Victoria

Agreed...

http://www.rwg.cc/members/index.php?showtopic=46319&hl=

TT

OMG! WTF! CIA! ...sorry, I ran out of catchy 3-letter acronyms.

P.S.: EWWWWWWW.

and yes .. point taken about my 300 post versus more ... i understand how you feel... not speaking for Madame V. I'm sure she meant no one harm .... emotions were high at the time.... i dunno maybe better to vent here than in traffic Yes?

Lanikai, don't worry about it. Things won't change with people who have a personality conflict with another member. No matter what that object of irritation says, they will find it a way to turn things around, and get you, because it's not about what you say, it's who you are that gets to them.

I've found that people with big personalities have to put up with this, but I won't entertain conversations about myself on this or any other forum. It brings down the tone of the entire place, and leaves people numb. If you wish this forum well, don't do it.

If you continue, just be aware that I will come out smelling like roses, because my first and last instinct is to ignore this behaviour by taking the High Road, whereas that person comes out looking like an obsessive schmuck.

Now, back to the cartel talk...UHH. NOT!

and you must admit Miss V's vocabulary is intense so if she were to pay me a compliment ... using a million $ word I may get offended ...LOL ...

The only thing I'd call you is "Muscles", and I believe they're charging a buck forty for that word these days.

I want to replace my Pam 177 scratched mineral crystal with a saphire crystal. Can anyonr out there help? I really like the watch, but when I look at it I want to scream because of the scratch. I'm tired of screaming, I'm loosing my voice.

Aww, man, what's wrong with us today. Sorry about the late reply to a fellow n00b, but we're engrossed by Part XXI of a contentious thread -- so much so, other threads with more pressing matters are going unreplied to.

First, Russ, I'd counsel you to contact the dealer you got it from. If it's one of the reputable collectors (harrumph!), they should be able to send you a replacement, often free of charge.

If you got it from a member trade, then it's trickier. I would try to contact Davidsen (one of the collectors here, who has a gallery -- look there for contact info), and ask if he could sell you a sapphire crystal for your 177. There are Western Union fees, and the like, but his sapphires are guaranteed legit.

Good luck to you, either way!

I have a semi-eidetic memory

Heh. You must be great at playing poker.

(Off to dine. I'm fairly certain when I come back, there'll be 8 pages worth of replies to read. Ahh, the lure of the internet...)

I believe that it would fit as a sub-category of ad hominem; argumentum ad personam is a part of ad hominem if not the essence of that fallacy. So calling a person eg. noob/newbie, belittling them to make their argument/position/persona inferior, based on their miniscule/large post count is indeed ad hominem. Oh snap...

I'm going to avoid the inference, and simply say this:

When someone is giving out potentially damning information to a board, THEN their status is key, as in any argument the added weight of being a known quantity becomes very important. You always trust those you know better than those you don't -- which includes myself (edit: I wouldn't expect to be trusted over, say, Pugwash, or Clive, i.e.).

Why? Because the person with a beef could well be someone with an axe to grind, or God forbid, a regular poster with a second ID hiding behind it to slander people because they're a coward.

I have an almost photographic memory, but I admit, I don't even remember who it was that quoted Jos Nana (who I see is now reading this thread...and Trusty) as having written that in an email.

But putting on my Historian cap, I need proof not second-hand info. Might not change my opinion, but facts are facts.

Get off your high horse.

Enough. I am no one's punching bag. When you don't care for someone, what they write, how they are, where they come from, you state your peace and that's it.

You will not get a single reply from me, again, so I suggest you move on.

stop buying = price decrease...bada bing

That is true, but I hate to break it to anyone who doesn't know (not you fishgodeep!) , but we are not the end-all, be-all of the rep world.

From what I can see, Joshua and Andrew's business has grown to massive proportions, in part but NOT IN TOTALITY, due to forum members' support of them for years.

But maybe they've outgrown their need on us, let's be honest.

I do know one thing for sure, is that if I were in their shoes, I wouldn't like to post in a board which considers what they do, and the risks they take, on a daily basis.

@Fishgodeep: Thanks! Reading the thread in reverse, so only read what you wrote before replying here.

A noob who's been here almost a year compared to your month and a half?

I'm sorry but 1100 posts on who's got the best strap and how many times a day you go jogging doesn't make your opinion any more valuable than someone's experience. Period.

And in that time I have purchased over 50 watches from several dealers condenscending YEARS worth of experiences into those self-same 2 months; posted to the best of my limited ability to make this forum a better place; and kept my whinging and personal attacks to a minimum.

From what I can see, this is much more than you have done in this one thread alone, so I'll thank you to keep your ad-hominen attacks to yourself. If not, please avoid me in future.

Yer lets talk about Salma's [censored] sorry Breasts again!

I'd rather talk of Pierce Brosnan's John admin!! Corrrrr!

(EDIT: LOL! Again...)

Allow me to first dry my eyes.

We had just, finally happily, moved on from politics in this thread, WT. And now you come. Come on, help us out.

If you think I don't want to riposte too, you're wrong, but some folks know when it's appropriate or not. Let's talk about watches...

TeeJay? Dunno. Sees himself as a saviour, I suppose, constantly repeating other people's posts, whilst never having dealt with either Jos or Andrew. Never will, now. His loss.

A defence of TeeJay:

He presents his points in coherent sentences, unlike many others...

He has shown himself honest and generous in other occasions (to me personally, though he may be embarrassed to read this).

And at heart, I think TeeJay ONLY cares for this board's well-fare. That to me, isn't a crank.

He just has very stiff principles, and like FxrAndy apparently, has put his foot down about these dealers. The difference is that he wants us to put our feet down too.

But that doesn't make what he's doing dishonourable. Tiresome, but not dishonourable.

@Corgi: I just echoed a lot of what you said about owning reps, in the DSN Fiddy thread!

If this gentleman is the person I suspect you to be refering to, I would not consider his opinion as unbiassed.

But no opinion is unbiased in the rep world. If you mean that they have a stake in continuing to tout Andrew/Joshua/King/Angus for whatever reason, such as monetary or kickbacks, then I would have to have that proven too.

The thread 'The Time Has Come to Say Something', linked to above, features plenty of sources, including quotes of emails and forum posts by both Andrew and Joshua.

Two prime examples (literally 'from the source') being:

Page 8, Post # 146

That's important, but still second-hand information from a newbie with 16 posts to his name.

I'm an Historian. I know first-hand sources are of utmost relevance and importance to any retelling. This link below, quoting directly from Joshua, is much more damning:

Page 14, Post #262

"Guys .. dun be a Pug", says Jos Nana. (Now I know where that comes from, Puggy!)

But if you read closely, he clarifies that someone has used Madison Avenue trickery in advertising their product as "Super", so he had to go one better and call it "Outstanding".

I presume later on it became "Ultimate", today, the sine qua non of rep descriptions.

(Amusingly, there was a thread on RWI where it was claimed for Ruby that she didn't know what an "Ultimate" was. That perhaps her English was substandard, or that she simply wasn't in the know, because some dealers use different terms. Come on)

So. Do you still believe this gentleman who says there is no Cartel, or do you believe what you have seen with your own eyes?

What I read is that Joshua claims only 4 dealers have a certain model of a certain marque. They have tried to outdo themselves in their description, though basically it's the same 2 models -- one Asian, one Swiss.

I don't want to be trenchant about this, but this doesn't amount to a cartel, IMHO.

It's not even sharp business practise, though it is close, I'll say that.

But until someone can prove to me that these 2/4 people have in some way closed off supplies in the whole of the rep world, so that they form an indissoluble monopoly where they have price-rigged all watch brands, then that is not what is being claimed -- a cartel.

That is a partnership. And a loose one at that.

"It was a run-by fruiting!"

(EDIT: OOPS! I realised this might lead to all kinds of interpretations based on Harrelson's pose, LOL. That was a quote from Mrs. Doubtfire, which had an eerily similar scene of Pierce Brosnan in a tiki-hut bar)

Dunno about wesson oil... can you use it on straps?

RIMSHOT!

But love the new avatar

My God, a lot of people have said that. And moreover, a lot of RWGers know who Tamara de Lempicka is since I've had two PMs and some comments on threads, about her.

How can I have expected anything else from you guys?

...leghumped by a bunch of crazies with watch fetishes.

You forget that I'm one of them!

God knows what other fetishes they may have.

There is a famous call-girl in Palm Beach who caters to rich old guys who can't do much any more, rompwise.

One old chap, whose name most of you Americans probably know, apparently likes for her to wear a yellow mac (a raincoat) and pretend she's jumping rain puddles.

That's it.

He enjoys himself, and she leaves with $500 of his money.

When I found out about that, and met him later on at a party, I found it really really hard not to laugh in his face.

And I made sure I was never left alone in the Breakers Hotel lift, afterwards...

Moral of the strory: a man is great to a woman, until he's proven a creep. After he's proven a creep, he can never be great again. EVER.

So RWG guys, if you have a fetish, that's great. Just never ever tell me, okay? Unless it involves Admin and some wesson oil.

trusty businessmen

Like dry water, this is a contradiction in terms.

The most you can ask businessmen, whose bottomline will ALWAYS be their pocketbooks, not OUR best interests, is that they stand behind their products or services.

Maybe I was born cynical, but I automatically expect people in business to fudge, and yes, sometimes to lie. Armed with that knowledge, I go in search not of the honest broker, but of the professional one.

I think your points are very well-taken about not wanting to be suckered into buying misrepresented items, and of course, that's the one point in this "cartel" talk that all of us agree upon.

But the truth as I see it is that neither of the gentlemen, to use Clive's eminently well-chosen phrase (Andrew is one, 100%) are boy scouts. They're businessmen. Let's use that information wisely.

OMG! I would be devastated, Clive. Such a beauty.

It was a hot day in Italy...

Yipes...thankfully, only crazy foreigners walk around in the Floridian heat. We go from a/c environment-to-a/c enviroment.

It is a before-and-after shot. Can you guess which part has had the Lord Sheraton treatment? :-)

NICE! I think have the same strap, if it's the pigskin one also bought from a member here, and which I have worn.

It felt really awful after my leather straps, thick and crusty. I'll buy that Lord Sheraton wotsit, and treat it ASAP! Mind you, I hang around Waitrose's, not Tescos.

(Yes, potentially going to London this December. Nice memory!)

Treating straps makes sense. If you had a nice pair of hand made shoes... you'd polish them, wouldn't you?

That's what I told Elliot, but who am I to argue with the great Fabrizio?

P.S.: Isn't it odd that the best cremes, and leather treatments come from Britain? In the last century, in the Victorian Era, the Russians had cornered the market on the best leather care, being justly famous for their hides.

But though Italian leather is the best in the world, I cannot think of one cream or conditioner from there, like Meltonian (which I had heard of) and this Lord Sheraton (which I hadn't).

- First off, there is a Cartel. Andrew and Joshua have openly admited it on other forums.

There is a gentleman on the forum who knows the ins-and-outs of the Guangzhou rep watch business, who says it's not a cartel.

However, from what I am led to believe, Andrew was brought into the business by Joshua, and they have remained very close associates.

Might this be in line with what you call a cartel? Extremely pal-sy Associates working (for some) in cahoots with each other?

- There are not two members in the Cartel, there are four. Andrew, Angus, Joshua and King.

If you back up your statements with a source, or some kind of reference, people would begin to meet you half-way, TeeJay. Until then, it's speculation, not to say something else.

Just got my first water stain on of all things, a PAV 90 strap ($269)...

I actually did this in the line of fire, since I was taking pics of my PAM 111h for a future Wrist-Check. I had the bright idea of holding a Starbucks plastic glass, and accidentally spilt water on it when taking the photo. DOOFUS Vic.

Elliot told me to use Meltonian Neutral on my Paci straps, saying that Fabrizio (the head leathermaker of the MP range) suggested it as the ONLY recommended leather care paste for their straps. In fact, he said that Fabrizio recommends not using anything most of the time, since they are meant to last.

I finally sourced a small jar on eBay, and when this happened, applied it on the stain. Nada.

So, just reading Ryyannon's crazy thread now (love it!), it led to thoughts of craziness.

What if I took one of my long fingernails and scratched ever so lightly, the stain out? Gulping hard, because I hate seeing that stain there...IT WORKED!

Stain gone, buffed lightly with a cloth which TWP sent me.

What other stain solutions have you found?

NOTE: I hate the texture of waterproof straps, so Lexol is out for me, but I heard that's good in general.

I think a lot of the 'Risti think that all reps are of terrible quality, and should be avoided on that basis alone. But a growing number are increasingly concerned, not because they feel like the genuine article aren't worth it, but because they are increasingly difficult to spot.

Agreed. Someone even linked to RWI, showing how the reps are getting better and better.

I've said this before, but there is no way to justify wearing a rep watch as much as I try. I'm doing something wrong, and I'm doing so because I'm cheap and want LOTS, instead of the few I had before.

Sure, there are a lot of people who have many reasons (they have gens, and are worried their watch may be stolen, etc. etc.), but I'd say about 90% of rep collectors can be described thusly.

Their attitude also stems from the fact that Panerai is a cult watch. It says something about you to be able to afford this watch, yes, but more importantly, TO KNOW about this watch.

And I think that most people who appreciate watches, I mean really and truly appreciate the creativity and the skill it goes into making one, cannot stand the fact that their loves are butchered by hacks in some workroom half way around the world.

Me, I can't afford a Caravaggio, Klimt or even Hockney. Some people don't mind putting up posters of reproductions of their works -- but I don't. It feels ...weird.

Strange, I know, and I'm fine if people disagree but in that sense I can understand where the Risti are about, when they sniff their noses in the air about rep watches.

Well, this year my 'month-long break' is actually spliced in four 1-week-long (1-week-short, I would say ) breaks.

Nice! The Lago Como/Dolomites having been one?

3rd instalment will be on the 2nd week of September, for a Tai Chi stage on an island, practicing 9 hours a day, and 4th instalment on 1st week of November, for scuba diving in Madagascar on the hunt for Whale Shark.

I HAVE NEVER wanted to go to Madagascar. There is a reason, and it involves one of their most abundant "things" on the island. *shiver*

But my God, scuba diving for Whale Sharks?? SSsurfer, you are Superman, and I love it!

No access to internet for me on those weeks, so don't worry if you will not see me around: I will not be ignoring (or even forgetting) you.

Sucks, dude.

Just some minor flaws like declared F-series while the 005 started with G-series (no 005F around).

Oh geez, that's as bad as when he misspelt Officine...or was that Panerai?

Oh, and a too large and misplaced mosca (the Pre-V OP logo), too.

Heh, it's called a "fly"? Thanks for adding to my knowledge base!

I should really take a look at your guides in your .sig.

Uhm... I was not talking about gen-vs-rep owners' gazes, but about your charm.

My poor English and this 'typing effect' (no visual expression, no voice pitch) seem able to kill any compliments. I'll have to restrict them and/or make them clearer...

I understand you plenty well. And you are VERY mistaken about your English. I used to be an ESOL instructor, and you are streets ahead of my students there.

But trust an Italian to want to use his whole body to convey a message.

No wonder Orianna Fallaci refused to interview people on the phone!

Don't take me too harsh, but I'm glad to keep me out from environments that kind.

I won't, don't worry. In a sense you are right.

And although you are correct in thinking that comes from a certain social background, let me tell you that I have found people are even more judgemental when they are middle-class or working class.

It's just that in those situations, they cannot really do much to harm you, because the higher you go the more it is about power. Cosa pu

The merging then? I don't really know.

I just finished reading the replies on THAT thread. So, if you will permit a reply to Offshore since the thread is closed.

No, I'm not suggesting a potential merger.

Victoria, that is most definitely what I meant. That's my chubster of an 8 month old.

She's beautiful.

Reality is truly where dreams are made into facts.

"Reality is the name we give to our disappointments." - Mason Cooley

AH! Perhaps you meant:

"The reality is more excellent than the report." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

FRIDAY

My PAM 210 base from our very own TWP, on a very lovely Strap Culture strap -- the Historic Brown #2 for their Radiomir collection.

The base PAMs are, IMHO, more choice than their more intricate ones. In fact, the more GMTs, subdials, seconds hands, and what-nots a Panerai watch has, the less appealing it looks to me now. What a difference from just 2 months ago, when I thought the exact opposite!

YARRR!!

SATURDAY

Only RWG knows the story, but this is my Davidsen Fiddy on black, stitchless Savage (of RWI) strap. And a friend. And a BFWP because he sometimes sleeps with me. Ka-ching!

M-I-C ... K-E-Y ... F-I-D-D-Y

Me looking up the Voisin roadster on Vehix.com. Wow, bad resale value. I think I'll get more on the Auto Trader.

SUNDAY

On Sunday, I actually have a rum do, so I am trotting out the Cartier Santos in SS. I'll be wearing black, and let me tell you, nothing looks as good on black on a lady as a Cartier Santos.

I've actually been to the Alberto Santos Dumont museum-home in Petropolis, outside of Rio. Funny chap. Great watch.