truly outstanding piece. Don't forget - this has never been done before (not to my knowledge anyway) so whoever achieves it will be a trailblazer indeed. Feel like taking up the challenge?

All the best,

Dieselpower.

Randy by name.........

Love the 1016 will be nice to see it completed. I like to see bars in the lug holes as well - it says "I mean business"

In cities you get 'mugged' in the wilderness you get 'mauled' - is nowhere safe? Looks beautiful btw. Not sure I'd relish a 'mauling' though

Does anybody have any experience of the pushers that cousinsuk are selling for 6263 Daytonas? I have been recommended the ones that ofrei is selling but have noticed something similar on the Cousins website and was wondering what the quality was like - they are certainly a lot cheaper! Thanks.

Have bought one piece from him and it was excellent. There were a few reports that his standards were dropping but I don't know about that, all I can say is that with me he was excellent. Hope this helps.

White is gay

Caseback ordered.

I am now looking at pushers. The ones on my watch feel cheap. I can't really describe it very well, also I have little experience of operating gen pushers on a 6263 ( I did have a play with one one about 5 years ago!) but as I recall they felt quite solid and substantial, mine feel a little flimsy and rubbish. Anyway, I don't know where I might find gen pushers or what their price might be, or indeed if they will fit my case, so I have another question: what do you experts think about the pushers being sold by cousinsuk? they are not expensive but are they any good? will they fit my case? what do you think? Thanks again for help.