By-Tor

That's what I thought... I wouldn't have been able to tell without owning a WM9. And you're absolutely correct: This watch is so amazing when all the mods have been performed, it's unreal.

None of us were able to detect Ubi's WM9. It's the case and rehaut that make the difference. Perfection.

Congrats!

Happy 25th Birthday M!

you realize that you r nuts in the eyes of 99.9% of the peeps. flat or no flat s... :-))))))))))))))

that is why i love this forum. enough people more nuts then i am...

Yes, I realize that I'm completely NUTS. But I have no problem with it. I love being nuts.

And besides, most people are nuts about something. It might be the sports statistics, cars, boats, etc. For me it's watches.

Well at least in my eyes it beats watching reality TV and soaps.

Well thought, but it's not true.

It's rarer variation but definitely no logic there (between old and new). HERE is a Ebay auction of a 2004 model with flat S. I've seen a 2007 model with flat S.

I love the flat S, that's why I wanted the WM9.

If I remember correctly, the flat "S" which this appears to have, was only available on gen subs that would have had lugholes, because it was in the 90's I believe.

Not true. "Flat S" has been available always, no matter what decade the watch is from. I have a real-life friend who bought a brand new model (in 2006) with flat S.

It's either a gen or WM9 with Noob bracelet, cg mods and a replacement crystal.

@avitt: I'm getting that exact same watch, but with WHS. Can't wait.

George is updating the WM9 Sub with super luminova and hollow link bracelet. But according to my sources the new model isn't going to have the "flat S" which I love.

http://www.watchmaker9.tv/latest_news.htm

I must be nuts, but I prefer the (inaccurate) solid middle links bracelet over the hollow too.

Black or white?

BOTH!

WHO you ask.......

Not me, I love the Black Dial too

Thanks D... I wish it was my watch though. This is gen... web finds.

My black ExpII rep is coming eventually. Meanwhile I have to drool these photos.

@watcher: That looks like WM9.

I'm with Freddy and Stephane. GMT today.

Markers, pearl and all that... it's easy to fix with a genuine insert. But I encourage you to compare it to MANY Sub models from different decades. What I've learned about Rolex that there's only one thing that's consistent: inconsistency. LOTS of variation between things like bezel font, thickness and even dials.

One day I was looking at the "Rolex forum", and those guys who "call out" fakes there. What a bunch of amateurs... they have absolutely no clue about anything. They "called out" two perfectly legitimate 16800 models on Ebay during one day, thinking that bezel font and thickness is the definite way to determine between a fake and gen.

The biggest issue with Rolex replicas is always the "fundamental overall look" of the watch. That means the crystal/case combination that you simply can't fix. That's all I really care about, rest is "fixable" if it bothers you. There's lots and lots of variation in stuff like dials and bezel font, even among the 16610. But the case and crystal/rehaut combo is always the same. It's immediately identifiable for someone who has really studied the gens... and that's where the WM9 shines.

Yes, the "Noob" Explorer II is the best ever Rolex replica ever done. It's better than the GMTIIc and at least just as good as the WM9 Sub.

It's virtually perfect, just needs a minor cg work and new crown. The default crown is crap. The rep dial isn't 100% perfect but you have to be a ultimate geek to see the difference. It's the same base watch that was used to build my frankenwatch.

Check this.

Because it's not a Submariner it gets little attention... but it's ridiculously accurate. Don't take my word for it... just compare it to the gen counterpart. Still available through Eurotimez.

great great review. thank you for all your hard work. Your comment on the rehaut is interesting. I also feel that crystal cut effects rehaut perception.I believe it is why the ssd rehaut looks so off.

Thanks man.

Yes, that's what I've been saying all along. The "front appearance" ruins the SSD completely... it looks nothing like the gen. I'm always amazed that many members are so worried about things like pearl and crystal height over this. The rehaut/crystal thickness is an essential Rolex feature, and it's similar on all sports Rolexes (except for the Sea Dweller where the "cylindrical appearance" is even thicker and more apparent).

On the SSD case, it's not just a crystal issue. The whole rehaut is screwed up. It's WAY too deep and has completely wrong shape. It's very, very obvious. This has never gotten the attention it deserves, although it's probably the single most important thing to get right (at least for me). The "Noob" watches (GMTII, ExpII, Noobmariner, GMTIIc and Daytona) are very good in this regard, but even they have a bit too "matte" crystal gasket.

Like I said, the WM9 is the very first Rolex rep that got this done "spot on".

This obviously.

Great review as allways

Its really a damn good Sub

I love it

As I can see on your Pics the CG's looks the same as on the Euro

little bit too long and slightly wrong shape

so I believe its the same base Case

Thanks Tribal. Yeah, the cg's are similar, but some people say it's the same case, some swear that it isn't. I have to say I'm a bit confused here.

Just as I wrote, if it's the same case it's the crystal and gasket that are definitely different. Your watch has excellent "front appearance", but the default Euromariner doesn't. The "thickness" isn't there.

The WM9 looks absolutely perfect in this regard (when I put it next to my gen).

PS: Thanks all. Much appreciated. It takes a lot of effort to put these together, and a response like this from the members is the best reward. I always want to make my writeups "easy to access" and as useful as possible.

Now I hear you all screming: "Oh my God, not another Submariner review by By-Tor! Please no more!"

Well, to my defense I have to say that it's been a while. I thought I'd never buy one again, but... like the old mafia saying goes: I tried to quit, but they keep dragging me in! And besides owning countless of rep Subs in the past, I didn't have one in my collection anymore. At the end of the day none of the previous models satisfied me. I actually prefer the GMT II and Explorer II over the Sub, but you can't deny the attractiveness of the Legend.

It was actually Ublquitous' amazing pictorial of his WM9 that finally convinced me to buy this rep. Of course mine isn't that nice (as Ubi has performed many hardcore modifications), but if this rep is good enough for "Mr. Perfection", it's definitely good enough for me. Ubi's WM9 was also the only rep Submariner that our membership (who detect reps and gens almost for living) couldn't "call out". Tells you something about the potential of this amazing forgery! I'm sure it's reps like this that Montres Rolex S.A. wouldn't want to see.

Another Rolex man of ours, Stephane, also built a "Super Sub" of his WM9. Another veteran of many gen Rolexes, Watcher, chose the WM9 too, so it's quite safe to say that this particular rep model is the "Choice of the HC guys".

This is not going to be an excessive review, because there has been so many writeups of these watches. And I couldn't compete with sd4k and Toadtorrent's amazing "mini novels" anyway. "Brief and striking" has always been my attempted style.

HISTORY OF THE "WATCHMAKER9 SUB":

I have owned/reviewed every single important Sub model (except for the new Euromariner) over the years.

About a year ago we saw the first pictures of the "WM9 Submariner". The release of this model caused a small sensation in the community. It was hands down the best Sub we had ever seen. Some people didn't like the idea of an off-site dealer offering something that our "star dealers" couldn't source. Well, it really took surprisingly long for our dealers to source this watch, but now it's here! The cost is very reasonable, at least compared to George's (WM9) greasy prices.

It is largely speculated that this replica is the "sequel" to the old, legendary TW Best/MBW model, which was in production for over a decade. At least that familiar (ugly) green sticker and solid midlink bracelet are similar. The reason our dealers couldn't source this earlier might have something to do with the departure of Eddie Lee and River, who were the main sources for the "TW models" in the old days.

Our superb EU-based dealers, Precious Time and Eurotimez, were both able to source the "WM9" already, but I wanted my watch without the engravings. I simply hate them, it's yet another new Rolex design "innovation" which just plain sucks. And besides, the engravings look less than stellar on both of the current "top Subs", WM9 and Euromariner. They're are also the weakest link on the otherwise "almost perfect" Ultimate GMT IIc.

I requested Precious Time to encourage the factory to make this model without the engravings, and here it is, available again! Actually I convinced him that he will sell all the 30 pieces he gets. I'm 100% he does. I'll hereby promise to buy one of those weird looking Panerai watches if he doesn't! Seriously, there's no guarantee that the production of the non-engraved version is going to continue, so grab yours now!

WHY DID I CHOOSE THE WM9 INSTED OF "EUROMARINER"?

Simple: The crystal and crown are better on the WM9. The rehaut appearance and thickness (from front and side) is unmatched on the WM9, which is important to me. It's the only "otb" Rolex rep which looks absolutely sensational from this angle. I have explained more about this "look" in my other Rolex reviews so I don't want to go there again. Short: It's the "metallic" and smooth appearance, and the "dent" right below the crystal. Here you can see the WM9 compared to my genuine GMT Master II. Rehaut depth is slightly deeper on WM9 than my gen GMT (like it should), and it's perfect. Notice the red marked area. That shows the cylindrical "bevel" below the crystal. Notice also the amazing SELs on the WM9.

Euromariner utilizes the perfect Noobmariner dial, which the WM9 can't quite compete against, but then again I prefer the "flat S" for some weird reason. This is not to say that the WM9 dial isn't good, it definitely is... but the Noob dial could be the best Rolex dial that factories have ever produced. Euromariner also has excellent hollow link bracelet, and the links are solid on the WM9. Tribal has modified his Euromariner to almost perfect condition. After exchanging the crystal on the "Euro", the rehaut thickness and correct bevel seem to be there. So looks like the whole "rehaut thickness" thing is mainly a crystal/gasket issue.

Here's the WM9 dial, which is very respectable. The only real issue is the oversized crown etching on the crystal, which these large pictures (of course) exaggerate.

STATS:

Pluses and minuses on WM9 and Euromariner:

(Both watches have excellent, well fitting SELs and gen-like bezel constructions. The crown guards on both watches need just very minor work. Mine has already been done (in the pictures)).

WM9:

+ Best rehaut thickness & crystal "bevel" appearance of any Rolex replicas, ever. Without any modifications.

+ Almost perfect crown.

+ "Flat S" for the geeks that prefer it.

- Solid link bracelet.

- Very good dial, but can't quite match the Noob/Euro.

- Not a great pearl.

- Not necessarily available without the engravings, long term.

- Oversized etched crown on the crystal.

Euromariner:

+ Perfect dial.

+ Hollow link bracelet.

+ Available with and without lugholes.

+ Available continuously without the engravings (confirmed).

+ After crystal/gasket exchange the rehaut thickness looks as good as WM9.

- Worse crown.

- Worse rehaut thickness and the cylindrical crystal/rehaut appearance (without crystal/gasket exchange).

MY PERSONAL IMPRESSIONS:

Like I said, none of the previous models fully satisfied me. Noobmariner suffered from the short rehaut, "matte" crystal and that gigantic, ridiculous "Jumbo" crown. The old TW Best model had awful SELs, bad dial and numerous other inaccuracies. MBK had bad rehaut thickness, too deep rehaut, bad dial, way oversized date magnification and very high price.

The WM9 is quite pricey for a ETA Sub, in the $335 range... but for what it offers it's a genuine bargain (by today's price standards). This is the very first otb replica Sub that really feels like the gen. That's something that even the pictures can't quite capture. WM9 is light years better than the MBW and old TW models, and a slight improvement over the classic Noobmariner (which I still consider very good replica).

If you forget the solid bracelet, it's just as good as "otb" as the Noobfactory black Explorer II (which I personally consider the best ever modern Rolex replica). I love the WM9, and since the basic appearance is so good, it's a perfect base for mods. I doubt I'll do many mods though. Things like the etched crown and solid link bracelet don't really bother me.

WHO HAS THE BEST SUB?

Just like in the old days, when we had the CN vs. TW Best, and later Noobmariner vs. MBW debates, we now have the WM9 and Euromariner debates. There is no definite answer, both have their strong points... but now the quality has taken yet another leap towards visual perfection. Both watches are extremely close "otb", and both can be modified to almost perfect visual condition. Impossible to say which is the better one (when all possible modifications have been performed).

The link to Tribal's pictorial indicates that Euromariner might be the better (and cheaper) alternative for the "builders". I chose the WM9 because I don't really feel like doing any mods (besides very basic ones like cg's). Also, the crown and rehaut thickness/crystal bevel appearance is very important to me. Well, just pick your favorite, both products are excellent. This time we can say: First choose your Sub, then choose your dealer.

.

we should buy them all.

Spoken like another true addict!!!

That's the real "Super" Sea Dweller.

Good choice... these classic models will become very desirable after Rolex has screwed up its entire catalog with tasteless cack like YMII and DeepSh*t.

Congrats!

Heh... Looking through your review, I saw your reference to my El Primero projects Interesting to look back only to realize that the post was only two years ago... Seems like I've had this pair in my possession for much longer than that!

Yeah, those frankens are legendary. But I agree, it feels like you've had them forever. Probably the most well known watches in the community.

How can I obtain a good rolex ss daytona replica? or Can I put one together myself . I am looking for a very good copy. Is there such a thing outthere?

I wonder how it is even possible to miss the modern Daytona FAQ, which is pinned in this very same section?

@BT - This one obviously deserves to be pinned, but in the future may I suggest that you give it a week or so before pinning a thread? A lot of guys only look at the top threads in a category every day, and don't even glance at the pinned articles. I fear that a lot of people will overlook this great piece simply because they don't pay attention to the pinned threads. For the long term its great, but when a review is new, its not so good.

You have a point.

Unpinned.

Will pin it again later.

Freddy, do you have pics of the new dial you sourced? It'd be interesting to see the condition.

Good luck man! This is a fascinating project.

I can't believe no one has started this yet.

It's actually Thursday morning here already... and this is what I'm wearing right now.